rugby hangover

wixfjord · 15-12-2011 11:22AM

BBDBB wrote: »

I used to think like that JD, but the HEC standard now is so high that I believe it is very close to International level for intensity and skill.

I enjoy both, and wouldnt want to choose one over the other.

Rabo/Magners I enjoy but there are some dire games

Uh oh, Justin won't like that!

danthefan · 15-12-2011 11:24AM

The performance we put in against Wales was the one I was expecting against Aus. Under the current management (actually, just Kidney, let's not mince words) there is very little exciting about the national team imo. Obviously I always want Ireland to win but before the RWC I couldn't see us getting past a QF and so it transpired, so I wasn't that down about it.

I love watching Leinster and the HEC is the best tournament in the world imo.

onlyrocknroll · 15-12-2011 11:33AM

I typically feel more emotionally connected to Munster than I do to Ireland, but I think that that's only because Munster play for a greater portion of the year than Ireland do. The pattern of following a team almost weekly through two competitions makes me quite passionate about them, in a way that I wouldn't always feel about the national side.

Midway through an international tournament my enthusiasm for the Irish side would be rekindled though.

If I had to choose between Ireland for a Grand Slam, or Munster for a HC, I... I..., can't decide.

totallegend · 15-12-2011 11:46AM

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

If I had to choose between Ireland for a Grand Slam, or Munster for a HC, I... I..., can't decide.

Swap "Leinster" for "Munster" there and I'd have no problems deciding, I'd take another HC over a grand slam any day of the week. Greedy perhaps, but to be honest, I don't see a GS as that big an achievement.

The last two Six Nations have been poor from an Irish point of view and the World Cup was not a success either so I think some sort of disillusion among fans is to be expected.

Any rugby hangover I had after the World Cup has been well and truly banished by the opening rounds of the HC, white-knuckle excitement all the way. There isn't a tournament that can touch it, IMO.

nomunnnofun · 15-12-2011 11:57AM

I know provincial rugby in Ireland is at a very good standard and it is great to see the Irish teams in the running each year but the HEC standard does not compare to the competition at International level. If you ask every schoolboy playing rugby what their ultimate ambition is, I have no doubt it would be to play for Ireland. I am a Leinster supporter and go to games quite regularly but I will never see the day when I am hoping players do not get injured playing for Ireland just to keep Leinster in the run for HEC or Magners League.

Everyone loves the bit of banter between Munster/Leinster supporters but Ireland should always come first in a true rugby supporters thoughts.

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 11:59AM

wixfjord wrote: »

Uh oh, Justin won't like that!

I can guarantee you that international-level players would disagree too.

wixfjord · 15-12-2011 12:01PM

nomunnnofun wrote: »

I know provincial rugby in Ireland is at a very good standard and it is great to see the Irish teams in the running each year but the HEC standard does not compare to the competition at International level. If you ask every schoolboy playing rugby what their ultimate ambition is, I have no doubt it would be to play for Ireland. I am a Leinster supporter and go to games quite regularly but I will never see the day when I am hoping players do not get injured playing for Ireland just to keep Leinster in the run for HEC or Magners League.

Everyone loves the bit of banter between Munster/Leinster supporters but Ireland should always come first in a true rugby supporters thoughts.

Why?
I could just as easily say that the local club should come first in any true rugby supporters thoughts, and in fact that point has much more merit.
By the way, the point about the HEC not comparing to international level is far too broad to sum it up like that. Far too broad.

wixfjord · 15-12-2011 12:02PM

JustinDee wrote: »

I can guarantee you that international-level players would disagree too.

Well you're the one whose mates with all of em, so do tell?!
Again, it's a very multi faceted argument, not as black and white as "international rugby is higher intensity and better than HEC because I say so".

BBDBB · 15-12-2011 12:05PM

JustinDee wrote: »

I can guarantee you that international-level players would disagree too.

I have never played international or HEC rugby, so I am only speaking from having watched the game at that level for several decades from the touchline and the TV. I dont think there is much to choose between them at the moment.

danthefan · 15-12-2011 12:13PM

Cedric Heymans, after the Leinster/Toulouse HEC semi last season, compared it to international rugby and said you had to go to RWC knockouts to get much more intense than that. I've never played either though so wouldn't know personally.

