To those getting shafted by college fees

Wolfe Tone · 08-11-2011 12:40AM

amacachi wrote: »

Why should everyone else have to invest in your (or my) education though? If you're dedicated enough then the one night out every two weeks could be sacrificed to cover a 500 or so increase in the reg. fee.

I still can't see the problem with loans. It's up to you if you want to do them or not.

When I go out I spend under a tenner.

If the govt help me get educated so I get a well paid job they will benefit with all the extra tax they get which they wouldn't if I spent my life working at a low paid job which I didn't need a degree for.

So you personally, ideally, would benefit because there would be more cash for public services and the like.

amacachi · 08-11-2011 12:40AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Which leads to the expectation that because these degrees are devalued, there is an expectation that any idiot with a pencil can get a degree while overlooking people without any sort of third level education. "Oh, you're so stupid, you don't even have a bog standard would not wipe your arse degree!". Do you see where I am coming from?

Some places would simply bin an application these days on the basis of not having a degree. I've seen it happen myself, and these sure as hell aren't fortune 500 companies.

Yep, and free fees has contributed massively to that. Also since their introduction there's been no increase in the proportion of students in third level from the bottom of the socio-economic pile, only the middle classes.

Dudess · 08-11-2011 12:40AM

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

Miss Olenska · 08-11-2011 12:41AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Which leads to the expectation that because these degrees are devalued, there is an expectation that any idiot with a pencil can get a degree while overlooking people without any sort of third level education. "Oh, you're so stupid, you don't even have a bog standard would not wipe your arse degree!". Do you see where I am coming from?

Some places would simply bin an application these days on the basis of not having a degree. I've seen it happen myself, and these sure as hell aren't fortune 500 companies.

Standards HAVE dropped. OK, getting a degree takes graft but grade inflation has been demonstrably happening. It was much rarer to get a 2:1 twenty years ago than now, 1:1s even moreso. I got a 2:1, believe me when I say I really really didn't deserve it. 20 years ago, I would have been lucky to scrape a 2:2!

amacachi · 08-11-2011 12:42AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

When I go out I spend under a tenner.

If the govt help me get educated so I get a well paid job they will benefit with all the extra tax they get which they wouldn't if I spent my life working at a low paid job which I didn't need a degree for.

So you personally, ideally, would benefit because there would be more cash for public services and the like.

You sound like a barrel of laughs. :pac:

I'm familiar with economics, but trying to use the circular flow argument in a country consistently ranked as being one of the most open economies in the world really doesn't help your argument.

Miss Olenska · 08-11-2011 12:42AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

+1

amacachi · 08-11-2011 12:43AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

As I said, I bet if there was the prospect of 25k fees for college there'd be a pretty big fall in the uptake for Junior Cert grinds. :pac:

Wolfe Tone · 08-11-2011 12:43AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

You've touched on a big problem. Some people have parents who:

Won't pay for their college
Can't afford to even though their income is above the level

Those young people are effectively fcuked.

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 12:44AM

Domo230 wrote: »

That's been my experience so far. I was told by a recruiter that I was fully qualified, had a great portfolio (computer science stuff) but because I did not have a degree would not be considered.

That was a pretty low day. I am underqualified for these posts but I have a sneaking suspicion that my previous college experience means I am also considered overqualified for many of the minimum wage jobs I am currently searching for. I am young but have an impressive CV. I have a feeling that many do not consider me for certain posts because they think I will leave them as soon as I get the money to return to college (which to be fair is true)

Sometimes it feels like I am trapped by my level of education.

I feel bad for your situation. I don't know what to say. Just keep the head up and consider all options. I have been turned down a number of times myself in the last year, despite having a degree, so don't beat yourself up about that. It's simply a reflection of the times when both good and bad reasons are being used to disqualify someone.

Things will pick up again, you can bet on that. In the meantime, if you have time to kill, you should consider all your options. Employers don't want to hire people in this country at present. It's more than simply not having a degree I am afraid. That is the sad truth. Best of luck whatever you do.

Dudess · 08-11-2011 12:46AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

You've touched on a big problem. Some people have parents who:

Won't pay for their college
Can't afford to even though their income is above the level

Those young people are effectively fcuked.

Yep, those kinda factors are the ones which would make the means testing thing difficult to work.

Wolfe Tone · 08-11-2011 12:47AM

amacachi wrote: »

You sound like a barrel of laughs. :pac:

I'm familiar with economics, but trying to use the circular flow argument in a country consistently ranked as being one of the most open economies in the world really doesn't help your argument.

You'd be surprised, fiver for six cans for predrinks, money for the bus into town, cheaplist/freelist into a club then pool in with your friends to a get a taxi home. Its doable when it is literally all you can afford.

I think its a good argument to be fair. They will get more tax out of me then they would have if I didn't go to college.

