Munster V Castres H/C Rnd5 - Sat 14th @ 15:40

Flincher · 15-01-2012 01:15AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Lawes is currently injured and to be honest I think he gets unfair stick on here as the majority of his hits are not illegal just big (and with his engine he's capable of being in the position of making a lot of them in a game). Either way the actions of one player doesn't give a poster the right to label NH as a team who will go out with the aim to injure Munster players due to bruised ego's (I actually cant see how their ego's would be bruised in the first place).

How are they far from first choice, who else do you expect to be brought in against Munster? I think everyone that was missing today is unlikely to make it next week. I thought both the Scarlets and NH were dire today. I agree NH were good against Quins but that doesn't cover up how poor they've been for the majority of the season. They have also moved the game away from the Gardens so despite it being a sell out playing at home wont be quite the advantage it otherwise would have been.

Lawes deservedly has a rep for the late and dirty hits with the shoulder. Tell Gonzalo Tiesi he doesn't go out to injure people.I wouldn't agree with anyone labelling Saints as a club who go out to injure. Ashton, Hartley and Lamb seem like assholes, but I wouldn't regard them as a dirty club at all.

I'd expect Saints to change to bring in Dickson, Lamb, Downey and Day. They are also without Lawes, Wood and Clarke, so that is a good 7 changes they would ideally make to the team that played today.

CiaranMT · 15-01-2012 01:15AM

Dougie, Fla and Wally (all starters) are pushing on too.

GerM · 15-01-2012 01:18AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wrt to the others, I don't see why you think POC will wind down so soon, Shawe played great stuff for the Lions at 37 and we have a good few replacement locks in the system. Hopefully by the time POC steps aside, POM or someone else will have been captain for a while.

Shaw was 35 with the Lions and none of the other locks are close to POC in any shape or form. He was a nailed on starter for Ireland from the age of 22. POC's game is based on athleticism and mobility and time waits for no man.

Amazotheamazing · 15-01-2012 01:22AM

CiaranMT wrote: »

Dougie, Fla and Wally (all starters) are pushing on too.

Didn't include them because they all have serious injuries and it's unknowable if they'll come back as good as they were.

I could equally include injured players like Sherry (23) or Butler (21, probable backrow cover in Wallace and Ronan's absence but for injury).

It'll be interesting to see what A team we can send to Ulster this weekend.

Kilcoyne/Ryan
Sherry/Henry
Ryan/Condon
Nagle
Foley
DOCv2.0
BOH
Butler (if fit)
Williams
Cusack/Deasy
?
Hanrahan/Deasy/Dineen
Gleeson/Hircock
O'Dea
Scanlon

With the exception of outhalf and wing, that's not a bad team.

Amazotheamazing · 15-01-2012 01:39AM

GerM wrote: »

Shaw was 35 with the Lions and none of the other locks are close to POC in any shape or form. He was a nailed on starter for Ireland from the age of 22. POC's game is based on athleticism and mobility and time waits for no man.

Even so, 35 is still a bit off for POC.

It'll be interesting to see who steps up now that places have opened up, or can DOC raise his game again. I really thought today was a day when Ryan put himself forward for Ireland, and marked himself out as a player in his own right.

Fireball07 · 15-01-2012 02:00AM

Ryan has very good hands for a 2nd row imo, he's pretty athletic, he's fast enough, carries fairly well and his work rate is huge.

Tuohy's been excellent too but I wouldn't have any worries about Ryan starting.

Brian · 15-01-2012 03:39AM

The age gap between Pete and all the other guys in the scrum is kind of depressing.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 09:19AM

CiaranMT wrote: »

I'd take McCarthy over Toner.

Whoever it is, they shouldn't play at all as theyll be 4th choice. Therefore Id take Toner, no point wasting that squad time on a player of McCarthy's age.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 09:22AM

Fireball07 wrote: »

Ryan has very good hands for a 2nd row imo, he's pretty athletic, he's fast enough, carries fairly well and his work rate is huge.

Tuohy's been excellent too but I wouldn't have any worries about Ryan starting.

Agreed.

Ryan seems like a great presence in the field as well.

Foxtrol · 15-01-2012 10:51AM

Flincher wrote: »

Lawes deservedly has a rep for the late and dirty hits with the shoulder. Tell Gonzalo Tiesi he doesn't go out to injure people.I wouldn't agree with anyone labelling Saints as a club who go out to injure. Ashton, Hartley and Lamb seem like assholes, but I wouldn't regard them as a dirty club at all.

I'd expect Saints to change to bring in Dickson, Lamb, Downey and Day. They are also without Lawes, Wood and Clarke, so that is a good 7 changes they would ideally make to the team that played today.