Digifriendly · 15-12-2011 12:13PM

JustinDee wrote: »

If I had to choose it would be International for me. Always has been. Always will be.
Provincial branch teams are the feeder to the national side above all. Nothing beats the level of intensity of a crunch international. Nothing. It is true representitive rugby.

Intensity yes but in many other ways no. e.g value for money. Paying a lot more to watch Ireland in AIs/6nations compared to your province in HEC is IMHO not worth it except on the odd occasion. Also for those like myself who have to fork out extra to travel to Dublin and back I prefer to spend less and watch my provincial side.

durkadurka · 15-12-2011 12:34PM

HEC is so much more enjoyable to watch - its intense but still not as conservative as the international game.

International games are derbies, the teams have studied each other to death and cancel each other out to an extent.

HEC is a bit looser and the BP system means there's always something to play for in the game. You can be 17 points behind with 10 mins to go and still have a chance of a BP - in theory anyway.

The RWC had a good few high intensity games but frankly it wasnt a spectators dream.

profitius · 15-12-2011 12:44PM

buck65 wrote: »

The Irish team comes second to me and to alot of Munster fans I know. I spend most of the 6 nations hoping Munster players avoid injury.
Also we have hyped up our national team to such an extent we were surprised to lose against a superior Welsh team. Far too predictable.

The Welsh team was no way superior to the Ireland team. It was just one of those days for both teams, great for Wales while nothing went right for Ireland due to many factors.

thebaz · 15-12-2011 12:55PM

profitius wrote: »

The Welsh team was no way superior to the Ireland team. It was just one of those days for both teams, great for Wales while nothing went right for Ireland due to many factors.

I'd love to agree with you, but sadly the Welsh team were far superior to the Irish - the WC came at least a season to late for BOD, D'Arcy - so we lacked a serious midfield threat - and dont get me started on Kidneys one dimensional tactics

justsomebloke · 15-12-2011 01:12PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Why?

probably due to the money it brings into the game.

Truthfully being from a non traditional rugby area of the northside I would have to say that the IRFU have done nothing to try and make an attachment between me and the international game where as Leinster Rugby and the OLSC have at least tried in my area (yes it was years after I started going to Leinster games but at least they have tried). So for me HEC rugby is the pinnacle of the rugby calendar and this years so far has been fantastic

wixfjord · 15-12-2011 01:40PM

justsomebloke wrote: »

probably due to the money it brings into the game.

Truthfully being from a non traditional rugby area of the northside I would have to say that the IRFU have done nothing to try and make an attachment between me and the international game where as Leinster Rugby and the OLSC have at least tried in my area (yes it was years after I started going to Leinster games but at least they have tried). So for me HEC rugby is the pinnacle of the rugby calendar and this years so far has been fantastic

But if there was nobody running local clubs then there'd be no need for international. A sweeping statement like "any true rugby fan should put international first" is disingenuous to me tbh.

BBDBB · 15-12-2011 01:46PM

wixfjord wrote: »

But if there was nobody running local clubs then there'd be no need for international. A sweeping statement like "any true rugby fan should put international first" is disingenuous to me tbh.

I think any "true rugby fan" loves the game in all its forms and levels and welcomes the intense competition and rivalry on the field and the good natured banter and welcome you get off the pitch (usually in a bar, and sometimes on an internet site

)

bamboozle · 15-12-2011 02:11PM

justsomebloke wrote: »

probably due to the money it brings into the game.

Truthfully being from a non traditional rugby area of the northside I would have to say that the IRFU have done nothing to try and make an attachment between me and the international game where as Leinster Rugby and the OLSC have at least tried in my area (yes it was years after I started going to Leinster games but at least they have tried). So for me HEC rugby is the pinnacle of the rugby calendar and this years so far has been fantastic

you should head to watch Clontarf, Suttonians or Skerries play, great set ups all 3 quite unique for dublin clubs in that they're very community based.

