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M17/M18 scheme: should it be built?
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invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?
It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.
Well I'm taking the view that projects like the Tralee bypass, N25, M11 and N52 upgrades represent a more realistic approach to spending meagre resources in the times we're in.
Whatever about the merits of the Tralee bypass vis a vis AADTs and the like, as a sub 100 million project it's a far more realistic project to fund then the M17/18 which i gather is still struggling for financing and will require I'm sure significant financial guarantess from the state in order to proceed.
We've grown used to being spoiled by big ticket transport projects with eye watering costs in the bubble times. I make the argument that until the domestic situation improves, or some sort of public works stimulus is in place, then small scale upgrades of national and local routes as well as public transport spending represents best use of public money.How much will the M17/18 cost?
A lot more then the Tralee bypass that's for the sure if it ever get's built.It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.
We could have had cheap and functional bypasses of Tuam & Claregalway in place right now if those schemes were kept on the priority list rather then being rolled into the bubble era T21 'Atlantic Corridor' plan. It might not have been perfect but at least th worst bottlenecks would have been covered.0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »We've grown used to being spoiled by big ticket transport projects with eye watering costs in the bubble times. I make the argument that until the domestic situation improves, or some sort of public works stimulus is in place, then small scale upgrades of national and local routes as well as public transport spending represents best use of public money.
You're joking right?0 -
CerebralCortex wrote: »You're joking right?
Think he has a point. Land grab costs were at a premium when roads were being built. Bad luck with timing etc but it still rings true.
Also the fact that when you compare amount of roadbuilding in <2000 with what happened in last 10 years. 10 years back we only had M4 to Kilcock, M7 in bits and pieces (and even then only as far as Portlaoise), no M8 whatsoever and no M6 whatsoever.
As for not building more now, im not so much in agreement. Get the schemes for Adare and ClareGalway/Tuam sorted, throw in some more M20 and we wont be doing so bad0 -
CerebralCortex wrote: »You're joking right?
Clearly you weren't in the country during the late 1990s - to mid 2000s.0 -
Of course once fixed tendering was brought in the actual overruns ceased. The problem of course at time was the continue galloping ahead of land prices. Given the collaspe in prices of agriculture land now it would make sense for at least the NRA to start doing the fieldwork/CPO's for projects that will be need in 15-20 years time.0
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veryangryman wrote: »Think he has a point. Land grab costs were at a premium when roads were being built. Bad luck with timing etc but it still rings true.
Land prices played a large part alright in the recent past (thank you IFA:rolleyes:) but when I'm referring to cost I'm really referring to the potential for the M17/18 project to eat up entirely what limited resources that are there irrespective of whatever funding mechanism is found for it.veryangryman wrote: »Also the fact that when you compare amount of roadbuilding in <2000 with what happened in last 10 years. 10 years back we only had M4 to Kilcock, M7 in bits and pieces (and even then only as far as Portlaoise), no M8 whatsoever and no M6 whatsoever.
You've stumbled onto an excellent point. Most of the major motorways in this country were built in a piecemeal manner with bypasses of the worst bottlenecks being built first. No one is saying to never build the M17/18/20, but that building priority bypasses of the worst towns now and filling in the gaps later is the optimal solution when resources are extremely limited. Again let us remember Claregalway and Tuam would have had bypasses either built now or near completion if they'd just been left alone.veryangryman wrote: »As for not building more now, im not so much in agreement. Get the schemes for Adare and ClareGalway/Tuam sorted, throw in some more M20 and we wont be doing so bad
I say disentangle these schemes from the grandiose Atlantic Corridor notion and just build bypasses of the towns instead.0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Land prices played a large part alright in the recent past (thank you IFA:rolleyes:) but when I'm referring to cost I'm really referring to the potential for the M17/18 project to eat up entirely what limited resources that are there irrespective of whatever funding mechanism is found for it.
The land is already paid for.With regards the Gort to Tuam motorway, around €120 million has already been spent on this scheme with the vast majority of this being on the acquisition of lands along the 57 kilometre route.invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?
It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.
How much will the M17/18 cost?
It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »A lot more then the Tralee bypass that's for the sure if it ever get's built.
We could have had cheap and functional bypasses of Tuam & Claregalway in place right now if those schemes were kept on the priority list rather then being rolled into the bubble era T21 'Atlantic Corridor' plan. It might not have been perfect but at least th worst bottlenecks would have been covered.
What about Loughgeorge & Knockdoe (i'm not sure if these 2 appear on the map but if you actually use the road you'll know where I'm referring to) which also have a significant effect on rush hour traffic on the N17 between Galway & Tuam.