As I was saying he has a rep but I think the level of abuse he gets here is unwarranted. The majority of his big hits are fine to boarderline. I've seen much older Munster (and other provinces) players put in plenty of worse "dirty" acts on the pitch but they don't get the same rep. Lawes is young and overly enthusiastic but he'll learn. I'm glad you agree with me on the nonsense of the original poster saying that the Northampton team would be going out to intentionally injure Munster because of "brusied egos" (still haven't worked out how they got bruised in the first place).

I dont see much difference between Dickson and Roberts, against a team like Munster I'd choose Myler over Lamb, despite his start of the game idiotics I think May is a much better and more rounded player than Downey and Day wouldn't make too much difference. They were pretty much at full strength yesterday against Scarlets and any change will be to bring back one of the injuries (unlikely) or for general rotation but it would any rotation in my opinion wont make them a better team than yesterday.

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 11:09AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I suspect we probably will buy someone in to replace O'Gara, after all, it's unrealistic to expect us to produce a legend as good as O'Gara just as O'Gara retires.

With the impending new NIQ rules it will be difficult to sign anybody of serious quality to replace O'Gara. The best you will get is a stop-gap NIQ for a season or two but the reality is Munster will have to unearth an Irish ten sooner rather than later. Keatley might be the guy but for now the jurys out on him..

danthefan · 15-01-2012 11:11AM

Suggesting Laws tried to injure Tiesi is cometely stupid imo. It was a textbook tackle and marginally late, but no worse than tackles you see in every single game. Hence he was not cited.

buck65 · 16-01-2012 08:43AM

O Gara will be impossible to replace in terms of game management and place kicking, let's not forget that he struggles in the tackle and pace departments, something Keatley doesn't do. ROG has another season at this level in him max. after that he'll be coming off the bench in Munster like he will with Ireland for another season and then possible retirement.
He'll be around for a couple of years so Keatley will have time to learn and improve.
Keatley is the future though. A fine outhalf - Give him time.

Judgement Day · 16-01-2012 09:21AM

ROG to start for Ireland until after the 2015 RWC with that fella from Leinster coming off the bench if needed.

phog · 16-01-2012 09:23AM

I haven't seen the full game on TV yet buy my thoughts from seeing it live and bits on TV. We really had this game in the bag but just weren't clinical enough with the try line in sight. Last year we seemed to lack penetration but were scoring more tries this year, this year we seem to have improved in making the yards but we need to score more tries. We're decent enough in defending our try line but we missed out on a few tries on Saturday.

Our Scrum, Lineout and mauling has improved dramatically from last year. 5 from 5 is good but it could have been better, still happy going into round 6 and qualified already.

profitius · 16-01-2012 09:41AM

danthefan wrote: »

Suggesting Laws tried to injure Tiesi is cometely stupid imo. It was a textbook tackle and marginally late, but no worse than tackles you see in every single game. Hence he was not cited.

In soccer terms "slightly late" can mean the difference between winning the ball and breaking someones leg.

Lawes is what you might call wreckless. He might not go out to injure somebody but it looks like hes far more concerned about putting in one of his big hits for the camera than he is about the opposition player getting injured.

profitius · 16-01-2012 09:54AM

I'm not too concerned about ROG leaving Munster. Keatley is there and Hanrahan will be soon. ROGS greatest strength is he is a winner. Despite having areas of weakness to his game he has made the most of what he has got and you'd have to admire that whether you like or dislike ROG.

Keatley and Hanrahan will give Munster an attacking dimension that ROG cannot offer. I think successful rugby in Europe has gone form more kicking and less running to less kicking and more running.

Benny Cake · 16-01-2012 10:09AM

profitius wrote: »

I'm not too concerned about ROG leaving Munster. Keatley is there and Hanrahan will be soon. ROGS greatest strength is he is a winner. Despite having areas of weakness to his game he has made the most of what he has got and you'd have to admire that whether you like or dislike ROG.

Keatley and Hanrahan will give Munster an attacking dimension that ROG cannot offer. I think successful rugby in Europe has gone form more kicking and less running to less kicking and more running.

That's a mighty big statement. Imagine Munster this season without ROG? We have to sort out our midfield before we contemplate moving to a running game. We have also seen a good bit of Keatley this season & I remain to be convinced. As for Hanhranan, anointing him as the second coming is premature at best.

profitius · 16-01-2012 10:30AM

Benny Cake wrote: »

That's a mighty big statement. Imagine Munster this season without ROG? We have to sort out our midfield before we contemplate moving to a running game. We have also seen a good bit of Keatley this season & I remain to be convinced. As for Hanhranan, anointing him as the second coming is premature at best.

ROG got the drop goals but say if Keatley was there maybe Munster wouldn't have needed a drop goal to win the match. Not taking anything away from ROG, very few international 10's would have been able to get those 2 kicks. Too many times this season when I watch Munster the attacking play has broken down with ROG while Keatley has made numerous line breaks. So you have to balance those things. As well as the yardage the opposition makes by running at ROG.

