e-cigs taken off the shelves in Ireland

tkavan · 01-08-2011 9:35pm #1

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/electronic-cigarettes-taken-off-shelves-over-safety-concerns-514868.html

(Posting through phone so can't use hyperlink to direct straight to news article)

[mod edit - fixed link for you]

allthedoyles · 01-08-2011 9:38pm

I always had my doubts about these ciggies .

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/electronic-cigarettes-taken-off-shelves-over-safety-concerns-514868.html

Link now fixed for you

tkavan · 01-08-2011 9:50pm

I don't think it's the ecigs per se that is the source of worry as far as they are concerned, it's all about the loss in tax revenue from tobacco as more people are converting to e-cigs!

allthedoyles wrote: »

I always had my doubts about these ciggies .

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/electronic-cigarettes-taken-off-shelves-over-safety-concerns-514868.html

Link now fixed for you

Stealthirl · 01-08-2011 10:27pm

Concern has been expressed that the cigarettes, which contain nicotine, may produce harmful chemicals.

well nic is a harmfull cemical in a large dose but what tests did they get this from,theres no sorce listed :rolleyes:

The EU needs to establish if they should be classified as medical devices, medicines or tobacco products.

tobacco ? it doseant contain any

it should be in the same class as nic inhalers/the patch

im amazed that the goverment for years have been forceing the smokeing kills msg,yet when something comes along that is a better option [still not as good as quiting alltoghter] they try to shut it down.

wingnut32 · 02-08-2011 10:06am

This was always going to happen. I wonder how quickly the next stage, whatever that might be, will come.

goz83 · 02-08-2011 2:03pm

Dirty shower of pigs. I see so many people suffering from cigarettes. The ones I cant help with hypnosis, I give them an e-cig instead, meaning they just get nicotine and not the other nasty stuff. The government should be giving these things out for free, to prevent more people from ending up on a trolley, or 8 feet down from smokes.

One other thing baffles me.....Why does nobody know about the sugar they put into cigarettes? Not one person I have met is aware of this. It causes people to put on weight if they try to quit and so many people just start up again.

Samba · 02-08-2011 4:23pm

allthedoyles wrote: »

I always had my doubts about these ciggies .

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/electronic-cigarettes-taken-off-shelves-over-safety-concerns-514868.html

Link now fixed for you

And you may well continue to have them but from reading that article there is nothing at all to suggest your doubts have been confirmed.

Concern has been expressed that the cigarettes, which contain nicotine, may produce harmful chemicals.

These concerns have been continually raised (mostly by tobacco companies it's worth noting) but to date there's been no evidence produced to back up these claims afaik.

Ireland also has one of the highest tax rates on tobacco....

I've emailed info@thepsidotie for further information on who expressed these concerns and on what studies these concerns were based on....

tkavan · 02-08-2011 4:34pm

Well I don't really object to e-cigs taken off the chemists' shelves as they are not a medicinal cessation aid, but for them to justify that action because 'e-cigs may produce harmful chemicals' that is beyond me cause tobacco cigarettes are recognized as full of harmful chemicals but are on sale everywhere!

The other thing is that the article states that the EU needs to establish if e-cigs should be classified as medical devices, medicines or tobacco products, when in fact e-cigs fall under none of the above mentioned categories :rolleyes:

So where do we go from here I wonder !

mewso · 02-08-2011 5:57pm

Well a bit like they are arguing in the UK. There is no need for any kind of classification really. They are recreational products that contain an already regulated product, nicotine, which I assume is covered under harmful substances or some such in realtion to child proof packaging and so on but I don't know for certain.

I would guess they are going by the infamous FDA study which has already been heavily criticised for not doing proper comparisons. They found e-liquid to contain nitro-samines but did not compare those levels to NRT (patches/chewing gum etc.) which have similar levels.

What should concern people is the 5% success rate of NRT products which keeps Pharmacutical Companies, the Tobacco industry and the Governments perfectly happy with a never-ending cycle of smokers going from smoking to using patches or gum and back to smoking again. It's a win win.

goz83 · 02-08-2011 6:13pm

tkavan wrote: »

Well I don't really object to e-cigs taken off the chemists' shelves as they are not a medicinal cessation aid, but for them to justify that action because 'e-cigs may produce harmful chemicals' that is beyond me cause tobacco cigarettes are recognized as full of harmful chemicals but are on sale everywhere!