We're also missing Ardrahan and Kilcolgan (junction of N18 & N67) from the list of bypassed towns and villages. For spite I could throw in Labane, but I'm not that petty (besides if you blink you'll miss it, a bit like Coldwood on the old N6).
By the way your idea of value for money is very different from mine. For simplicity I'm assuming that the Tralee project includes land costs (however looking at the expected costs per km, it looks like the Tralee project does not include land acquisition costs -5.05m vs 5.25m). Here's basic analysis of the two projects.
M17/18 Costs
Estimated construction cost M17/18 (57km of DC)- €300m
Money already spent on land €120m
Total Estimated cost: €420m
Total no Bypasses: 7
Total Cost per bypass (lincl land) = €60m
Total Cost per bypass (construction only) = €42.85m
Total Cost Per KM (lincl land) = 7.36m
Total Cost Per KM (construction only) = 5.26m
Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km €5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).
No matter what way you cut that the Tralee bypass comes out badly, and i.m.o. it invalidates the premise of providing bypasses as value for money. If you look at the M17/18 project purely as a set of bypasses and not as a potential Western regional strategic route it provides better value for money than the single bypass of Tralee (43m per bypass vs 97m).
Going by the Tralee figures, if we were to provide only bypasses for the 7 towns and reroute traffic back to the existing N17 & N18, it would cost almost 679m to build equivalent bypasses.
Going back to your original premise (an use your own words) - to build cheap & functional bypasses to the same scale as Tralee around Tuam & Claregalway would cost €194m - vs €300m for the entire scheme. And you're still ignoring the mess that is Clarinbridge to Oranmore (which doesn't get the publicity but is bad).
That doesn't sound cheap to me. And if there are additional land costs for Tralee, as the figures suggest there are, it comes out even worse.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »
That's great, now how much is it going to cost the state to coerce some construction company, any construction company, to build the scheme? It seems to me that this will require shadow tolling at a minimum = more expensive commitments to the state.antoobrien wrote: »What about Loughgeorge & Knockdoe (i'm not sure if these 2 appear on the map but if you actually use the road you'll know where I'm referring to) which also have a significant effect on rush hour traffic on the N17 between Galway & Tuam.
This is what I'm talking about when I mention how people are spoiled by the idea of big schemes bypassing everything. Irish motorists have for the past 2 decades become well use to motorways being built in a piecemeal manner, so what does it matter if commuters have to go through a few small villages for a few years? Plenty of people have done it, indeed plenty of people still do after they come off the motorway network around the country.antoobrien wrote: »We're also missing Ardrahan and Kilcolgan (junction of N18 & N67) from the list of bypassed towns and villages. For spite I could throw in Labane, but I'm not that petty (besides if you blink you'll miss it, a bit like Coldwood on the old N6).
Again I say: so what? anyone using the motorway network over the past few decades will be used to this kind of setup. It's not ideal but this is real life and real money, not a game of Simcity.antoobrien wrote: »By the way your idea of value for money is very different from mine. For simplicity I'm assuming that the Tralee project includes land costs (however looking at the expected costs per km, it looks like the Tralee project does not include land acquisition costs -5.05m vs 5.25m). Here's basic analysis of the two projects.
My ideal for value for money is simple: there are finite resources available to the DoT, and instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with the Atlantic corridor - a project conceived when revenues to the state were well in excess of what they are now - The Tralee bypass costs sub 100 million, this means other necessary projects can be built around the country.antoobrien wrote: »M17/18 Costs
Estimated construction cost M17/18 (57km of DC)- €300m
Money already spent on land €120m
Total Estimated cost: €420m
Total no Bypasses: 7
Total Cost per bypass (lincl land) = €60m
Total Cost per bypass (construction only) = €42.85m
Total Cost Per KM (lincl land) = 7.36m
Total Cost Per KM (construction only) = 5.26m
Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km €5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).
No matter what way you cut that the Tralee bypass comes out badly, and i.m.o. it invalidates the premise of providing bypasses as value for money. If you look at the M17/18 project purely as a set of bypasses and not as a potential Western regional strategic route it provides better value for money than the single bypass of Tralee (43m per bypass vs 97m).
As I've mentioned it's not just the Tralee route being built, it's the N25/M11/N52 upgrades as well, collectively these represent a greater spread of resources then focusing it on one project in one fairly rural part of the country.antoobrien wrote: »Going by the Tralee figures, if we were to provide only bypasses for the 7 towns and reroute traffic back to the existing N17 & N18, it would cost almost 679m to build equivalent bypasses.
