Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

this is a prime example of point scoring as opposed to discussing what we were actually talking about.

I'll remind you of the thread of thought that we were talking about.

You said that there's a massive drop off in talent from Leamy to the remainder of the Irish back rows available.

I gave you 6 players that would be very upset to hear this, as they'd all believe that they're better either now, or will be than Leamy.

You claimed that the 3 elder statesmen of the group are decent committed players but incomparable to a fully fit Leamy.

I said that we haven't seen that in 4 years, and that if we were talking about the present that Henry in particular has been far better than Leamy in recent months.

You decided to derail this train of thought because you took exception to my use of the word incredible.

I've been getting fed up of some of the inane bull**** that some people on here have decided that the forum needs to engage in. This used to be a place where knowledgeable posters were able to talk about potential Irish superstars without turning it into a pissing contest about which province's head coach bloods more players. It used to be a place where people would objectively and constructively discuss players on their merits, and not their jersey colour.

Seems like an awfully long time since we've done the above without descending into tripe.

What's with the high moral ground?

Apart from the CA game, Ulster haven't played that many good teams and certainly haven't been playing well, and Henry is part of that.

My point, and I stick to it, is that Leamy was a great bench option because all season he's been coming on and providing a big impact, which is the role that the sub backrower will have to perform for Ireland.

There is still a gap between what Leamy can provide and Henry does provide.
I genuinely wouldn't have Henry on the bench for the 6 nations, whereas a fit (or non-too-injured most likely) Leamy would have been there.

08-01-2012 03:10PM

you have no way of saying that there's a gap between Leamy and Henry if you haven't watched Henry this year.

It's that easy.

I wouldn't have either of them on the bench for the 6N either tbh.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:14PM

GerM wrote: »

I don't think many people debate that he was a fantastic player. But the issue is that he's never going to be the player he was. When fit now, his best is nowhere near what it once was and I'd disagree that he still performs as a top player does. Injuries have robbed him of his top level form and there's very little in the last 2-3 years that has come close to the level he showed in the season Munster first won the HEC when he was one of the best back row players in Europe undoubtedly. His role in Irish rugby now reflects where he is in terms of the performances he is capable of. He's an impact sub. With all fit, he's probably third choice blindside for Munster. He was the only man not to get a start in the WC and really only travelled out of DK's approach of familiarity and loyalty.

I disagree, Kidney isn't that loyal, look at how he treated guys like TOL, Fitz or Stringer. If he felt there was a better option he'd have been brought.

Leamy was brought because he can come on and do a job at a high level. There's no way Kidney left a better player behind. To even say that is strange imo, Kidney has never had much problem cutting players.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

you have no way of saying that there's a gap between Leamy and Henry if you haven't watched Henry this year.

It's that easy.

I wouldn't have either of them on the bench for the 6N either tbh.

I have seen Ulster this year, just not seen the games where Henry approached Int level.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 03:17PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I disagree, Kidney isn't that loyal, look at how he treated guys like TOL, Fitz or Stringer. If he felt there was a better option he'd have been brought.

Leamy was brought because he can come on and do a job at a high level. There's no way Kidney left a better player behind. To even say that is strange imo, Kidney has never had much problem cutting players.

Since you were badgering me about Henry how about you give some examples of when Leamy was so "great" for Ireland? In his 8 mins against a beaten Italy? Against Russia, the worst team in the RWC? Against Australia... oh wait.

Hagz · 08-01-2012 03:19PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Kidney has never had much problem cutting players.

Tony Buckley.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:21PM

danthefan wrote: »

Since you were badgering me about Henry how about you give some examples of when Leamy was so "great"? In his 8 mins against a beaten Italy? Against Russia, the worst team in the RWC? Against Australia... oh wait.

Thought he was great whenever he came on because it's not an easy thing to do at that level. I don't recall any significant depreciation when he came on, and when you think of who's he's coming on for that's high praise. But if you want me to downgrade "great" to merely "no discernible tail off in play" I'll go along with that too.