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 12:47AM

amacachi wrote: »

Yep, and free fees has contributed massively to that. Also since their introduction there's been no increase in the proportion of students in third level from the bottom of the socio-economic pile, only the middle classes.

It's essentially a trap designed for the interests of the colleges and employment venues. They won't tell you this, but that is the truth. I always read between the lines, they won't fool me. I mean come on, a degree in ****ing hotel management? What the fuuuu

30 years ago, you just did whateveer you need to do for most jobs. They want to control every aspect of your life these days tbh.

I smell a conspiracy...

amacachi · 08-11-2011 12:53AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You'd be surprised, fiver for six cans for predrinks, money for the bus into town, cheaplist/freelist into a club then pool in with your friends to a get a taxi home. Its doable when it is literally all you can afford.

I think its a good argument to be fair. They will get more tax out of me then they would have if I didn't go to college.

Nah I'm a cheap bastard, probably not cheap enough to go into a club that charges a quid at the door though. :pac:

There's also the reasonably high risk though that people doing subjects in the professions will just go off abroad where it seems right now there'll be better prospects.

I'm just not a fan of state interference in general. I'm heading back to college next year and if a loan is needed and it's available I won't mind. If they go the "middle ground" and it's a stupid high reg. fee with lower income threshold that can't be deferred and there's no loans available for it, I will be quite annoyed. I did two years of 3+ hours a day commuting while paying back a loan I had to get for a year's fees + the reg. fee. I know it's a pain in the arse but as far as I'm concerned I was lucky for it to even be possible.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 12:54AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Why not get your education abroad? I am a big believer in the free market, so why put up with increasing fees while the quality of third level education goes down? The amount you invest should be proportional to the actual quality of the education you recieve. Unlike most other nations, irish education appears to operate on the basis of an inverse relationship. This is not opinion, the league tables speak for themselves.

With the exception of the UK and the Ecole Polytechnique and Ecole Normale Superieure in France, ETH Zurich and EPF Lausanne in Switzerland, the two Munich universities, and Heidelberg in Germany, Uppsala in Sweden and Copehagen and throw in Leuven, Delft and one or two others most mainland European universities aren't up to scratch. Unless you're going to one of the above mentioned, Irish universities don't actually do too badly.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Of course if the Irish education "system" wasnt so embarrassingly shyte when it came to teaching continental languages............

To be fair even if Irish education was good, learning French and German (Spanish and Italian universities are generally a lot ****ter than ours) to a level fluent enough to actually study at university is a challenge. I know lots of French and Spanish who could 'speak' English but were utterly clueless when it came to university level lectures.

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Not necessarily. Many courses abroad are done through English, with the Sciences being the main type.

A small number are, generally medical and dentistry. It certainly isn't 'many' though.

Jimoslimos · 08-11-2011 12:56AM

For postgraduate courses it should definitely be on people's radar. Looking at a MSc course in the Netherlands (in a higher ranked uni than anything in Ireland I might add) for instance is approx €1700 compared to €7000 here.

In fact I think it's something that should be encouraged. I've seen too many students become institutionalised here - same college for degree - masters - PhD - postdoc. People would benefit from experiencing full-time education in a different university/country.

amacachi · 08-11-2011 12:56AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

It's essentially a trap designed for the interests of the colleges and employment venues. They won't tell you this, but that is the truth. I always read between the lines, they won't fool me. I mean come on, a degree in ****ing hotel management? What the fuuuu 30 years ago, you just did whateveer you need to do for most jobs. They want to control every aspect of your life these days tbh.

I smell a conspiracy...

Free fees or student loans? Have heard that about both. :pac:

IMO there should be no non-researching teaching posts in anything that wants to be called something better than an IFE. Some of the spending in colleges just makes me want to cry. In Dundalk IT a whole building was bought and renovated for the "creative arts" while the electronics students have to vouch for every resistor that's taken. :pac:

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 12:58AM

Dudess wrote: »

Loans system is a good option IMO.

I don't really see why people are opposed to a loan system, it seems very fair, everyone starts off and finishes on an equal footing. The only problem I can see is that certain courses become 'demeaned' as the rush for the courses with the best career prospects becomes the be all and end all. In some ways if this meant the end of the 'madey-uppy' courses it can only be a good thing. This hasn't happened in the UK though so I suppose this isn't a guaranteed outcome.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:01AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

For postgraduate courses it should definitely be on people's radar. Looking at a MSc course in the Netherlands (in a higher ranked uni than anything in Ireland I might add) for instance is approx €1700 compared to €7000 here.

What university? With the exception of Delft I can't think of any that are significantly better than Irish ones.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

In fact I think it's something that should be encouraged. I've seen too many students become institutionalised here - same college for degree - masters - PhD - postdoc. People would benefit from experiencing full-time education in a different university/country.

To be fair, that's not a uniquely Irish issue. The term for it is 'academic incest' and it happens everywhere. I would strongly agree that unless you have some outstanding researchers you wish to work with in your current university it's a good idea to move around as much as possible.