I'm sure if we'd have built the M7 or M8 in one go, or the M50, then the construction costs would have been significantly cheaper then building it in a piecemeal manner.
But guess what? it's not feasible to divert all resources into one project and leave others hanging as you appear to be suggesting. Which is why i suggest bypass the worst bottlenecks on the route and get around to the rest if/when the money is available.antoobrien wrote: »Going back to your original premise (an usyour own words) - to build cheap & functional bypasses to the same scale as Tralee around Tuam & Claregalway would cost €194m - vs €300m for the entire scheme. And you're still ignoring the mess that is Clarinbridge to Oranmore (which doesn't get the publicity but is bad).
Like i said, Tuam and Claregalway would be bypassed now if these projects had proceeded ahead when the revenues were there instead of being lumped into the AC concept. We had 194 million in 2006, we don't really have 300+ million in 2011 to blow without cancelling other schemes.antoobrien wrote: »That doesn't sound cheap to me. And if there are additional land costs for Tralee, as the figures suggest there are, it comes out even worse.
You are overly focused on just the Tralee bypass, it's about best use of public resources, why should the rest of the country have critical projects indefinitely delayed whilst just one project eats up the entire roads spend?0 -
antoobrien wrote: »
Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km €5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).
It's 8km type 2 dc and 5.5 km S2.0 -
The construction cost Gort - Ennis was €90m or around €3m a KM so if the land is bought for Gort - Tuam it should come in under €200m not €300m as others have said.0
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Go back and read it again, the estimated cost is €300m, for a road that has a significant population base to serve it (unlike the jackie healy rae highway tralee bypass) and will provide a strategic regional route. What the hell is Tralee being started for before say Newlands Cross, Adare, New Ross, CLaregalway, Tuam or Calrinbridge?invinciblePRSTV wrote: »That's great, now how much is it going to cost the state to coerce some construction company, any construction company, to build the scheme? It seems to me that this will require shadow tolling at a minimum = more expensive commitments to the state.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »This is what I'm talking about when I mention how people are spoiled by the idea of big schemes bypassing everything. Irish motorists have for the past 2 decades become well use to motorways being built in a piecemeal manner, so what does it matter if commuters have to go through a few small villages for a few years? Plenty of people have done it, indeed plenty of people still do after they come off the motorway network around the country.
So you're willing to throw money at the start and end of the problem but not the middle. A good example of this was the Loughrea bypass, it got the traffic out of Loughrea but the problem was just moved about 5 miles to Kilreekil. It's not about solving a point problem it's about solving the WHOLE problem.
I absolutely hated having to go through Kilbeggan, Horseleap & Moate to get to Athlone and whoever decided that the traffic would land before Kilbeggan should be shot, what's the point of building a motorway to before a place? At least when Ballinalsoe to Galway was built none of that messing went on (like say dropping us off before Aughrim where the it crosses the old N6).invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Again I say: so what? anyone using the motorway network over the past few decades will be used to this kind of setup. It's not ideal but this is real life and real money, not a game of Simcity.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »My ideal for value for money is simple: there are finite resources available to the DoT, and instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with the Atlantic corridor - a project conceived when revenues to the state were well in excess of what they are now - The Tralee bypass costs sub 100 million, this means other necessary projects can be built around the country.
So we spend it on one small town instead of serving a county with a population of 250k and leading into one of the biggest population centers in the country? Seriously, if we're to consider spending money on spot projects as you're suggesting the Newlands Cross upgrade is far more important to the South West of the Country than Tralee ever could be (I feel dirty saying that too).
Tralee = 97m on its owninvinciblePRSTV wrote: »As I've mentioned it's not just the Tralee route being built, it's the N25/M11/N52 upgrades as well, collectively these represent a greater spread of resources then focusing it on one project in one fairly rural part of the country.
N25 = PPP (so we'll be paying for it for years, just like the vast majority of the projects that went ahead over the past 5-10 years)
N52 - has had enough spent on it while biffo was in charge, how the hell can they justify a Tullamore bypass when they can't justify a Galway bypass?
M11 - was PPP but is now tax payer because they want to build Newlands Cross (it was always part of it). Persoanlly I'd split out Newlands from the M11, build Newlands on taxpayersa nd lump the M11 in with the N25
On AADT figures alone (Arlkow north is less than 20k, Claregalway trumps that on it's own and the traffic counters south of Gort recorded 10k before Gort was bypassed - gives over 30k cars using this corridor trying to get to Galway), which makes it a better use of money (not to mention the generally crap roads we have in the West)
Guess what, these roads were built in 30-60KM stretches, M17/18 is 57km (and the M6 was 58km iirc). SO we're not talking about anything new or revolutionary here.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »I'm sure if we'd have built the M7 or M8 in one go, or the M50, then the construction costs would have been significantly cheaper then building it in a piecemeal manner.
