Denver Broncos Thread

vetinari · 29-11-2011 05:13PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Throwing Ints these days dont make or break QBs. Tom Brady threw 7 Ints in 4 games this season. Does that mae Tebow better than him? No. But you look at the amount of passing attempts all the QB on the top of the passing list have compared to Tebow over 7 games. Of course they are going to have more Ints. I dont buy the lack of Ints as an argument especially when they are making him run more.

Ah now, I respect your opinion on american football tallaghtoutlaws, you obviously know your stuff. This however is a crazy statement. Turnover differential is arguably the one stat that most closely correlates to winning and losing. If Brady kept throwing interceptions at the rate of 7 in 4 games, then he would be a worse QB than Tebow. Tebow's protection of the football is the single best thing he has done as a starter.

tallaghtoutlaws · 29-11-2011 05:31PM

vetinari wrote: »

Ah now, I respect your opinion on american football tallaghtoutlaws, you obviously know your stuff. This however is a crazy statement. Turnover differential is arguably the one stat that most closely correlates to winning and losing. If Brady kept throwing interceptions at the rate of 7 in 4 games, then he would be a worse QB than Tebow. Tebow's protection of the football is the single best thing he has done as a starter.

But my point is its hard to compare Tebow to other QBs this season as he is throwing over 60% less passes than them and Denver are running the ball all of the time. As you can read from the rest of my post Denver are smart with their play calling only throwing the ball when its clear the Defense have fully committed to the run giving Tebow time and space to throw the football. And when he has time he can fire the ball where ever he wants. With teams who pass so much the defense are already set up for the most part to defend the pass. Add that to the fact that when no one is open Tebow doesn't fire the ball downfield like other QBs he tucks it and goes.

Tebow's protection of the football is the single best thing he has done as a starter.

I didn't say it wasn't and in fact I commend him for it but it does have a lot to do with smart playcalling and his feet.

spiralism · 30-11-2011 11:47AM

Good read, Elway might be getting on board?

bruschi · 30-11-2011 11:54AM

spiralism wrote: »

Good read, Elway might be getting on board?

a bit sensationalised for my liking, which is one of the reasons I hope Tebow doesnt fall from grace too rapidly. but the one thing I have been saying is pretty much summed up by :

Lost in the whirl of Tebowmania is a Denver defense that is performing exceptionally well. The Broncos keep winning nail-biters because their front seven shuts down the run, Elvis Dumervil and the rookie Von Miller continue to brutalize opposing QBs and fleet linebacker D.J. Williams is playing out of his mind.
It’s because of them that Tebow doesn’t have to fret about slinging 30 passes from the shotgun. He can be—dare we go there without being called a hater?—mediocre, put the Broncos in decent field position with an offense tailored to his weaknesses and then take a knee as they win with very unsexy field goals.

Peyton Manning · 30-11-2011 11:59AM

I'm getting just about sick of this "what isn't being recognised is the Denver defence effort" stuff coming up here the whole time. Of course it's being recognised, it's not as if it's some obscure indie viewpoint that the Denver D is performing well - it's common knowledge and obvious to anyone who's been watching them. Tebow is getting more attention because a) he appeals to the common fan, b) his general celebrity and c) his playing is the result of a big QB controversy which always gets attention. But to say the defences performance have been "lost in the whirlwind" is rubbish, everyone knows they've been brilliant.

spiralism · 30-11-2011 12:02PM

bruschi wrote: »

a bit sensationalised for my liking, which is one of the reasons I hope Tebow doesnt fall from grace too rapidly. but the one thing I have been saying is pretty much summed up by :

Without a doubt, not lost on me though, hence the Miller sig. Miller is playing so well right now he has to be DROY, there's even a considerable case he has for DPOY. Him and Dumervil are rapidly catching Freeney/Mathis as the best rush combo in the league in only their first season together. It's why i loved the Fox hire, smash mouth football was what suited this team. Tebow wouldn't have won anywhere near as many games as he's doing in the Mcdaniels spread offence at this stage in his development.