I assume you already agree he's been top class in the HEC since you're not making an issue of it.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 03:22PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Thought he was great whenever he came on because it's not an easy thing to do at that level. I don't recall any significant depreciation when he came on, and when you think of who's he's coming on for that's high praise. But if you want me to downgrade "great" to merely "no discernible tail off in play" I'll go along with that too.

I assume you already agree he's been top class in the HEC since you're not making an issue of it.

He has been in the past. Not recently though, as him being dropped will testify to.

On the international front he is an order of magnitude below SOB, Ferris, Heaslip or Wallace.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:25PM

Hagz wrote: »

Tony Buckley.

John Hayes...

Who else should have travelled as replacement tighthead? Like I said, Kidney cut Hayes...

Even in this six nations, Buckley is likely to be included as who else is there?

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:26PM

danthefan wrote: »

He has been in the past. Not recently though, as him being dropped will testify to.

Nah, he was a gamechanger against Saints and Castres.

GerM · 08-01-2012 03:27PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Leamy was brought because he can come on and do a job at a high level. There's no way Kidney left a better player behind. To even say that is strange imo, Kidney has never had much problem cutting players.

We can all list multiple examples of his loyalty to players that are past their best whether they're from Munster, Leinster or Timbuktu. To say that he has no problem cutting players is the only strange comment.

Kidney brought him, made him the only player not to start a game in the tournament and gave him a few minutes at the end of games as a run out. Can you point out a game in the WC where he came on and made a big impact? He got his biggest run against Russia where he did well overall but is best remembered for butchering a try and causing a knock on that led to Russia's try. He has played very well in his cameos for Munster but he is a fading force and is down the pecking order now. He hasn't been first choice at his province for some time. On his current ability, he shouldn't be involved in the Irish squad ahead of POM, Henry, McCarthy or McLaughlin.

padraig.od · 08-01-2012 03:30PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Nah, he was a gamechanger against Saints and Castres.

Definitely made a big impact when he cam eon v Saints. He'll be missed this season.

astonaidan · 08-01-2012 03:31PM

GerM wrote: »

Ah yes, but you support Munster.

When I say hard man, I mean that he had a mean streak in him. He copped a couple of suspensions when younger including a nasty incident in the AIL that saw him banned for a stretch. By his own admission he was over the top in his youth and it was only after a couple of years in the Munster set up that it calmed down which coincided with him playing his best rugby around 2006. He often seemed to get involved in off the ball stuff. Sure even Buckley, the most relaxed man to ever take the field, knocked him out cold in training!

I dont really support Munster its just my favourite players are on the team, Which I will admit Leamy is one of them, Saying that I like SOB for the same reason I like Leamy in that hes seriously aggresive, But as ive already said I like Neil Best so maybe I have a problem

Hagz · 08-01-2012 03:35PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

John Hayes...

Who else should have travelled as replacement tighthead? Like I said, Kidney cut Hayes...

Even in this six nations, Buckley is likely to be included as who else is there?

I'm not talking about the world cup, I'm talking about his persistence with Buckley before it. It doesn't even have to be Buckley, I could also use O'Leary as an example. Every one of us could see that TOL wasn't good enough and he waits till before the WC to drop him/

As for this 6 nations, Jamie Hagan. The bench prop will be Court and Hagan should be the replacement TH in the squad. No reason why he shouldn't be.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 03:35PM

GerM wrote: »

We can all list multiple examples of his loyalty to players that are past their best whether they're from Munster, Leinster or Timbuktu. To say that he has no problem cutting players is the only strange comment.

Kidney brought him, made him the only player not to start a game in the tournament and gave him a few minutes at the end of games as a run out. Can you point out a game in the WC where he came on and made a big impact? He got his biggest run against Russia where he did well overall but is best remembered for butchering a try and causing a knock on that led to Russia's try. He has played very well in his cameos for Munster but he is a fading force and is down the pecking order now. He hasn't been first choice at his province for some time. On his current ability, he shouldn't be involved in the Irish squad ahead of POM, Henry, McCarthy or McLaughlin.