Putting a band aid on a broken arm doesn't do much for the arm. If anything having bypasses in the wrong place, especially DCs, can make them more dangerous than the existing road. While the M6 was being built the Athlone DC was effectively used as a high speed race trace to get by people that couldn't be passed previously due to the lack of overtaking opportunities or the passing the 20/30 vehicle convoys that built up along the N6. It wasn't until the Killbeggan to Athlone section opened that the traffic calmed down a bit.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »But guess what? it's not feasible to divert all resources into one project and leave others hanging as you appear to be suggesting. Which is why i suggest bypass the worst bottlenecks on the route and get around to the rest if/when the money is available.
There's been campaigning for a Claregalway bypass for a long time (at least 3 general elections, Noel Grealish has run on that platform for the past 2), since before the AC concept came about. IIRC it was mooted around the time as the Galway bypass in the late 90's. If you think for a second that a CG bypass ever had a chance of being built I suggest you get back in touch with reality. You also seem to forget the 80s and 90s phenomenon of towns & villages campaigning against bypasses (yes it happened) as it would mean the death of the town/village.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Like i said, Tuam and Claregalway would be bypassed now if these projects had proceeded ahead when the revenues were there instead of being lumped into the AC concept. We had 194 million in 2006, we don't really have 300+ million in 2011 to blow without cancelling other schemes.
Why are you under the illusion that we have to find 300m to fund this right now? We don't it's a PPP project. We have to convince someone to borrow 300m (like FCC did for the M6) and have the government pay them over 20/30 years.
I'm focused on the Tralee bypass because it's an example of p*ss poor decision making with national money (buying JHRs vote). There are several places that would get more benefit from this.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »You are overly focused on just the Tralee bypass, it's about best use of public resources, why should the rest of the country have critical projects indefinitely delayed whilst just one project eats up the entire roads spend?
It also shows up the folly of your proposal to built bypasses of towns but (and this is implied because it's what happens) do nothing about the stretches that cause problems - e.g. on the N6 bypassing Loughrea but not doing anything about the realigning 5km twisty (rally track really) between Cappy & Aughrim to make it safer. You don't mind seeing nothing being done with these when you know something is being built, but the idea that a bypass is "good enough" with nothing coming down the road to fix the other problems is insulting.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »Go back and read it again, the estimated cost is €300m, for a road that has a significant population base to serve it (unlike the jackie healy rae highway tralee bypass)
It's a bypass of an urban area and not a predominantly rural scheme. I imagine Tralee's AADTs will be quite respectable in the Irish context if not spectacular.antoobrien wrote: »and will provide a strategic regional route. What the hell is Tralee being started for before say Newlands Cross, Adare, New Ross, CLaregalway, Tuam or Calrinbridge?
Because it's cheaper to start a sub 100 million project rather then waiting on/convincing a consortium to take the risk on the M17/18.antoobrien wrote: »So you're willing to throw money at the start and end of the problem but not the middle. A good example of this was the Loughrea bypass, it got the traffic out of Loughrea but the problem was just moved about 5 miles to Kilreekil. It's not about solving a point problem it's about solving the WHOLE problem.
And the problem is being solved in a piecemeal manner as the state can afford it.antoobrien wrote: »I absolutely hated having to go through Kilbeggan, Horseleap & Moate to get to Athlone and whoever decided that the traffic would land before Kilbeggan should be shot, what's the point of building a motorway to before a place? At least when Ballinalsoe to Galway was built none of that messing went on (like say dropping us off before Aughrim where the it crosses the old N6).
As i said it's not ideal but taking the past few years into consideration which would you have rathered? bypasses of the worst bottlenecks in place now with incremental improvements coming down the line.....
....Or wait and wait and wait whilst the AC is hawked by the government to whoever is desperate enough to build it?antoobrien wrote: »So we spend it on one small town instead of serving a county with a population of 250k and leading into one of the biggest population centers in the country?
Nice massaging of the figures but Galway is still just a medium sized town in international terms. It already has a Motorway serving it solely whereas if it were a UK town it would be lucky to have a junction on a motorway serving somewhere else a lot bigger.