If it ain't broke though, don't fix it, Fox did manage to get a team Quarterbacked by Jake Delhomme to a narrow SB defeat to the pats after all!

EDIT: Also, Cam is right, this has to be about the seventh or eighth time i've read about the unsung and unrecognised broncos defence this week alone, it is catching a lot of attention by now! Given that it's likely sending at least 3 players to the pro bowl and possibly more, it is starting to get its dues.

D3PO · 30-11-2011 12:10PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

I'm getting just about sick of this "what isn't being recognised is the Denver defence effort" stuff coming up here the whole time. Of course it's being recognised, .

No its not being recognised by many . Anybody that posts saying that Tebow is winning Denver games is not recognising it thats the fact. They can say they are but they are not.

Tebow is not winning Denver games right now what he is doing is not losing them games. There is a subtle difference but an important one.

bruschi · 30-11-2011 12:17PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

I'm getting just about sick of this "what isn't being recognised is the Denver defence effort" stuff coming up here the whole time. Of course it's being recognised, it's not as if it's some obscure indie viewpoint that the Denver D is performing well - it's common knowledge and obvious to anyone who's been watching them. Tebow is getting more attention because a) he appeals to the common fan, b) his general celebrity and c) his playing is the result of a big QB controversy which always gets attention. But to say the defences performance have been "lost in the whirlwind" is rubbish, everyone knows they've been brilliant.

thats true to an extent. but you even have people on this thread who say 'Tebow is the sole reason they are winning'. most knowledgable fans will recognise the defence, but the whole hype is still about Tebow.

even that article above says that to call him medicore is bordering on being called a hater. there is a huge media circus over Tebow, and personally, I dont think its good in the long run for him. its not his doing, its just a simple fact of the attention he draws.

all the media reporting for the last week has been about tebow leading the Broncos to victory, but IMO, I would imagine Tebow would prefer if the defence was highlighted more than him, as it would take some of the huge spotlight off him and let him develop further.

spiralism · 30-11-2011 12:23PM

"No, you can continue to talk about the offense; continue to talk about those guys," Dawkins said in NFL reports. "To be honest with you, we don't care. We're going to do our part, and as long as they continue to pull out victories and lead game-winning drives, I don't really care who gets the credit."

Brian Dawkins doesn't seem to mind too much..

"What he said really stuck with me," Miller said, according to NFL reports. "Just having that guy around, it makes us better men. I think he plays for us, and he makes us want to play for him."

“I told everyone I was going to [do the Tebow] late in overtime, I knew Tebow was going to win for us,” Carter said. “I wanted to celebrate for our quarterback. We’re riding with him and he’s riding with us. We are winning with him.”

Some of the other guys on Defence are keen to give him credit too..

Peyton Manning · 30-11-2011 12:25PM

D3PO wrote: »

No its not being recognised by many . Anybody that posts saying that Tebow is winning Denver games is not recognising it thats the fact. They can say they are but they are not.

Tebow is not winning Denver games right now what he is doing is not losing them games. There is a subtle difference but an important one.

Yes, it is being recognised by everyone. Just because they're not posting about it doesn't mean it's not recognised. Tebow is being posted about more because a) this is a Tebow thread, and b) it's a debate, not everyone holds the same view as him hence the long winded back and forth going on in this thread, and that's fine. But everybody has recognised how impressive the Denver defence has been, but you're not going to notice it because it makes for a very shít debate, i.e. -

"Denver defence has been good."
"I agree."

That's about the jist of it. And as far as who's winning games, Tebow or the Defence, it's not as if they're in competition with each other - they're BOTH winning games and they're BOTH contributing. Yes the defence is contributing more because a) they're a unit and b) they have more playmakers and better skilled players, but Jesus this talk the Broncos are almost winning games in spite of Tebow is just as sensationalist as the talk of them winning games all because of Tebow.

FYI, when someone posts "Tebow gets another win" or anything like that, it's a VERY big assumption for you to make in thinking that they're attributing everything about the win down to Tebow.

