Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Instead of trying to divert the topic, would you not just address the point that I made instead of the manner that I made it in? It makes for actual debate instead of snide point-scoring

Henry's season has been far and above Leamy's.

I did address the point, in no way should Henry be described as incredible.

Ronan has been great in every HEC game for Munster, I wouldn't rush to call him incredible either. POM got MOTM in his first every HEC game, that's impressive but not incredible.

Leamy on the other hand has been very good as an impact player for both Ireland and Munster this season. Do you really think Henry can and will match that in the 6 nations?

Benny Cake · 08-01-2012 02:20PM

Hard to believe Henry only has 1 cap to his name... Now THAT'S incredible...

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:23PM

danthefan wrote: »

Really pathetic. You claimed Leamy had a "great"world cup, he didn't even get of the bench against Australia.

I think whenever Leamy has come on for Ireland or Munster he's made a big impact. Often he's only needed to come on for a few minutes, particularly for Ireland, but he's made an impact. The reality is barring injury there's no reason to change our starting backrow after 60 mins, I don't think that's in dispute, so it's a relative term.

Do you think Henry should be the bench option?

08-01-2012 02:24PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I did address the point, in no way should Henry be described as incredible.

Ronan has been great in every HEC game for Munster, I wouldn't rush to call him incredible either. POM got MOTM in his first every HEC game, that's impressive but not incredible.

Leamy on the other hand has been very good as an impact player for both Ireland and Munster this season. Do you really think Henry can and will match that in the 6 nations?

The point was that you said that the difference between Leamy to Henry was massive. (verbatim)

I countered that Henry has been playing far better than him this season (paraphrase).

You then tangentially focussed on my use of the language to describe the difference in their season as opposed to the meaning behind it.

I don't know why I bother.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 02:27PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

Really pathetic. You claimed Leamy had a "great"world cup, he didn't even get of the bench against Australia.

I think whenever Leamy has come on for Ireland or Munster he's made a big impact. Often he's only needed to come on for a few minutes, particularly for Ireland, but he's made an impact. The reality is barring injury there's no reason to change our starting backrow after 60 mins, I don't think that's in dispute, so it's a relative term.

Do you think Henry should be the bench option?

Big impact against Russia, USA and Italy so. Teams we can beat with our eyes closed. Surplus to requirements in the toughest game and did nothing against Wales. This equals a great world cup apparently. Further to this he's lost his place in the Munster team.

I never said I would have Henry on the bench for Ireland but he has been very good for Ulster this season, easily having a better season than Leamy, easily.

Benny Cake · 08-01-2012 02:27PM

I'm a huge fan of Leamys & have been for years but I think at this stage he's run his course... Never really regained form after his injury in 2008 but could always be depended upon to be solid when called upon. Considering the backrow options currently available I reckon he would have been lucky to hold onto his Irish spot even had he not been injured. Its time to bring in younger guys like POM, Ruddock, Ryan or go for our best available traditional 7 (Ronan/Jennings take your pick) to give us a different impact from the bench.

Fireball07 · 08-01-2012 02:28PM

I think it's a big blow for Munster...and while not a massive blow for Ireland, Leamy could still do a job.

He has been an excellent impact player this year for Munster, he has really made his presence felt in pretty much every game and has looked as good as he has in years. He always did a job for Ireland too. But I'd have had POM ahead of him anyway for Ireland, he was Munster's best player in the first 3 HC games. Muldoon and Henry are good players but they're significantly older than POM and Ruddock (although they are getting regular gametime.

GerM · 08-01-2012 02:30PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I did address the point, in no way should Henry be described as incredible.

Ronan has been great in every HEC game for Munster, I wouldn't rush to call him incredible either. POM got MOTM in his first every HEC game, that's impressive but not incredible.

Leamy on the other hand has been very good as an impact player for both Ireland and Munster this season. Do you really think Henry can and will match that in the 6 nations?

Leamy has made a great impact in a couple of HEC games. The sides he made that impact against aren't known for their back rows. I don't know where the perception that he was great off the bench for Ireland comes from. He got a courtesy run out against Wales and Italy. He got a bit of time against Russia. Carried strongly but made some mistakes that were highlighted. Got a bit of time against the USA and made little enough impact.

Henry, a number 8 by trade, has played very well against high quality, international back rowers in the HEC all the while playing out of position. His season has been of a very high and consistent standard.

I would say Henry can well match what Leamy offers these days and more.

Hagz · 08-01-2012 02:31PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think whenever Leamy has come on for Ireland or Munster he's made a big impact. Often he's only needed to come on for a few minutes, particularly for Ireland, but he's made an impact. The reality is barring injury there's no reason to change our starting backrow after 60 mins, I don't think that's in dispute, so it's a relative term.

Do you think Henry should be the bench option?

Personally I don't think Leamy made that great an impact, he certainly didn't have a bad one, but I never was impressed with him coming off the bench for Ireland. I would agree with you in that I doubt Henry could do much better. Truthfully, our back-row is such an explosive combination that it would be difficult for any player to come off the bench and make a noticeable impact.