You should consider yourself extremely lucky that we're willing in this country to build massively over spec infrastructure projects to serve such sparsely populated areas which Co. Galway most definitely is.antoobrien wrote: »Seriously, if we're to consider spending money on spot projects as you're suggesting the Newlands Cross upgrade is far more important to the South West of the Country than Tralee ever could be (I feel dirty saying that too).
If it were me I'd only upgrade the infrastructure which is creaking under the strain like your Newlands X and your Cork SRR's, build functional bypasses of bottlenecks like your Claregalways and Tuams and invest whatever other money is left in smaller scale local and national projects of critical importance.
Until such time as the the state's economic prospects pick up.antoobrien wrote: »Tralee = 97m on its own
Tralee is more important a town then Tuam, so why should't it get a bypass?antoobrien wrote: »N25 = PPP (so we'll be paying for it for years, just like the vast majority of the projects that went ahead over the past 5-10 years)
The N25 upgrades will pay for itself in a short time I'd wager.antoobrien wrote: »N52 - has had enough spent on it while biffo was in charge, how the hell can they justify a Tullamore bypass when they can't justify a Galway bypass?
To my mind towns like Tullamore, like Tuam or Claregalway only really need single lane bypasses.antoobrien wrote: »M11 - was PPP but is now tax payer because they want to build Newlands Cross (it was always part of it). Persoanlly I'd split out Newlands from the M11, build Newlands on taxpayersa nd lump the M11 in with the N25
Newlands X, like the SRR upgrades will pay for itself, not sure on the viability of the M11 scheme personally.antoobrien wrote: »On AADT figures alone (Arlkow north is less than 20k, Claregalway trumps that on it's own and the traffic counters south of Gort recorded 10k before Gort was bypassed - gives over 30k cars using this corridor trying to get to Galway), which makes it a better use of money (not to mention the generally crap roads we have in the West)
What this tells me is that not an awful lot of Cork-Limerick-Galway journies are carried out on the route, but that an awful lot of long distance commuting journies are and that when people in the wesht talk about the routes strategic importance, really they just want a nice quick drive home to their one off house 10 miles outside of Gort. Not a good enough reason in my book to advance this project.antoobrien wrote: »Guess what, these roads were built in 30-60KM stretches, M17/18 is 57km (and the M6 was 58km iirc). SO we're not talking about anything new or revolutionary here.
Guess what! The Naas, Portlaoise, Nenagh, Cashel, & Fermoy bypasses were built all on their ownsome! I was certainly glad of these bypasses being built when they were rather then waiting indefinitely for a project to be built all at once.antoobrien wrote: »Putting a band aid on a broken arm doesn't do much for the arm. If anything having bypasses in the wrong place, especially DCs, can make them more dangerous than the existing road. While the M6 was being built the Athlone DC was effectively used as a high speed race trace to get by people that couldn't be passed previously due to the lack of overtaking opportunities or the passing the 20/30 vehicle convoys that built up along the N6. It wasn't until the Killbeggan to Athlone section opened that the traffic calmed down a bit.
Your band aid analogy isn't appropriate, as explained, building motorways can be done so in a piecemeal fashion.antoobrien wrote: »There's been campaigning for a Claregalway bypass for a long time (at least 3 general elections, Noel Grealish has run on that platform for the past 2), since before the AC concept came about. IIRC it was mooted around the time as the Galway bypass in the late 90's. If you think for a second that a CG bypass ever had a chance of being built
I suggest you get back in touch with reality.
I would gladly argue here that that on their own merits, the Galway, Tuam & CG bypasses should have been built by now, but then theire are a lot of projects and towns about the country i could say the same thing about.
If they were still standalone projects then I would gladly argue that at the least, the GCOB & CG BP's should be built ahead of projects like the N52 or Tralee bypass. If they hadn't been rolled into the AC project I'd be pretty certain that at least two of them would be either open or under construction by now.
Instead they were tacked into the AC project, and will stay in NRA purgatory until someone is suckered into building it, just like other projects of equal or greater strategic importance.antoobrien wrote: »Why are you under the illusion that we have to find 300m to fund this right now? We don't it's a PPP project. We have to convince someone to borrow 300m (like FCC did for the M6) and have the government pay them over 20/30 years.
You understand right that taking on a financial commitment of 300m+, even if spread over 20-30 years, is still a significant proposition for a state?. Particularly one with as dire a short and medium term future as the Irish state? you get this right?antoobrien wrote: »I'm focused on the Tralee bypass because it's an example of p*ss poor decision making with national money (buying JHRs vote). There are several places that would get more benefit from this.