Club rugby first and foremost for me, its happened a few times over the last few years where 6 nations games have clashed with AIL games, the int. match gets sky plussed.

profitius · 15-12-2011 02:12PM

thebaz wrote: »

I'd love to agree with you, but sadly the Welsh team were far superior to the Irish - the WC came at least a season to late for BOD, D'Arcy - so we lacked a serious midfield threat - and dont get me started on Kidneys one dimensional tactics

How were they? Who did they beat besides Ireland?

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 02:14PM

justsomebloke wrote: »

probably due to the money it brings into the game.

Truthfully being from a non traditional rugby area of the northside I would have to say that the IRFU have done nothing to try and make an attachment between me and the international game where as Leinster Rugby and the OLSC have at least tried in my area (yes it was years after I started going to Leinster games but at least they have tried). So for me HEC rugby is the pinnacle of the rugby calendar and this years so far has been fantastic

What do you think the IRFU itself should do with the Northside to attract you to the international game or team? Genuine question.

The team have trained in Castleknock, Malahide, Portmarnock before with open sessions for example. Player appearances at stores/public centres take place around each international tournament/series. The Six Nations trophies (not replicas unlike other trophies) were toured around the clubs, as they were with clubs all over Ireland. When Wales won them in 2008, the trophies remained in the trophy cabinet at WRU HQ. I myself took them on many a jaunt in 2009/2010 all over the place. Development projects funded by IRFU are still in full swing. The Play Rugby programme still continues.

Don't forget that the Leinster branch is a part of the union. It is not a seperate entity, is funded by the IRFU, sharing the same purpose but in a regional capacity.

danthefan · 15-12-2011 02:30PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Don't forget that the Leinster branch is a part of the union. It is not a seperate entity, is funded by the IRFU, sharing the same purpose but in a regional capacity.

I've asked you this before, you didn't answer then and I doubt you'll answer now, but to what extent? Do Leinster make enough money to fund themselves? Do the IRFU take all the gate receipts and the likes and then give money back to the provinces?

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 02:45PM

danthefan wrote: »

I've asked you this before, you didn't answer then and I doubt you'll answer now

???
Its not a tricky question. Why would I avoid it? Strange . . .

danthefan wrote: »

but to what extent? Do Leinster make enough money to fund themselves? Do the IRFU take all the gate receipts and the likes and then give money back to the provinces?

The union is funding development programmes, promotional programmes, staffing, training and facility funding. It also underwrites centrally contracted player/a number of coaching contracts which add up the most sizeable cost. All of this is mainly funded by the national team's revenue stream which outsizes that of the provinces considerably.

justsomebloke · 15-12-2011 02:53PM

JustinDee wrote: »

What do you think the IRFU itself should do with the Northside to attract you to the international game or team? Genuine question.

The team have trained in Castleknock, Malahide, Portmarnock before with open sessions for example. Player appearances at stores/public centres take place around each international tournament/series. The Six Nations trophies (not replicas unlike other trophies) were toured around the clubs, as they were with clubs all over Ireland. When Wales won them in 2008, the trophies remained in the trophy cabinet at WRU HQ. I myself took them on many a jaunt in 2009/2010 all over the place. Development projects funded by IRFU are still in full swing. The Play Rugby programme still continues.

Don't forget that the Leinster branch is a part of the union. It is not a seperate entity, is funded by the IRFU, sharing the same purpose but in a regional capacity.

I specifically said I was from a non traditional rugby part of Dublin yet the examples you give are of the IRFU doing the rounds of traditional rugby club areas. The IRFU should be thinking outside the box and if it means having to take the cup to pubs in non traditional areas cause the clubs aren't big enough then so be it if it will help bring more people into the game.

Ok I haven't seen Leinster do this either but saying that on some of the big HC days last year they had Leinster flags from one end of swords village to the other, or the OLSC giving a list of bars and clubs showing away games so people can congregate (this has the added advantage of letting people know where the local club is and trying to get them to go along when other wise they may never go).

However this probably all just stems from difference in attendance at games. Leinster have over 43,000 tickets sold for a game against Bath in what is just a group game of the HEC. To sell that many tickets you HAVE to be hitting demographics that usually don't go to matches, couple with ticket discounts and family themed days you get a good feel from the club. On the other hand the IRFU don't have to really advertise their games (once the tickets are reasonably priced) so they don't target anyone bar their usual audience.