The other thing is that the article states that the EU needs to establish if e-cigs should be classified as medical devices, medicines or tobacco products, when in fact e-cigs fall under none of the above mentioned categories :rolleyes:

So where do we go from here I wonder !

If they allow nicotine patches and more to the point, nicotine inhalation devices, then they should also allow the E-Cig. My own belief is two-fold;

1) The governments (eu) are losing tax revenue from the large number of people flocking to E-Cigs. So if they do brand them as tobacco products (even though they contain no tobacco) they can charge the higher rates of tax.

2) The manufacturers of the cigaretts which kill countless people and destroy many other lives feel that their comfort zones have been breached a little too dar with a product that looks like and acts like their own product, without the most common side effect; early death.

Bullseye1 · 02-08-2011 6:15pm

Hilarious. Was this the pharmicists themselves or on instruction from the Department of health?

goz83 · 02-08-2011 6:21pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Hilarious. Was this the pharmicists themselves or on instruction from the Department of health?

I would imagine under instruction. Otherwise only some paharmacies would have done this. Funny thing is that you can still buy them at unlicensed premises (car boot sales) and of course, online.

tkavan · 02-08-2011 7:42pm

goz83 wrote: »

I would imagine under instruction. Otherwise only some paharmacies would have done this. Funny thing is that you can still buy them at unlicensed premises (car boot sales) and of course, online.

I suppose it's ok to sell them except in pharmacies cause they are not classified as medical devises or medicinal cessation aid. To be sold in pharmacies e-cigs need to be backed by medical research to establish that fact. But e-cigs never claimed to be a medicinal device it's just an alternative way for smokers.

Jo Satan · 02-08-2011 8:13pm

I'm not so sure that it is just a case of lost revenue, it is estimated that in the UK 1% of smokers have moved to vaping. I would say the numbers would be similar in Ireland. This does not have a huge impact on revenue.

The government has not raised the duty on tobacco in this country for a couple of years, they know if they make cigarettes to expensive smokers will turn to the black market.

I think the state is genuine in its attempt to reduce the numbers of people smoking because of mortality and drain of public health resources. There is more tax revenue to be had from healthy paye workers.
In recent years the govt has moved its focus to restricting the environment in which people can smoke, most recently cars with children passangers.

Ecigs were bound to be regulated at some stage, almost every consumable product is. I just hope that they are categorised as a nicotene replacement therapy and remain un-taxed and for sale.

Oh_Noes · 02-08-2011 8:38pm

Does anyone even really use pharmacies for e-cigs and e-cig accessories? They seem to only sell very basic models which people don't stick with.

I wonder how they will go about enforcing a tax on these devices and all the associated paraphanalia if this is brought in here but not in our neighbours like the UK.

tommy2bad · 03-08-2011 12:28am

Are we sure it was the dep of health or the hse that asked for the removal.

Yeah I know e-cig aren't a smoking cessation device, or a medical device but they stock durex and makeup an all sorts of other things so whats the problem with e-cigs.
Why not just move them from display in the nrt cabinet.

Samba · 04-08-2011 12:13pm

The official position..

www.thepsi.ie

PSI position on electronic cigarettes

The PSI has recently received a number of inquiries regarding the appropriateness of electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) being offered for sale or supply in retail pharmacy businesses, as these products are not currently regulated under either the medicinal products or medical devices legislation.

In addition, the supply of these products in pharmacies requires consideration under the PSI Code of Conduct, as pharmacists should ensure that products supplied do not pose a hazard to a patient's health or well-being.

Electronic cigarettes
Electronic cigarette products are typically presented in two parts, one of which is a device and the other a fill or refill consisting of a solution of various compositions containing Nicotine. These products are not currently being regulated under the medicinal products legislation, medical devices
legislation or tobacco legislation. It should be noted that they do come within the scope of the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) Directive.
Agreement has not yet been reached as to the legal classification of these products, i.e. whether they are medicinal products that would require appropriate marketing authorisation, or whether they are medical devices, in which case an appropriate notification to an EU competent body would
be required, including appropriate labelling, before being placed on the market.