Also, it worth pointing out that people were falling over themselves trying to make fun of eagle eye, spiralism, myself and others who think Tebow has that special something that makes his team mates want to give 100%. Well, Mike Mayock came out and said the exact same thing yesterday, and his opinion is always fawned over in here. But I guess he's just a fanboy too, right?

D3PO · 30-11-2011 12:35PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

Also, it worth pointing out that people were falling over themselves trying to make fun of eagle eye, spiralism, myself and others who think Tebow has that special something that makes his team mates want to give 100%. Well, Mike Mayock came out and said the exact same thing yesterday, and his opinion is always fawned over in here. But I guess he's just a fanboy too, right?

I have said on this thread I believe Tebow delivers something that is lifting the performance of his teammates, you cant argue that, I dont know anybody that disagrees with that.

I do think it should be mentioned that as much as Tebows intangibles are helping here it also has to be acknowledged the playcalling by default assists in making them look collectively better.

Having the read option game, nufflifies the pass rush to a certain extent and the O Line looks better than it did with Orton as a result.

They may or may not actually have raised their game but the results show they are doing better.

Running and punting also helps. No turnovers means your normally asking the opposition to go 70 plus yards for a TD. Even without the defense lifiting their game its likely to mean you concende less points as not turning the ball over means longer fields to defend.

Denver are winning games, they are a team so Tebow has to get his share of credit for that and he deserves based on that to get a real crack at improving next offseason withotu feeling like he might lose his job.

The argument remains that he is not a capable starting NFL QB right now however. Unfortunatly it is likely going to take Brady and the patriots jumping clear early forcing Tebow into a passing game to make that point stick with some people.

spiralism · 30-11-2011 12:37PM

On a Tebow article binge this morning, here's another

SAN DIEGO — Quarterback Tim Tebow no longer prints Bible verses on his eye black, but the Broncos believe what their quarterback is preaching. On the eve of Denver's 16-13 overtime victory against San Diego, Tebow's message to teammates was Proverbs 27:17.
"Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another," Tebow said Sunday as he walked the stadium catacombs after yet another victory you had to see to believe.
The Broncos, however, have 100 percent faith that Tebow can lead them to the playoffs after a dismal 1-4 start to this season. "I've never seen a human who can will himself to win like that," Denver linebacker Von Miller said.
If a quarterback who would rather run than throw can pull off an invitation to the Super Bowl tournament, then Tebow must not only be considered a legitimate Pro Bowl candidate, but also should be mentioned in the discussion for the NFL's most valuable player.
Mixing football with religion is what makes Tebow a lightning rod for controversy. But from praying for the Chargers to miss a potential game-winning field goal to preaching to teammates from the Bible, Tebow seems certain heaven is on his side.
Denver coach John Fox asked Tebow to address the team the night before this AFC West showdown. The quarterback fell back on what he knew best, and inspired the troops by quoting from the Old Testament.
"He said iron sharpens iron and men sharpen other men. And I think that's totally true," Miller said. "He gave us a great speech. We came out (for the game) fired up. And that was a wrap."
As Tebow picked a path from a tiny visiting locker room to the team bus, his crowded path caused him to dart and look for daylight as much as any of his 22 carries against San Diego did. Without breaking stride, Tebow autographed a football handed from a grown man and exchanged a fist bump with a smiling child wearing a Chargers replica jersey.
Tebow, however, was stopped dead in his tracks when told his speech on game's eve had touched the hearts of teammates. "It was a huge honor," Tebow said of being given the opportunity. "I just tried to share from the heart."
There are more talented squads in the NFL. But right here, right now, nobody in the league is playing with more heart than the Broncos.
Denver rallied from a 10-0 deficit in the opening half, tied the game on a field goal by Matt Prater during the final two minutes of the fourth quarter and had to survive a 53-yard kick by San Diego's Nick Novak that slipped wide right in overtime.
Injecting religion, Tebow praised the Lord for everything that happened, going so far as to admit he wasn't watching when Novak blew a chance to send the Chargers home winners. "I was kind of praying the whole time," Tebow said.
Was he praying for Novak to miss?
"I might've said that," Tebow replied with a chuckle. "Or maybe a block."
Employing an offense that would be considered conservative by peewee league standards shouldn't work in the NFL. Yet Tebow confounds those of us who shake a head in disbelief at how completing 50 percent of his 18 passes against San Diego qualified as high by his low standard of throwing accuracy.
But there's no denying what is at work here is powerful stuff. In recent days, I've heard a barber in Montana and a rental-car agent in California both testify they are not Broncos fans but have started cheering for Tebow because pro sports cry out for more inherent goodness.
Willis McGahee rushed for 117 yards, leaving bruises on Chargers every step of the way. With two sacks, Denver defensive end Elvis Dumervil lowered the doom so fiercely it made San Diego quarterback Philip Rivers antsy in the pocket. What Tebow brings might not be built to last in the NFL, but I gladly admit his winning spirit transcends statistical analysis.
"Tebow believes in what he believes in. It's amazing. He doesn't change for anybody. He's the same 2 4/7. I've witnessed it on tough days, cold days, he's the same every day," Miller said. "What (Tebow) has his mind-set on is going to work. And it does."
As a 37-yard field goal by Prater clinched the victory, one of the happiest Broncos spied standing near the team bench was team executive John Elway. "I understand better than most how every time you come to this town it's a dogfight," he explained.
With the toothy smile that made him almost as famous as his big right arm, Elway offered Tebow congratulations near midfield during the victory celebration.
Coming from the biggest legend in Broncos history, this qualified as more than a slap on the back for Tebow. It was a seal of approval.

