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Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

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Comments

  • #152
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,238 ✭✭✭markpb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    DCC estimates 500m liters are used every day. IIRC production is somewhere between 525m & 575m liters. [...] The question that the rest of the country has is: What the f**k are you doing with somewhere between 115m and 200m liters of water every day?

    The rest of the country is asking you to buy a new calculator :) DCC are the primary water supply authority for the four local councils in Dublin and two neighbouring councils (Kildare and Wicklow), not just Dublin city. The 575Ml covers the water usage of a metropolitan area of over 1.4m people, not the 500k that live in Dublin city. Using those figures means that Dublin uses less water than Galway city. (640l pp in Galway vs 410l in Dublin).
    Approximately 98% of water distributed in Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council is supplied from Dublin City Council treatment works at Roundwood (Vartry), Ballymore Eustace (Liffey) and Ballyboden (Dodder). The remaining 2% is supplied from a number of small treatment plants within the County.
    link
    Every day 540 million litres of high quality drinking water is produced and supplied to over 1.4 million customers in the Dublin Region. Dublin City Council's Water Services Division is responsible for supplying 70% of this water and the balance is being provided by Fingal County Council. It is then distributed to customers in Dublin City and in the South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, Fingal, Kildare and Wicklow County Council areas.
    link

    So the real question is what are people in Galway doing with an extra 200l a day of water?


  • #153
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    markpb wrote: »
    The rest of the country is asking you to buy a new calculator :)
    I see your new calculator and raise you a math education - you obviously didn't check up on my figures. My figures are for 1.2m people in the 4 Dublin local authorities areas (check the maths 1.2m/75k * 24m = 384m L).
    markpb wrote: »
    DCC are the primary water supply authority for the four local councils in Dublin and two neighbouring councils (Kildare and Wicklow), not just Dublin city. The 575Ml covers the water usage of a metropolitan area of over 1.4m people, not the 500k that live in Dublin city. Using those figures means that Dublin uses less water than Galway city. (640l pp in Galway vs 410l in Dublin).

    DCC puts the total figure for Dubin at it at 500m - the supply in Galway is also used by in the county so the 75k population is low, the problem for the comparison is that I don't know what areas the water is supplied to - I'd image more than 20k of a population but since I can't prove it I'm relying solely on those within the city boundary. So I can't do a fair comparison per head of population.

    Did anyone consider the possibility of creating water supplies for the 3/4 other local authorities instead? It'd probably cost more but make the overall population more sustainable.


    Galway city has a supply of 48,000 cubic meters per day (1 cubic meter being 1,000L)
    Galway City Council now produces 48,000 m3 of high quality water per day, which is sufficient to meet the needs of the City and parts of Galway County and it was this extra capacity that helped the City cope with the increased demand during the recent severe weather.

    With local media reports putting wastage/ water unaccounted for at about 50% that's where I get a usage figure of 24m L.
    Currently about 50% of Galway City’s water is ‘unaccounted for’, or wasted through leaks


  • #154
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Lots of it leaks in Tonabrocky reservoir and on the rising main to it. The Reservoir is being replaced next year or the year after.


  • #155
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Lots of it leaks in Tonabrocky reservoir and on the rising main to it. The Reservoir is being replaced next year or the year after.

    Yeah, I'd love to know why they've plans to go to 80m per day tho.


  • #156
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Ah, we are getting to the core now, it's about peoples attitude, not the bare facts, ie: Fook them, they aren't getting a drop of our water cause they have an attitude...

    Oh, and it's not "your" water.

    Neither is it "yours" or "theirs". If water is needed in the city we pipe it over. If Cork needs the water it goes there etc.

    It's a national matter. I don't think that DCC have any "attitude" they are just stating what is required. The perceived attitude is concocted by those who have an attitude already - they think the water is "theirs" for some reason.


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  • #157
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I see your new calculator and raise you a math education - you obviously didn't check up on my figures. My figures are for 1.2m people in the 4 Dublin local authorities areas (check the maths 1.2m/75k * 24m = 384m L).
    Why would anyone check your figures when they are totally irrelevant anyway?

    You are calculating demand for water based on domestic consumption of the permanent population alone. Huge qualities of water are also used in many industrial processes which will distort your figures. Also a large population from outside Dublin who travel into the capital every day for work, college, leisure, etc. and these between them will also use a large amounts of water. Neither of these are considered in your calculations so I guess its time to get the abacus out again.


  • #158
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Why would anyone check your figures when they are totally irrelevant anyway?

    You are calculating demand for water based on domestic consumption of the permanent population alone. Huge qualities of water are also used in many industrial processes which will distort your figures. Also a large population from outside Dublin who travel into the capital every day for work, college, leisure, etc. and these between them will also use a large amounts of water. Neither of these are considered in your calculations so I guess its time to get the abacus out again.


    Absent employment & tourism statistics that's a hard comparison to make fairly - besides the residential population is the one getting blamed for wastage (water costs business money so they'll fix leaks etc)

    BTW, all the same considerations can be applied to Galway, which (I get the impression) has a higher proportion of amnufactirung industry vs office work.