If Leamy was fit I'd say Kidney would have selected him for the 19 shirt, something I would not have liked to see. Now that he's injured, unfortunately so, I think the 3 front runners are O'Mahony, McLaughlin and Ruddock. I would love Jennings to be one of those name but realistically he's not in favor. Out of those three names I'd be happy with any of them. McLaughlin is vastly under-rated because there's nothing flash to his game. But he's a strong ball carriers, great in the line-out and experienced with 2 HC medals. O'Mahony has been very impressive this season and I've no doubt he'd take such an opportunity and run with it. And as for Ruddock, well, I'm of the opinion that Ruddock is an outstanding player who (justifiably) isn't getting displayed enough.

astonaidan · 08-01-2012 02:35PM

I never understand the hatred of Leamy, If it wasnt for his injuries hed possibly still be starting for ireland

Benny Cake · 08-01-2012 02:36PM

astonaidan wrote: »

I never understand the hatred of Leamy, If it wasnt for his injuries hed possibly still be starting for ireland

No, he really wouldn't. He is not in the same league as O'Brien, Heaslip or Ferris.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 02:38PM

He got 8 mins against Italy. So in our two biggest pool games he got 8 mins in a game that was already won. Great world cup, really great.

GerM · 08-01-2012 02:40PM

astonaidan wrote: »

I never understand the hatred of Leamy, If it wasnt for his injuries hed possibly still be starting for ireland

He was a great player. He's no longer a great player. Unfortunately, the misguided loyalty shown to him by coaches made him a focal point of supporter's frustrations. Here we have a player who clearly isn't the best available being selected ahead of others who are far better equipped. It's maddening.

As for the hatred, I don't think anyone hates him but he's certainly not a massively popular bloke outside of his home province. He cultivated an image of a bit of a hard man in his early career with some nasty challenges and someone that was guilty of conceding silly penalties. The concession of the 10m last season when speaking with the referee summed up a lot of people's feelings towards his behaviour at times.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The point was that you said that the difference between Leamy to Henry was massive. (verbatim)

I countered that Henry has been playing far better than him this season (paraphrase).

You then tangentially focussed on my use of the language to describe the difference in their season as opposed to the meaning behind it.

I don't know why I bother.

Well, I focused on what you said because I don't think he has been incredible and then gave some examples of players who I do think are incredible.

But hey, you think Henry is an incredible player, fair enough. I wouldn't have him in the Irish squad.

08-01-2012 02:46PM

words cannot describe how pointless it is trying to be objective and rational with some people

astonaidan · 08-01-2012 02:47PM

GerM wrote: »

He was a great player. He's no longer a great player. Unfortunately, the misguided loyalty shown to him by coaches made him a focal point of supporter's frustrations. Here we have a player who clearly isn't the best available being selected ahead of others who are far better equipped. It's maddening.

As for the hatred, I don't think anyone hates him but he's certainly not a massively popular bloke outside of his home province. He cultivated an image of a bit of a hard man in his early career with some nasty challenges and someone that was guilty of conceding silly penalties. The concession of the 10m last season when speaking with the referee summed up a lot of people's feelings towards his behaviour at times.

Hmm I think hes still a great player when fit, Granted he always seems to get injured when he looks like getting it together so probably a void point

Nothing wrong with being a hardman, Not the penalties like, But sure their was hardly another reason we all loved Neil Best for a while was their

Im from out side of his province and I would take him in a heart beat to Connaught

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:48PM

danthefan wrote: »

Big impact against Russia, USA and Italy so. Teams we can beat with our eyes closed. Surplus to requirements in the toughest game and did nothing against Wales. This equals a great world cup apparently. Further to this he's lost his place in the Munster team.

I never said I would have Henry on the bench for Ireland but he has been very good for Ulster this season, easily having a better season than Leamy, easily.

Apart from the Clermont game, what top class opposition has Henry really, really impressed you against this season? I don't see every Ulster game so maybe I am being harsh on the guy.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 02:50PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

Big impact against Russia, USA and Italy so. Teams we can beat with our eyes closed. Surplus to requirements in the toughest game and did nothing against Wales. This equals a great world cup apparently. Further to this he's lost his place in the Munster team.

I never said I would have Henry on the bench for Ireland but he has been very good for Ulster this season, easily having a better season than Leamy, easily.

Apart from the Clermont game, what top class opposition has Henry really, really impressed you against this season? I don't see every Ulster game so maybe I am being harsh on the guy.

8 meaningless minutes counts as "great" to you, Henry has done plenty more than that.

RuggieBear · 08-01-2012 02:52PM

gentlemen, can we tone it down please.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

words cannot describe how pointless it is trying to be objective and rational with some people

You said he's been incredible all season, I disagree and gave reasons for why I disagreed. Sorry that isn't objective enough for you.

Amazotheamazing · 08-01-2012 02:54PM

danthefan wrote: »

8 meaningless minutes counts as "great" to you, Henry has done plenty more than that.

I was looking at the entire RWC. I could write off SOB based on his performance against Wales if you want to break it down minute by minute.

Anyhow, moving on, what other times has Henry really, really impressed you this season?