Save it for the Tralee bypass thread.antoobrien wrote: »It also shows up the folly of your proposal to built bypasses of towns but (and this is implied because it's what happens) do nothing about the stretches that cause problems - e.g. on the N6 bypassing Loughrea but not doing anything about the realigning 5km twisty (rally track really) between Cappy & Aughrim to make it safer.
I'm going to say this for probably for the umpteenth time, i'm not proposing not building the AC, what i'm proposing is bypassing the critcal bottlenecks now and fill in the gaps later when the cash is there for it.antoobrien wrote: »You don't mind seeing nothing being done with these when you know something is being built
I have no idea what you're trying to say here, please elaborate.antoobrien wrote: »but the idea that a bypass is "good enough" with nothing coming down the road to fix the other problems is insulting.
Don't be silly. Insulting? lol, as i've repeatedly said, the AC can be built once the money is there but until then bypassing the worst bottlenecks isn't exactly insulting, it's the most obvious solution. This is how we've built the national network through good times and bad yet now suddenly according to you it's "insulting"? lol you're having a laugh lad.0 -
The final section of the M18 doesn't solely serve Galway, it will serve a much wider area because..... it will connect to another inter-urban motorway. We will have a motorway network as opposed to having two standalone motorways (Dublin-Galway and Limerick-Gort). The final section of the M18 will mean that the M6 corridor is better utilised (e.g. - people would travel Athlone-Limerick on the motorway network via Rathmorrissey, rather than taking the slightly more direct alternative route on terrible roads; and there are loads more examples of additional journeys that would be done on the M6/M18 corridors once the last section of M18 is complete).invinciblePRSTV wrote: »It's a bypass of an urban area and not a predominantly rural scheme. I imagine Tralee's AADTs will be quite respectable in the Irish context if not spectacular.
Nice massaging of the figures but Galway is still just a medium sized town in international terms. It already has a Motorway serving it solely whereas if it were a UK town it would be lucky to have a junction on a motorway serving somewhere else a lot bigger.
You should consider yourself extremely lucky that we're willing in this country to build massively over spec infrastructure projects to serve such sparsely populated areas which Co. Galway most definitely is.
You talk about Tralee in an Irish context but talk about Galway in an international context. I don't understand that reasoning to be honest.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »What this tells me is that not an awful lot of Cork-Limerick-Galway journies are carried out on the route, but that an awful lot of long distance commuting journies are and that when people in the wesht talk about the routes strategic importance, really they just want a nice quick drive home to their one off house 10 miles outside of Gort. Not a good enough reason in my book to advance this project.
Not surprising given how terrible a lot of the road is.
Galway-Cork is approx the same distance as Galway-Dublin.
I drive Galway-Dublin regularly since the motorway opened (I rarely did when it used to take 4 hours!); I also use Public Transport a lot now (express buses on the m'way are fantastic).
I have never myself driven to Cork and I haven't been to Cork in 15 years (with someone else driving or PT). Granted, the Limerick tunnel and M18 bypassing Crusheen + Gort + the horrible section in between the two towns has improved journey times; driving the N20 and Oranmore-Gort on the N18 is not an appealing journey! The N18 and N20 are definitely stiffling economic activity between Galway, Limerick and Cork. I don't think small bypasses will do much to improve the situation.0 -
how about a thread split, this is getting boring reading point/counter point0
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how about a thread split, this is getting boring reading point/counter point
Why should we split the thread? we're very much on topic besides some people fixating on Tralee and we're discussing individual points related overall to the M17/18 scheme.
No one is forcing you to read it, or stopping you from contributing with I'm sure some scintillating posts of your own so don't bother moaning about how boring it is.
You want short and sharp posts? jog on over to After Hours.The final section of the M18 doesn't solely serve Galway, it will serve a much wider area because..... it will connect to another inter-urban motorway.
Again with the padding, the west of Ireland isn't exactly over populated, your "wider area" served by the M18 is a few small towns, a big one and lot's and lots of rural one offs.We will have a motorway network as opposed to having two standalone motorways (Dublin-Galway and Limerick-Gort). The final section of the M18 will mean that the M6 corridor is better utilised (e.g. - people would travel Athlone-Limerick on the motorway network via Rathmorrissey, rather than taking the slightly more direct alternative route on terrible roads; and there are loads more examples of additional journeys that would be done on the M6/M18 corridors once the last section of M18 is complete).
This is where we differ then, you're focused on joining the blue lines together, which there's nothing wrong with btw, I'm focused on best use of limited resources available.You talk about Tralee in an Irish context but talk about Galway in an international context. I don't understand that reasoning to be honest.