As i've already said, there's just something different about this broncos team. I'm only following them and the nfl by extension since about the 07 season and it's the first time i actually see us doing something really well without a nagging suspicion that we'll **** it up, something i felt might happen in the 08 and 09 meltdowns. This broncos side is different, up to now we'd be winning by 4 points with a minute to go and id wonder how we'd **** it up and lose... now we'd be down a score with a minute to go and i'd have a good feeling that we'd win.

bruschi · 30-11-2011 12:39PM

spiralism wrote: »

Brian Dawkins doesn't seem to mind too much..

Some of the other guys on Defence are keen to give him credit too..

thats where I said above how his ability and worth are 2 different things. I'm not sure I buy into the whole defence playing better because of him, but if the denver players say its that way, then who am I to disagree. if they feel Tebow makes them play better, then that is where his worth to the side can not be argued.

as an aside, they would also look pretty foolish with how the media is going if they came out and said 'hey, give us some damn credit, we're the ones doing the business, not this Tebow joker' :pac:

D3PO · 30-11-2011 12:40PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

FYI, when someone posts "Tebow gets another win" or anything like that, it's a VERY big assumption for you to make in thinking that they're attributing everything about the win down to Tebow.

Is it really though ? Given the amount of hype people have and the polarising views on Tebow, the statement is taken literally i and I believe meant literally some of the time aswell.

I agree not everybody means that Tebow won it but certainly some are.

tallaghtoutlaws · 30-11-2011 12:42PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

Also, it worth pointing out that people were falling over themselves trying to make fun of eagle eye, spiralism, myself and others who think Tebow has that special something that makes his team mates want to give 100%. Well, Mike Mayock came out and said the exact same thing yesterday, and his opinion is always fawned over in here. But I guess he's just a fanboy too, right?

But even you fell off the wagon at some point after one of the weekends. As for people falling over themselves? Come on that's almost trying to make it out as personal rather than difference of opinion. When most people disagreed with he special kind of something it was to do with the fact that as a QB you need a hell of lot more than just that to win games. It might be giving the Broncos players a kick up the arse right now but what happens if this so called something extra fails to win games because his actual abilities are called on? Will you stand by it? That's the difference. You can have all this special something in the world but at some point you are going to have to prove your abilities. But there is no doubt its working for him and the Broncos right now.

What gets me about all of this even when one of us so called haters change our opinion on the chap we still get called haters or you lot still look for the negatives we write to fuel your argument. But hey if Maycock does it everyone forgets what he said before right? This can go back and forth for years to come with neither side seeing eye to eye just like those manning brady threads in the past you will always get two very difference of opinions with both sides being right to some extent and neither meeting on common ground in between. If life was cut so easy there wouldn't be forums like this and they would be boring as fook.