As for Hanrahan, as I said I can only go on what I've seen. I didn't see him often but with some players you don't have to. Its obvious they have natural ability others don't. I didn't have to see Messi play much to know he has bags of talent. Of course attitude and belief comes into it too. Jeremy Staunton was rated higher than ROG at underage level but we know who had the better career by miles.

theKramer · 16-01-2012 11:35AM

Good read on Munsterfans on Munsters back play. How its setup and what the "plan" is if there is any: http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/30505-Munster-s-back-play-this-season

Well worth a read to see what they are trying to do.

I dont know anything about back play, so dont know if its a good system or not. Obviously the players we have, ROG, Mafi, Earls in the 10, 12, 13 positions probably dont help....

phog · 16-01-2012 12:22PM

Some photos from the game are up on Munster rugby site

Here's one form Scrum.com

twinytwo · 17-01-2012 08:21PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wian - 29
Varley - 28
Botha - 32
POC - 32
Ryan - 28
POM - 22
Ronan - 29
Coughlan - 31

Average age 28.875

Murray - 22
O'Gara - 34
Zebo - 22
Mafi - 29
Earls - 24
Murphy - 27
Hurley - 27

Average age 26.43

Horan - 34
Archer - 23
Fogs - 28
DOC - 32
Holland - 26
TOL - 28
Keatley - 24
Barnes - 22

Average age 27.125

Are Munster really that old? Average across the 23 is 27.48

Add wallace,flannery and doug back in and yes they are

profitius · 17-01-2012 11:51PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wian - 29
Varley - 28
Botha - 32
POC - 32
Ryan - 28
POM - 22
Ronan - 29
Coughlan - 31

Average age 28.875

Murray - 22
O'Gara - 34
Zebo - 22
Mafi - 29
Earls - 24
Murphy - 27
Hurley - 27

Average age 26.43

Horan - 34
Archer - 23
Fogs - 28
DOC - 32
Holland - 26
TOL - 28
Keatley - 24
Barnes - 22

Average age 27.125

Are Munster really that old? Average across the 23 is 27.48

The average age is coming down fast in the past few seasons. Sherry, POM, TOD, DOC2, Butler, Murray, Keatley, Jones, Keatley, Zebo, Archer, Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Nagle, Barnes, O'Dea, Scanlon... Theres 17 names there and they all came in in the last year or so and all about 25 or under. Looking ahead the future looks healthy.

shuffol · 18-01-2012 12:10AM

The 3 oldest players are the difference between a top side and a very average side.

Fireball07 · 18-01-2012 12:21AM

shuffol wrote: »

The 3 oldest players are the difference between a top side and a very average side.

That's the sad thing...

Add in Wallace who was very close to top class before his injury, and Dougie aswell. Plus Flannery was as good a hooker as there was in Europe before his injuries set in.

Podge_irl · 18-01-2012 12:27AM

profitius wrote: »

The average age is coming down fast in the past few seasons. Sherry, POM, TOD, DOC2, Butler, Murray, Keatley, Jones, Keatley, Zebo, Archer, Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Nagle, Barnes, O'Dea, Scanlon... Theres 17 names there and they all came in in the last year or so and all about 25 or under. Looking ahead the future looks healthy.

Really? Most of them are getting naff all game time. This has always been Munster's problem. While I obviously know more about Leinster's young players, I get the impression that they get a lot more game time. Has Keatley seen any HEC game time? Murray went from nowhere to first choice very quickly due to the sheer ineptitude of the incumbents. There is an argument that he should have seen game time sooner though. I've barely seen plenty of those other players you've mentioned.

Munster's problem isn't so much an ageing squad anyway. It's an ageing, utterly average squad. Mafi, Murphy, Hurley, Ronan, Coughlan, Varley and Du Preez are all 27 or over and simply aren't anything to write home about. The three best old players are all fairly old and on the way out.

There is also the fact that Munster are going to have to accept that ROG is holding them back at some point. While there are many reasons their backs have been so inept this season I don't understand why he is escaping so much blame. The pack isn't good enough to play a 10 man game anymore.

shuffol · 18-01-2012 12:28AM

Fireball07 wrote: »

That's the sad thing...

Add in Wallace who was very close to top class before his injury, and Dougie aswell. Plus Flannery was as good a hooker as there was in Europe before his injuries set in.