What's there not to understand? On the one hand I said that the Tralee bypass will probably have reasonable AADTs in an Irish context but that building a motorway between 2 Irish 'cities' which are really medium sized towns in an international context is overkill, especially when the public finances are under severe pressure and there's plenty of other projects with similar merits and cheaper costs to do.Not surprising given how terrible a lot of the road is.
Or how small the potential for trade is, afterall what exactly does Galway offer in terms of commerce beyond tourism and a few IDA estates & factories? It's not exactly the major economic hub on the island now is it?Galway-Cork is approx the same distance as Galway-Dublin.
Distance isn't the only factor, population and the potential for usage is the main one imo. As i said perhaps over a period of decades there might be an increase in numbers doing Cork-Galway but let's not kid ourselves, the main beneficiaries of the M17/18 are long distance commuters spread out along the one off housing jungle that is the western seaboard.I have never myself driven to Cork and I haven't been to Cork in 15 years (with someone else driving or PT). Granted, the Limerick tunnel and M18 bypassing Crusheen + Gort + the horrible section in between the two towns has improved journey times; driving the N20 and Oranmore-Gort on the N18 is not an appealing journey! The N18 and N20 are definitely stiffling economic activity between Galway, Limerick and Cork. I don't think small bypasses will do much to improve the situation.
I know a couple of people from North Cork studying in Galway, to a man/woman they maintain the new roads already in place have made a huge difference to their travel times, they also maintain the new sections which you've mentioned resemble ghost roads anytime they drive it.
So I disagree with your observation that small bypasses of the worst bottlenecks won't make much of a difference. From my own experience on the M8, when the bottlenecks at Fermoy & Cashel in particular were eliminated years before the whole motorway was completed, it made a big difference to my journey times despite smaller bottlenecks still being present.0 -
A dual carriageway from Tuam linking directly to the to the Galway outer bypass would be more practical .0
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invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Why should we split the thread? we're very much on topic besides some people fixating on Tralee and we're discussing individual points related overall to the M17/18 scheme.
No one is forcing you to read it, or stopping you from contributing with I'm sure some scintillating posts of your own so don't bother moaning about how boring it is.
You want short and sharp posts? jog on over to After Hours.
My post was not directed at you so no need to get personal.
I come to this thread to see news / information etc about the M17/18. There's several threads on this board discussing the merits of different types of roads and investments etc. so why not take the discussion there instead.0 -
Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17). Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense. Enfield and Loughrea are prime examples - getting a bypass AND a bypass-of-a-bypass (motorway) within 5 years.
What should be done is cut the bureaucracy and split the motorway sections. Why can't the government legislate for that? That way more can be added to the motorway as more money is found, and the route will improve slowly but surely, instead of waiting 10 years then building it all in one go.
Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:
-Newlands Cross upgrade
-M17 and Tuam bypass (more so than the M18, as a commuter route)
-M18
-M20
-Cork SRR0 -
Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17). Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense. Enfield and Loughrea are prime examples - getting a bypass AND a bypass-of-a-bypass (motorway) within 5 years.
In the case of Enfield and Loughrea, these were there as sticking plasters before the motorway projects kicked in. And were very welcome when they arrived. Loughrea still (with 2 bypasses) is choked with traffic most days.
That said, theres alot of cold feet to this idea since that "dont bypass the bypass" looney crowd in Monaghan got into gear. Varadakar should publicly call them morons and turn the first sod, perhaps sticking a middle finger up to them at the same time (he'd get my vote then!)
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Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:
Yes. Castleisland should have been left with half hour hold-ups. Or maybe we should have built a WS2 instead. It would have been a tiny, insignificant bit cheaper yet slower. Or maybe it shouldn't have been built at all, even though it's one of the cheapest road schemes built in recent years. NOT building this as 2+2 would be short-sighted and a waste of money.0 -
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Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17).
Let's be realistic here, most users of the M17/18 are commuters going from Galway to their rural one-off or small settlement many miles away from their place of employment.Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense.
As has been explained repeatedly, building bypasses of the worst bottlenecks first and filling in the rural low AADT gaps later has worked successfully in this country for the past few decades.What should be done is cut the bureaucracy and split the motorway sections. Why can't the government legislate for that? That way more can be added to the motorway as more money is found, and the route will improve slowly but surely, instead of waiting 10 years then building it all in one go.