Hagz · 08-01-2012 02:58PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You said he's been incredible all season, I disagree and gave reasons for why I disagreed. Sorry that isn't objective enough for you.

It does seem rather pointless that you would drift the topic of debate towards a descriptive word he used. The debate was about Denis Leamy, and I'm pretty sure Emmet used Henry as an example of someone playing better. The posts that followed from you have all been about Henry, when Henry isn't the topic of debate. Granted, I'm sure Emmet regrets using the word incredible, but maybe, perhaps, possibly, he assumed his over-riding point would be concentrated on rather than one word.

GerM · 08-01-2012 02:59PM

astonaidan wrote: »

Hmm I think hes still a great player when fit, Granted he always seems to get injured when he looks like getting it together so probably a void point

Nothing wrong with being a hardman, Not the penalties like, But sure their was hardly another reason we all loved Neil Best for a while was their

Im from out side of his province and I would take him in a heart beat to Connaught

Ah yes, but you support Munster.

When I say hard man, I mean that he had a mean streak in him. He copped a couple of suspensions when younger including a nasty incident in the AIL that saw him banned for a stretch. By his own admission he was over the top in his youth and it was only after a couple of years in the Munster set up that it calmed down which coincided with him playing his best rugby around 2006. He often seemed to get involved in off the ball stuff. Sure even Buckley, the most relaxed man to ever take the field, knocked him out cold in training!

donfers · 08-01-2012 03:00PM

Leamy, when fit, is a top top player. The Munster fans who watch the team week in and week out know that, even if others try to write him off as a one dimensional player. He's far from that, an incredibly strong and dynamic player - as I said when fit, there are few better, he has been really unlucky with injuries in recent years and is a big loss to Munster's ever growing injury list

08-01-2012 03:00PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You said he's been incredible all season, I disagree and gave reasons for why I disagreed. Sorry that isn't objective enough for you.

this is a prime example of point scoring as opposed to discussing what we were actually talking about.

I'll remind you of the thread of thought that we were talking about.

You said that there's a massive drop off in talent from Leamy to the remainder of the Irish back rows available.

I gave you 6 players that would be very upset to hear this, as they'd all believe that they're better either now, or will be than Leamy.

You claimed that the 3 elder statesmen of the group are decent committed players but incomparable to a fully fit Leamy.

I said that we haven't seen that in 4 years, and that if we were talking about the present that Henry in particular has been far better than Leamy in recent months.

You decided to derail this train of thought because you took exception to my use of the word incredible.

I've been getting fed up of some of the inane bull**** that some people on here have decided that the forum needs to engage in. This used to be a place where knowledgeable posters were able to talk about potential Irish superstars without turning it into a pissing contest about which province's head coach bloods more players. It used to be a place where people would objectively and constructively discuss players on their merits, and not their jersey colour.

Seems like an awfully long time since we've done the above without descending into tripe.

bleg · 08-01-2012 03:03PM

Last stand out performance for Leamy for me was vs Perpignan away a couple of years ago. He was absolutely incredible that day, I'd say he won every ruck he went into. He got injured at the end of the match though and, for me, hasn't been the same since.

danthefan · 08-01-2012 03:06PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

8 meaningless minutes counts as "great" to you, Henry has done plenty more than that.

I was looking at the entire RWC. I could write off SOB based on his performance against Wales if you want to break it down minute by minute.

Anyhow, moving on, what other times has Henry really, really impressed you this season?

First point is just beyond daft, not even going to bother.

Second, Henry had performed in every game I've seen him in this season. His workrate has been outstanding. Even so he would hardly need to be really really impressive to be better than a guy who spends most of his time on the bench.

Hagz · 08-01-2012 03:07PM

Paul O'Connell was taken off with cramp as a precautionary just in case anyone was worried.

GerM · 08-01-2012 03:07PM

donfers wrote: »

Leamy, when fit, is a top top player. The Munster fans who watch the team week in and week out know that, even if others try to write him off as a one dimensional player. He's far from that, an incredibly strong and dynamic player - as I said when fit, there are few better, he has been really unlucky with injuries in recent years and is a big loss to Munster's ever growing injury list

I don't think many people debate that he was a fantastic player. But the issue is that he's never going to be the player he was. When fit now, his best is nowhere near what it once was and I'd disagree that he still performs as a top player does. Injuries have robbed him of his top level form and there's very little in the last 2-3 years that has come close to the level he showed in the season Munster first won the HEC when he was one of the best back row players in Europe undoubtedly. His role in Irish rugby now reflects where he is in terms of the performances he is capable of. He's an impact sub. With all fit, he's probably third choice blindside for Munster. He was the only man not to get a start in the WC and really only travelled out of DK's approach of familiarity and loyalty.

ed7890 · 08-01-2012 03:08PM

I think Leamy was in really good form in the middle/earlypart of last season. Loads of games I was at, his white scrum cap was all over the places, one of our best carriers. He got another injury during the six nations if my memory is correct, and never regained his first team spot since then, and didn't have the same form.

I didn't really have a problem with him being in the squad for the world cup. Not sure if other people were calling for somebody else to replace him.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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