Blured · 30-11-2011 12:56PM

The problem with Tebow (and by extension threads like these) is that he is exactly what his fans think he is and exactly what people who arent fans think he is.

For Fans - Tebow is a born winner, a leader of men who gets the job done, raises the performance of people around him, etc

For non Fans - Tebow is not an NFL ready quarterback, his throwing action is slow, a lot of inaccurate throws, etc

People seem to be arguing from these points of view, when in my opinion they are both true to some extent.

Only time will tell if Tebow becomes a franchise QB and it depends on Denver sticking with him even if he loses and Tebow improving significantly on the fundamentals in the offseason.

Peyton Manning · 30-11-2011 01:16PM

Blured wrote: »

The problem with Tebow (and by extension threads like these) is that he is exactly what his fans think he is and exactly what people who arent fans think he is.

For Fans - Tebow is a born winner, a leader of men who gets the job done, raises the performance of people around him, etc

For non Fans - Tebow is not an NFL ready quarterback, his throwing action is slow, a lot of inaccurate throws, etc

That's very true, and a good way of putting it. My own take on all this is that I've probably been looking at this rigidly in terms of the thread title - Orton vs Tebow. I haven't really gotten involved with the whole "Is Tebow the future?" debate above saying that I think he will be (shot in the dark) as it can't be proved either way without hindsight.

But again, in terms of the Broncos and who gave them the best chance to win, it has been proven that they were better off going with the kid who's a below average pocket passer with great intangibles rather than the guy who's an above average pocket passer with little or no good intangibles. That's all I've been concerned with really.

Amirani · 30-11-2011 01:36PM

John Skelton has a 3-1 record with the Cards, should he continue to start because he's a "winner"? No, because Kolb is by far the better QB.

Obviously in Denver's case there's no better QBs available. The hype around Tebow at the moment is crazy, though predictable.

D3PO · 30-11-2011 01:37PM

Tim Tebow > Curtis Painter & Dan Orlovsky

There I said it. Now can't we all just get a long :cool:

Syferus · 30-11-2011 04:24PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

John Skelton has a 3-1 record with the Cards, should he continue to start because he's a "winner"? No, because Kolb is by far the better QB.

Obviously in Denver's case there's no better QBs available. The hype around Tebow at the moment is crazy, though predictable.

For one, Kolb has shown himself to be barely better than Skelton and that's an indictment of him, not an endorsement of Skelton.

Tebow is in a very different situation, one where he's pulling the the drives when needed and has an offense that's starting to tailor itself to him, nevermind a team of players that have bought into him and have been helped find a new energy by him.

davyjose · 30-11-2011 06:30PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

No, because Kolb is by far the better QB.

Is he really? i'd love some evidence of this. Kolb's like Orton, a QB who seems like he should be good, but lacks something.

Kolb looked good for a few weeks, a while back, when he stepped in for McNabb. As we now know, McNabb was well past it at the time. Kolb is far from showing that he has any real future as an NFL QB.

tallaghtoutlaws · 30-11-2011 11:43PM

Von Miller could be out of this weeks game for Denver with a bad thumb.

spiralism · 01-12-2011 12:31AM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Von Miller could be out of this weeks game for Denver with a bad thumb.

Good job its the Vikings who could possibly be down Adrian Peterson for another week and Dumervil is fully fit and on form again. I'd say Miller plays with a cast anyways.

Morrisseeee · 01-12-2011 08:47AM

spiralism wrote:

I'd say Miller plays with a cast anyways.

Imagine the damage he could do with a cast !! :pac:

I think this thread should end now and a new one should start:

Tebow v Newton :cool:

Concannon7 · 01-12-2011 11:06AM

I'm a bit late to this debate but here is my input.

I'm a Broncos fan and a Tebow fan. This whole situation has started to make me uneasy. We are 6-5 yet I'm still not confident of ousting Oakland and taking the division.