So on a local level people will see that Leinster seem to have an interest in their are where as the IRFU don't and this is why you will get a lot of people with more of an attachment to their province then the international set up

danthefan · 15-12-2011 02:58PM

JustinDee wrote: »

???
Its not a tricky question. Why would I avoid it? Strange . . .

The union is funding development programmes, promotional programmes, staffing, training and facility funding. It also underwrites centrally contracted player/a number of coaching contracts which add up the most sizeable cost. All of this is mainly funded by the national team's revenue stream which outsizes that of the provinces considerably.

I have no idea to the first part.

So could the provinces (Leinster and Munster I suppose) or could they not fund themselves?

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 03:29PM

justsomebloke wrote: »

I specifically said I was from a non traditional rugby part of Dublin yet the examples you give are of the IRFU doing the rounds of traditional rugby club areas. The IRFU should be thinking outside the box and if it means having to take the cup to pubs in non traditional areas cause the clubs aren't big enough then so be it if it will help bring more people into the game

Which area is that? I know the trophies did plenty of shopping/civic centre appearances, for example.
Again, genuine questions here. I'm not arguing or debating a point.

buck65 · 15-12-2011 03:33PM

I'm sure if you took the centrally contracted players off their books they could easily afford to run themselves. Maybe not Connacht though?
Would love to see the figures and gate receipts from Munster and Leinster.

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 03:34PM

buck65 wrote: »

I'm sure if you took the centrally contracted players off their books they could easily afford to run themselves. Maybe not Connacht though?

No, they couldn't without damaging all their own programmes.
Thats why its as it is now.

Anyway, off topic now.
My best advice is to get down to your local club and check out any of their teams, seniors, Js, Women, youths or minis.
There's a whole heap of rugby out there. None to a dearth. Not just International and Provincial.

buck65 · 15-12-2011 03:38PM

Do you mean academy etc.? How do English and French clubs do it?
Munster and Leinster would easily sit up there at the top for attendances and merchandising sales surely. I'm not convinced. Would love to see figures but I reckon I could make a stab at it.
What is the average provincial wage? Munster and Leinster's gate receipts must top 7 million on a regular season and more with home quarter final etc.
Merchandising must be 1 million plus, sponsorships another million per annum?
I know it's all hypothetical but interesting nonetheless.

JustinDee · 15-12-2011 03:42PM

buck65 wrote: »

Do you mean academy etc.? How do English and French clubs do it?
Munster and Leinster would easily sit up there at the top for attendances and merchandising sales surely. I'm not convinced. Would love to see figures but I reckon I could make a stab at it.

Many of the English and most of the French clubs are privately owned and therefore have additional funding via owners.
Irish provinces are part of the IRFU (which is in fact technically comprised of nomindated committees from the clubs of Ireland).

And to answer your question, the Academies are run under the IRFU Elite Player Programme.

Cookiemunster · 15-12-2011 03:54PM

buck65 wrote: »

Do you mean academy etc.? How do English and French clubs do it?
Munster and Leinster would easily sit up there at the top for attendances and merchandising sales surely. I'm not convinced. Would love to see figures but I reckon I could make a stab at it.
What is the average provincial wage? Munster and Leinster's gate receipts must top 7 million on a regular season and more with home quarter final etc.
Merchandising must be 1 million plus, sponsorships another million per annum?
I know it's all hypothetical but interesting nonetheless.

My rough figures for Munster from last years attendances.
Average magners gate was 15,430 x 11 x average ticket price of €30 = €5,091,750
Average hec gate was 26,000 x 3 x average ticket price of €40 = €3,120,000
MRSC full member subs 3000 x €80 = €240,000
MRSC associate member subs 7000 x €30 = €210,000
Toyota Sponsorship €5,750,000/3 = €1,920,000
Grand total €10,581,750

As you said there is also the merchandising and other sponsorships.
Thats a larger budget that most sides outside of France, before a penny comes from the IRFU.
Also I'm sure Dawson claimed last year that Leinster would be able to go it alone without any IRFU support.
As you said hypothetical but interesting nonetheless.

rugby hangover

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