I've watched, I'd say, 80%+ of the games Kidney has coached in the last decade and all the way through Kidney has actually been ruthless enough, once a better option comes through, and that's the important qualification. People think he's overly loyal because they over-estimate the players they are championing or because the player they are championing are on the verge of winning a place anyway.

In 2008 for example, he dropped Stringer, Payne and Foley after the pool stages. Last season he cut Hayes, TOL and Fitz (and Horan). I genuinely don't think he holds on to his favourites in the same way EOS did. In 2007 EOS went to the RWC without Bowe or Heaslip, I could never seen Kidney leaving that sort of talent out.

GerM · 08-01-2012 03:35PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I assume you already agree he's been top class in the HEC since you're not making an issue of it.

Yes. He was very good in the HEC against McCusker, Welch, Morgan, Bornman, Clark and Wilson: the cream of European rugby. Masoe was the only quality back row player he's met and that bloke was out on his feet by the end of that match from carrying his pack. There's a gulf between that and playing against Dusautoir, Bonnaire, Warburton, Lydiate, Haskell and Croft.

I don't see the issue with admitting Leamy is a fading force and he's not the player he was. It's been a couple of years since he has been able to go toe to toe with the top players. Great player but his time has passed and Ireland should be looking at players the right side of thirty now.

boynesider · 08-01-2012 03:36PM

Henry's a good player but Peter o'mahony is potentially world class and I fully expect kidney to have him on the bench for the 6 nations. The likes of Henry and McLaughlin would be next in the queue though.

GerM · 08-01-2012 03:47PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

In 2008 for example, he dropped Stringer, Payne and Foley after the pool stages. Last season he cut Hayes, TOL and Fitz (and Horan). I genuinely don't think he holds on to his favourites in the same way EOS did. In 2007 EOS went to the RWC without Bowe or Heaslip, I could never seen Kidney leaving that sort of talent out.

Hayes dropped due to injury; he was still ahead of Ross in the pecking order going into the 2011 6N until injury hit both him and Buckley at the same time. Horan due to injury in 2009. Foley was getting old and way off the pace; it would have been insanity to continue with him. Payne was persuaded out of retirement for that season; he was 36! Fitz had to have three or four high profile nightmares before he was dropped. DK is noted as an extremely conservative coach and always has been.

CatFromHue · 08-01-2012 03:54PM

I was in the shop earlier and there was a solely rugby newspaper The Rugby News or something like that. I've never seen or heard of it before. According to it Munster are interested in Cardiff's Casey LuaLua. Seemingly he could be persuaded to leave Cardiff due to the new salary cap in the Welsh regions.

Don't know how true this is though.

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2012 03:57PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I have seen Ulster this year, just not seen the games where Henry approached Int level.

He was the best player on the pitch against Clermont by an absolute mile.

If you were unable to see that then it easily explains how you are so confused about Leamy's level of ability.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 04:03PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He was the best player on the pitch against Clermont by an absolute mile.

If you were unable to see that then it easily explains how you are so confused about Leamy's level of ability.

Even against Leicester with his team well beaten he put in a huge effort. Think he had the most tackles of anyone by a margin.

Leamy put in 8 great minutes at the RWC though, don't forget that.

Hagz · 08-01-2012 04:05PM

I'd like to get Jaco's opinion given that he would have the most insight into Henry's performances.

CatFromHue · 08-01-2012 04:07PM

danthefan wrote: »

Even against Leicester with his team well beaten he put in a huge effort. Think he had the most tackles of anyone by a margin.

According to ESPN Henry made 14 tackles in that game, Ferris the slacker only made 2!

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 04:09PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

According to ESPN Henry made 14 tackles in that game, Ferris the slacker only made 2!

Clear proof Henry is miles better than Ferris, I take it all back...

RuggieBear · 08-01-2012 04:13PM

enough of the ad hominen arguing folks. no more warnings

Cpt_Blackbeard · 08-01-2012 06:07PM

The injury plague continues..