I would love to see Tebow succeed. Not only for Denver but for himself. He comes across as a great kid. He seems to stay out of trouble, works really hard at his job and likes to meet with sick kids and help out with those who are less fortunate than him. I know he is not the only NFL player to do so, but for any player that does its commendable.

Right now every story seems to be about Tebow, in the media he is the big talking point. This is no fault of his own, he never asked for this, he was put into this position because of different circumstances. This is the danger. The so called "Tebowmaniacs" are doing him no favours. The man seems to give the whole team around him a lift and help confidence and he is amazing when it comes to running the ball. But as a fan I must ask what happens when the likes of Brees or Rodgers comes to town and we find ourselves two touchdowns down. Running each and every down seems a little less practical then. Its then Tebow will be asked to throw the ball something he is very suspect at doing. The weight of expectation on this man is like no other. Because he has been built up so highly by so many he has a harder fall to take than most if he fails to do what is expected. It is then that the so called "Tebowmaniacs" who have helped build him up will be the first to desert him.

I hope for his own and Denvers sake he succeeds I really do but for me the jury is still out and while he is an amazing worker who gives it everything I still am not confident he has the tools to make it as a long term NFL QB.

D3PO · 01-12-2011 11:34AM

Galway_mad_bhoy wrote: »

. But as a fan I must ask what happens when the likes of Brees or Rodgers comes to town and we find ourselves two touchdowns down..

i had the same discussion with TO actually. The game v Brady and the Pats will quash alot of the current hype.

I genuinelly want Tebow to make it as everything you read says nobody works harder to try and improve.

But right now he isnt ready and Denver have in my eyes put him in a terribly unfair situation.

The problem now with Tebow is that Denver have dug such a hole form themselves by limited the passing game jus tot win short term and theres so much hype that they cant go and to a Carolina on it now next season and let Tebow grow as a passer even if it means taking a losing season.

That option is off the table now completely. So what that means is

1) Tebow grows a lot as a passer durning the next off season and Denver reverts to a more traditional NFL playbook and he wins with his arm or he gets dumped becasue they lose a chunk of games.

or

2) Denver continue to run the read option. which will get found out eventually and I dont just mean by good passing teams, just as the wildcat did in Miami. At which point Tewbow will be dropped like a hot potato never to get another shot in denver

What should have happened if they were serious about Tebow was letting him throw the football. Take the losses if they came written off this season and geared up for next. Its hard to argue that a team one game out of th eplacoffs should ahve written off the season I know that, but this was their opportunity in Fox's first year to have leaway to do this that leway is gone now and nothing but wins will do.

Its a case of one step forward and two steps back if you ask me.

Stev_o · 01-12-2011 12:03PM

I always wondered the reason why people said "Play tight man coverage and you ll kill Tebow with his awful accuracy" I would of managed it made more sense to play Zone throughout and cut off the edges with your zones. Obviously this may mean switching your CB's to Safeties to ensure they can actually tackle Tebow but to me it makes a lot more sense and will force Tebow to go deep or into tight coverage while limiting any runs to the outside.

Chucky the tree · 01-12-2011 03:31PM

I actually think Tebowmania will be the reason he doesn't succeed as an nfl QB. I feel sorry for him but he really hasn't helped his own case either.

Syferus · 01-12-2011 04:27PM

If this is Tebow in a 'terribly unfair situation', I'd fear for critics sanity in a good situation. He's dealing, and dealing well.

The joy about sport is that however knowledgeable we think we are we don't know what's going to happen and no one has embodied that old cliche better than Tebow.

spiralism · 01-12-2011 06:14PM

Syferus wrote: »

If this is Tebow in a 'terribly unfair situation', I'd fear for critics sanity in a good situation. He's dealing, and dealing well.

The joy about sport is that however knowledgeable we think we are we don't know what's going to happen and no one has embodied that old cliche better than Tebow.

you'd swear Tebow was this emotionally fragile stickman instead of a two time national champion, heisman winner and physical specimen who has overcome every obstacle put in his way over his career to date. he can clearly take a bit of pressure, it makes him better for it.

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