Jimoslimos · 08-11-2011 01:06AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

With the exception of the UK and the Ecole Polytechnique and Ecole Normale Superieure in France, ETH Zurich and EPF Lausanne in Switzerland, the two Munich universities, and Heidelberg in Germany, Uppsala in Sweden and Copehagen and throw in Leuven, Delft and one or two others most mainland European universities aren't up to scratch. Unless you're going to one of the above mentioned, Irish universities don't actually do too badly.

I beg to differ, see link below. We have 2 universities in the top 200, (UCD & Trinity) and none in the top 100. Actually this isn't a bad statistic given our population size but there is a lot of European universities rated higher than ours. These do tend to be in the UK unsuprisingly, but also quite a few in The Netherlands, Switzerland and Sweden

Times World University Rankings - Europe

Jimoslimos · 08-11-2011 01:11AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

What university? With the exception of Delft I can't think of any that are significantly better than Irish ones.

Leuven
Utrecht
Wageningen University and Research Center
Leiden
University of Amsterdam
Delft (mentioned)
Eindhoven University of Technology

all ranked above Trinity

pragmatic1 · 08-11-2011 01:15AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Amazing to always hear of college students being hard done by, a lot of my friends are students and they go drinking 4-5 nights a week so maybe if they didn't piss all there money up the wall they might be able to pay their own college fees rather than the working tax payer footing the bill!

You must have rich friends then. College has changed.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:17AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I beg to differ, see link below. We have 2 universities in the top 200, (UCD & Trinity) and none in the top 100. Actually this isn't a bad statistic given our population size but there is a lot of European universities rated higher than ours. These do tend to be in the UK unsuprisingly, but also quite a few in The Netherlands, Switzerland and Sweden

Times World University Rankings - Europe

To be honest I'm a tad wary putting too much emphasis on university rankings.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011?page=1

Using the QS ranking system Trinity jumps to 65 globally. It seems very hard to explain such a massive difference between the two most reputable ranking systems wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, I do think Irish universities aren't doing too badly considering our population size and wealth. When we're put beside the likes of Sweden, Denmark, Belgium we do quite well. We also do far better than the Italian, Spanish and Portugese universities. All in all I don't think we're doing too badly.

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 01:19AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

Anyway, I do think Irish universities aren't doing too badly considering our population size and wealth. When we're put beside the likes of Sweden, Denmark, Belgium we do quite well. We also do far better than the Italian, Spanish and Portugese universities. All in all I don't think we're doing too badly.

*Ring Ring* Angella Merkel would like to have a word with you. We overpay Senior Academics in this country. Compare the average pay in Europe to here if you don't believe me.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:20AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Leuven
Utrecht
Wageningen University and Research Center
Leiden
University of Amsterdam
Delft (mentioned)
Eindhoven University of Technology

all ranked above Trinity

Ah but using QS rankings only Amsterdam comes above Trinity and only by 2 or 3 spots. See what I mean about ranking? It's very subjective. I think it's fairer to judge each faculty of a university separately rather than the univeristy as a whole.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:21AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

*Ring Ring* Angella Merkel would like to have a word with you. We overpay Senior Academics in this country. Compare the average pay in Europe to here if you don't believe me.

Sorry, I have no idea what that has to do with my post? Can you explain?

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 01:21AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

Ah but using QS rankings only Amsterdam comes above Trinity and only by 2 or 3 spots. See what I mean about ranking? It's very subjective. I think it's fairer to judge each faculty of a university separately rather than the univeristy as a whole.

Not trying to have a go at you, but what you "think" does not matter. These are the rankings used internationally. It's not right, but that is how it is. These rankings are influential. Very crude system, but it's the tool of the trade.

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:26AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Not trying to have a go at you, but what you "think" does not matter. These are the rankings used internationally. It's not right, but that is how it is. These rankings are influential. Very crude system, but it's the tool of the trade.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I was pointing out the significant differences between the Times and QS rankings to indicate how subjective ranking systems are and was suggesting that comparing faculties is a better method. I'm not suggesting that my 'ideas' are somehow going to be used for ranking unviersities, I'm hardly that fcuking naive. I think you're picking up on something I never even implied.

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 01:28AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding me. I was pointing out the significant differences between the Times and QS rankings to indicate how subjective ranking systems are and was suggesting that comparing faculties is a better method. I'm not suggesting that my 'ideas' are somehow going to be used for ranking unviersities, I'm hardly that fcuking naive. I think you're picking up on something I never even implied.

:P

HavingCrack · 08-11-2011 01:29AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

:P

Wow, very mature.

TheyKnowMyIP · 08-11-2011 01:31AM

HavingCrack wrote: »

Wow, very mature.

I don't think you should lower yourself to my level. After Hours is full of my type:)

To those getting shafted by college fees

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