Hard guys to replace too, everybodys after THs and the new rules will make that a big problem, POC isnt just a great player, he's probably one of the most inspirational players in Irish history, he reminds me of some mythical Irish warrior. ROG is just an enigma, its hard to explain the things he does on a rugby field.

profitius · 18-01-2012 12:44AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Really? Most of them are getting naff all game time. This has always been Munster's problem. While I obviously know more about Leinster's young players, I get the impression that they get a lot more game time. Has Keatley seen any HEC game time? Murray went from nowhere to first choice very quickly due to the sheer ineptitude of the incumbents. There is an argument that he should have seen game time sooner though. I've barely seen plenty of those other players you've mentioned.

Munster's problem isn't so much an ageing squad anyway. It's an ageing, utterly average squad. Mafi, Murphy, Hurley, Ronan, Coughlan, Varley and Du Preez are all 27 or over and simply aren't anything to write home about. The three best old players are all fairly old and on the way out.

There is also the fact that Munster are going to have to accept that ROG is holding them back at some point. While there are many reasons their backs have been so inept this season I don't understand why he is escaping so much blame. The pack isn't good enough to play a 10 man game anymore.

I was looking towards a few years down the line.

The middle tier of players are indeed very average. They're not bad but not at the level you need to win HECs. We do have a higher quality of player coming through now finally. The best Munster players are over 30 and 25 or under with the exception of Donnacha Ryan.

I agree about ROG and I mentioned it a few times in the last few weeks. Its hard to play running rugby with him at 10 but theres no way he'll be dropped.

Fireball07 · 18-01-2012 01:01AM

shuffol wrote: »

Hard guys to replace too, everybodys after THs and the new rules will make that a big problem, POC isnt just a great player, he's probably one of the most inspirational players in Irish history, he reminds me of some mythical Irish warrior. ROG is just an enigma, its hard to explain the things he does on a rugby field.

It's true. POC and ROG are once-off players, I don't know if we'll see players like them for a long time. We might get players who are better in their own way but those 2 have dragged Munster through this HC campaign, POC is just incredible tbh. And I know ROG didn't always have that knack of being able to do the right thing, but I can't see Keatley ever being able to reach that level. I hope I'm wrong but I don't.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Really? Most of them are getting naff all game time. This has always been Munster's problem. While I obviously know more about Leinster's young players, I get the impression that they get a lot more game time. Has Keatley seen any HEC game time? Murray went from nowhere to first choice very quickly due to the sheer ineptitude of the incumbents. There is an argument that he should have seen game time sooner though. I've barely seen plenty of those other players you've mentioned.

Munster's problem isn't so much an ageing squad anyway. It's an ageing, utterly average squad. Mafi, Murphy, Hurley, Ronan, Coughlan, Varley and Du Preez are all 27 or over and simply aren't anything to write home about. The three best old players are all fairly old and on the way out.

There is also the fact that Munster are going to have to accept that ROG is holding them back at some point. While there are many reasons their backs have been so inept this season I don't understand why he is escaping so much blame. The pack isn't good enough to play a 10 man game anymore.

Keatley got a couple of minutes but yeah, he probably should get more. But then...in a tight game, I wouldn't trust him atm. Maybe at centre, but you can't take off ROG when there's only a score in it.

I think it's slightly unfair though, McGahan has actually blooded a lot of young players, I think Munster used more players than any other team in the Magners League last year. He's given them gametime, some of them have got more than others but I don't know if they're all that good. But from what I've seen, the standard is improving. Luke O'Dea looks like a very promising player and Zebo has lots of raw talent. POM has stepped up big time and looks like he could be a top class player. Butler was getting gametime before his injury, but he's still very young, his time will come. Same with DOC2 and others. I think things are getting a lot better and the players are coming along steadily. They won't all make it, or all be good enough, that's not possible but I'm less worried than I was a couple of years ago.

As for them being average- I think you're being a little unfair to some of them. Varley is underrated imo, I don't think there's much difference between him and Cronin. I think Varley is a better scrummager although Cronin has devastating turn of pace.

Mafi is a strange one, he has lots of talent. Okay he hasn't always played like he can and he's hugely frustrating but I wouldn't say he's average.

Podge_irl · 18-01-2012 01:01AM

profitius wrote: »

I was looking towards a few years down the line.

Then I'd agree. Though the issue is that many of the current middle-aged (in rugby terms) average players were seen as promising youngsters at one point. They really need to be given a real shot. The last thing Munster and Irish rugby need is for players like DRyan to be getting their breakthrough in their late 20s. It is unfortunately, imo, no coincidence that Leinster failed to qualify for the QFs the year before they became champions. Failure has the benefit of allowing you to rebuild properly, which is something Munster have yet to really do.

There is no way ROG will be dropped because of things like his 2 last minute drop goals. He's holding Munster back in every other facet though. He is an absolutely perfect impact sub at 10. He is genuinely brilliant in that role and he needs to move into it sooner rather then later for Munster.

Munster V Castres H/C Rnd5 - Sat 14th @ 15:40

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