Word on MunsterFans that Leamy is looking at a 4month layoff as, he needs surgery on his hip. Fingers crossed that he doesn't go the way of Dowling.

CatFromHue · 08-01-2012 06:12PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The injury plague continues..

Word on MunsterFans that Leamy is looking at a 4month layoff as, he needs surgery on his hip. Fingers crossed that he doesn't go the way of Dowling.

Wasn't Dowlings pretty bad the minute it happened? i.e. he was taken straight to hospital.

My understanding is that Leamy's had been niggling him for awhile. So to me it looks like two completely separate injurys.

phog · 08-01-2012 10:47PM

Saw this over on MFs.

BJ BOTHA FROM BEHIND THE ST PAYWALL

On difference between NH and SH forward play:
“It’s harder work. It’s slower. It’s more impacts. Heavier ground. It’s really dog work. The scrumming was never as intense down south with us in South Africa as it is here. In tight phases, whether it’s a drive or a lineout, it was not as intense because you can play the ball a lot. Not saying that they can’t do it here but I just feel it is more diffficult here.”

Playing tighhead:
“I’m glad I moved from loosehead to tight head – the confrontation but also the accountability you have there. You need to be accountable. The majority of the time, when they look at a scrum that went badly, they look at you. You live up to the challenge. Wheatever they bring you, you just have to bury them again and again and again. That’s the key. You have to stand up each week.”

Experience as a player:
“When I was younger I got myself into a situation where you think about it too much. With a little bit of experience, you give yourself more room to….you’re more relaxed until you hit the field. At that stage something takes over you that you can’t explain. You’re in your own little world and can’t even hear the crowd. That’s the kind of situation I find myself in.
When I was younger you got on the field and you were buzzing. It lasts 10 minutes and then it’s over. To work yourself through a game, to really be ready for contact, ready for each scrum – you need concentration. You can’t concentrate when you’re in that mental state that you’re hyped up and ready to run through a brick wall”

Move to Munster from Belfast:
“You can imagine, I was taking them [wife and family] out of their comfort zone [settled in Belfast with other SA player families about] coming here. But from a rugby point of view – not saying that’s the most important thing – but that’s the reason we are over here. I’m not here for a holiday. They understand that, they know it’s just temporary”.

New IRFU NIQ Guidelines:
“You hear about that but whether it’s going to happen or not is also another debate. So you hold onto the fact that it’s not going to.”

Playing with Munster:
“There’s a special vibe coming through. I’m enjoying it. It’s nice to be in a team like this where we have direction and know where we’re going. It’s a journey. When you come to a big organisation like Munster you have to fight for your respect. Actions speak louder than words. You put your body on the line and show that you’re buying into everything here. Hopefully, I’ve done that a small bit”.

Interesting that he see NH rugby as being harder and more impacts in the game. Also, he doesn't as yet seem to be losing too much sleep over the new NIQ rules.

I also read on twitter that he was being interviewed for Emerald rugby over the week-end.

edited to add - actually, that may well have been the same journalist and interview, his twitter profile said he was with Emerald Rugby, he may also work for the Sunday Times.

09-01-2012 01:04AM

so good from the game the other night

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM

phog · 09-01-2012 09:09AM

More injury woes :mad:

With Leamy and Tommy O’Donnell forced out for a long spell, and with resources further stretched by doubts about Niall Ronan’s availability for this Saturday’s clash with Castres, McGahan will be forced to test the depth of his squad.

MUNSTER will be anxiously awaiting news of Paddy Butler’s fitness after the backrower injured his shoulder in Shannon’s Ulster Bank League loss to Blackrock on Saturday.

Butler would be the natural choice for Tony McGahan to call on to replace long-term injury victim Denis Leamy, but he left the field after less than five minutes at Stradbrook clutching the same shoulder he has previously injured.

A Shannon spokesperson said Butler would undergo a scan today to determine the extent of the injury.

Both quotes from the Examiner.ie

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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