  • #159
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    BrianD wrote: »
    The perceived attitude is concocted by those who have an attitude already - they think the water is "theirs" for some reason.

    You're saying exactly what I was saying! :o


  • #160
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Absent employment & tourism statistics that's a hard comparison to make fairly - besides the residential population is the one getting blamed for wastage (water costs business money so they'll fix leaks etc)

    BTW, all the same considerations can be applied to Galway, which (I get the impression) has a higher proportion of amnufactirung industry vs office work.
    I dont know what you are getting at here, this has nothing to do with waste - the point I made was that Dublin needs new sources of water regardless of leaks - but actual demand.

    You estimated Dublins water needs based on figures for Galway which you applied to Dublin. Your figures suggest that Dublin does not need the 500 million litres a day which DCC wants and questioned What the f**k are you doing with somewhere between 115m and 200m liters of water every day? I was pointing out that Dublin will need a lot more water than your calculations suggest because there is a huge population which comes into the city every day, uses water, then goes home, which you have not accounted for.


  • #161
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Hey! This thread is about supplying Dublin with Shannon water. Doesn't Galway have two huge lakes right beside it? :)


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  • #162
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    there is a huge population which comes into the city every day, uses water, then goes home, which you have not accounted for.

    The same applies to Galway hence the attempt at extrapolation.

    So here's a suggestion for you go calculate the requirements from available figures (lord knows I've tried to get to the bottom of it). Come up with something that looks valid and I'll admit that I'm wrong and go away.

    I'm seeing a lot of fudging and hearing "trust us" from DCC, but not a lot of hard facts and figures. The ones they do supply appear to change to suit their needs. As an example, a couple of years ago I remember DCCs estimates of the water requirements being 160 Litres/Property/Day. According to markpb's post it's now 450 Litres/Property/Day.


  • #163
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Hey! This thread is about supplying Dublin with Shannon water. Doesn't Galway have two huge lakes right beside it? :)

    That's right, one of those is fed by the Shannon, so you can't take our water :p

    In all seriousness, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the usage figures and Galway's are the only ones I have to hand for comparison.


  • #164
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Dublin's water problems are very much symptomatic of the lack of planning and lack of forward thinking that has gone on in Ireland over the last 20+ years.

    Dublin is still stuck with infrastructure for water that has remained relatively unchanged in decades. There is absolutely no excuse for a city that size in a country this wet having water shortages.

    The problem is largely one of lack of storage rather than lack of supply.

    I would agree that there is a need to look at that shannon project, particularly if it will include a large amount of water storage capacity. If it is simply abstracting water from the Shannon without providing serious storage, it would be a complete waste of time.

    They also need to look at finding extra water storage capacity closer to Dublin itself. The existing reservoir systems are ridiculously under sized for the urban area they're serving which is why the water runs out. It's not caused by drought, that's for sure!

    Meanwhile, Cork seems to have had a bit of far-sighted planning. The Iniscarra dam system seems capable of providing the Cork metropolitan area of about 390,000 people with more than enough water to cover domestic and industrial use way into the future.

    Although, it still boggles the mind that Cork City Council is still abstracting water from the old water works site on downstream of the dam. It was established in the 1760s and as as demonstrated catastrophically a few years ago, it is at flood risk.

    In general, Irish water infrastructure is a complete joke! Much like many other aspects of our infrastructure.

    You'd really think in a country with this much rain, that water would be one of the things that we could get right.

    The water outages in Cork City after that flood were really unacceptable in a 21st century city. Tens of thousands of people had no water for up to 4 weeks.
    Our house is almost in the city centre and we had to actually move into a hotel for a while as it was just impossible to shower / wash etc.

    There were also some companies that I am aware of who considered re-locating out of Cork altogether if this happened again. I'm talking service companies etc.

    People were turning up to work unable to wash, so were stinking, companies had to close due to lack of toilets it was mayhem.

    Ireland absolutely has to take water seriously if we are going to get anywhere. One more major outage like that and we will lose jobs and reputation.

    If water were lost to a major multinational manufacturing site for that length of time, it could have meant thousands of job losses.

    Then take a look at Galway where the local authorities seem to have created a situation where they allowed sewage to go into the same lake that they abstracting the city's water from. I mean, seriously, that is just *BAD*.


  • #165
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Come up with something that looks valid and I'll admit that I'm wrong and go away

    The independent doctor that crunched the figures, did the studies turned up on RTE and came up with valid reasons why Dublin needs the Shanon water.


  • #166
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    The independent doctor that crunched the figures, did the studies turned up on RTE and came up with valid reasons why Dublin needs the Shanon water.
    What about the other independent analyst (can't remember what he was), apparently interviewed from the docklands who questioned the need for it?


  • #167
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    antoobrien wrote: »
    What about the other independent analyst (can't remember what he was), apparently interviewed from the docklands who questioned the need for it?

    Doesn't ring a bell, however, the independent guy on RTE new his beans, he had all the facts and figures, he was unbiased, he's a professional in the field, and has done all the research.


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