You seem to be agreeing with me here. Build the critical sections first, build the rest later once the money is there and other important projects are built.Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:
Castleisland, like Tralee or Tuam or Claregalway are small Irish towns where functional WS2 bypasses would do the job perfectly. It's just we're used to being spoiled here in Ireland with regards over specification of new roads.-Newlands Cross upgrade
-M17 and Tuam bypass (more so than the M18, as a commuter route)
-M18
-M20
-Cork SRR
Nah, scrap or delay the AC plan, build a few bypasses of the worst spots - Buttevant, C-Ville, Claregalway, Tuam and focus the rest of the resources elsewhere.0 -
Offline 2+2 is vastly superior to offline WS2 and for the same cost more or less ...whether built at grade or separated. Any alleged overspeccing in Castleisland has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with the choice of 2+2 over WS2 per se.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Castleisland, like Tralee or Tuam or Claregalway are small Irish towns where functional WS2 bypasses would do the job perfectly. It's just we're used to being spoiled here in Ireland with regards over specification of new roads.
I trust that you will clarify your point somewhat next time!0 -
Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17). Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense. Enfield and Loughrea are prime examples - getting a bypass AND a bypass-of-a-bypass (motorway) within 5 years.
What should be done is cut the bureaucracy and split the motorway sections. Why can't the government legislate for that? That way more can be added to the motorway as more money is found, and the route will improve slowly but surely, instead of waiting 10 years then building it all in one go.
Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:
-Newlands Cross upgrade
-M17 and Tuam bypass (more so than the M18, as a commuter route)
-M18
-M20
-Cork SRR
Ordered by priority:
Newlands Cross upgrade
M20
M18
Cork SRR
M17 and Tuam bypass
That would be my preference.0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Or how small the potential for trade is, afterall what exactly does Galway offer in terms of commerce beyond tourism and a few IDA estates & factories? It's not exactly the major economic hub on the island now is it?
Do you really think that about Galway?
Nobody here has ever even hinted that Galway is 'the' major economic hub in Ireland. Obviously Dublin is the major economic hub. That doesn't mean Cork, Galway and Limerick are not important economic hubs also.0 -
- Built bypasses of Tuam and Claregalway
- Finish M18 as far as M6
- Scrap M17 altogether
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With you there.Pete_Cavan wrote: »- Built bypasses of Tuam and Claregalway
- Finish M18 as far as M6
- Scrap M17 altogether
I think, finish the M17 from Gort to near Athenry, a proper Claregalway bypass starting near Loughgeorge to link up with the proposed Galway outer bypass, along with Tuam by pass would be sufficent for many years to come.
Wishful thinking i know.0 -
galwayrush wrote: »With you there.
I think, finish the M17 from Gort to near Athenry, a proper Claregalway bypass starting near Loughgeorge to link up with the proposed Galway outer bypass, along with Tuam by pass would be sufficent for many years to come.
Wishful thinking i know.
Galway bypass wont include an N17 junction so unless the scheme is changed...0 -
There's a case to complete the M18, but no real case for the M17 as a motorway.
Just bypass Claregalway and start saving up for the Galway Bypass.0 -
galwayrush wrote: »a proper Claregalway bypass starting near Loughgeorge to link up with the proposed Galway outer bypass, along with Tuam by pass would be sufficent for many years to come.
Wishful thinking i know.
Not feasible, such a road would have to go north of claregalway, land which is prone to flooding and is very boggy (so difficult to do much heavy construction).
If you're going south of Claregalway, you'd be too close to i.e. within 2km, the tuam rd is 3km from the proposed site of, the the M6 interchange at Glennascaul (one of the citicisms of the port tunnel is that it opens onto the M1 far too close to the m50). Also the land in one of the villages you'd have to go through is prone to flooding (at certain times in the winter the existing road is totally cut by the turlough).
At that rate of going you'd be better off, redesigning the junction at the N63 north of Loughgeorge, widening the N63 to Annach Hill and building that section of the M17 south to Rathmorrissy to link with the M6.0 -
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There's a case to complete the M18, but no real case for the M17 as a motorway.
Just bypass Claregalway and start saving up for the Galway Bypass.
Firstly, I'm sorry for jumping down your throat in the thread relating to the shelving of road projects...
...should have read your post properly before replying!
Now, the above concept is something I've been thinking as well - do we really need the M17 right now - can it not be put on standby as a shovel ready project for when the economy picks up again. Indeed, it seems that the road that's needed right now is the N6 Galway Outer Bypass. The M18 should also be completed as well as the M11 Arklow to Rathnew and N7 NLX. The next priorities should then be the M20, Dunkettle and the N22 CNRR (North Section).
Regards!0
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