EU Position
The PSI understands that the EU Commission has recently commenced a public consultation with respect to the possible revision of the Tobacco Products Directive 2001/37/EC, and that one of the issues being considered is the extension of the scope of that Directive to cover electronic nicotine
delivery systems where such products are presented as alternatives to cigarettes. It has also been noted that these kinds of products have the potential of undermining smoking cessation policies, since they keep the smoking addiction (EC Orientation Note on Electronic Cigarettes, May 2008*).
This EC Orientation Note also gave consideration to whether or not these products can be characterised as human medicines and thereby requiring regulation as authorised medicinal products.

It stated that where such products are presented for use in or to assist in smoking cessation, they are regarded as medicinal products. This means that such products would be required to be the subject of a marketing authorisation before being placed on the market in Ireland, and this would be a particular issue if they were to be supplied through retail pharmacy businesses.

Under the heading Human medicine by presentation, the EC Orientation Note states that a product is also presented as a medicinal product whenever any averagely well-informed consumer gains the impression that the product in question should, having regard to its presentation, have the
properties for treating or preventing disease in human beings. In this context, presentation would include recommendations for use given via the labelling, leaflets or verbally.

PSI guidance to pharmacists and retail pharmacy businesses
In the absence of appropriate regulation (i.e. as medicinal products or as medical devices), the PSI considers that it would not be appropriate for any of these products to be offered for sale or supply in retail pharmacy businesses in Ireland. Members of the public have a right to expect that the
quality, safety and efficacy of any such products supplied in pharmacies have been appropriately established and independently assured.

In addition, pharmacies and pharmacists play an increasingly important role in the provision of public health protection information and services to the public, including information, services and advice on smoking cessation.
Under the Code of Conduct, pharmacists are required to ensure that products supplied to patients do not pose a hazard to a patient’s health or wellbeing, as may be the case if a person were to resort to a particular product in respect of which the safety and efficacy had not been established against
other products and treatments that have met the required standards of safety and efficacy.

* EC Orientation Note on Electronic Cigarettes, May 2008, accessible at
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_determinants/life_style/Tobacco/Documents/orientation_0508_en.pdf

PSI – the pharmacy regulator
June 2011

mewso · 04-08-2011 12:35pm

I wonder are pharmacies in their duty to advise people on cessation are supposed to inform people of the 5% success rate of NRT products?

tommy2bad · 04-08-2011 2:28pm

The PSI has recently received a number of inquiries regarding the appropriateness of electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) being offered for sale or supply in retail pharmacy businesses, as these products are not currently regulated under either the medicinal products or medical devices legislation.

So It was the pharma reps then.

It has also been noted that these kinds of products have the potential of undermining smoking cessation policies, since they keep the smoking addiction

This is the interisting bit. So it's policy to eliminate not just smoking but anything that resembles or reminds people of smoking. Fashion police anyone?

tkavan · 04-08-2011 2:44pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

So It was the pharma reps then.

This is the interisting bit. So it's policy to eliminate not just smoking but anything that resembles or reminds people of smoking. Fashion police anyone?

Nanny state syndrome I guess !

thegreek · 10-08-2011 10:52am

tommy2bad wrote: »

So It was the pharma reps then.

Yep. They can dress it up any way they want but pharmaceuticals are big business. Remember Nicorette is owned by GlaxoSmithKline. So a pharmacy is dependant on them for an awful lot of their products. So Glaxo have huge leverage.

They can invest huge sums of money to kill any potential opposition. So it isn't hard for them to fund double speaking research. So keep your eyes on this because when you see research results always ask who paid for the research.

What is interesting is how this was reported in the press vs. the statement for the PSI. Harmful by-products where almost stated as fact in the press whereas the PSI merely state they don't know. Typical press going for the headline.

The other thing I noticed was that I only saw e-cigs in one pharmacy chain. And that chain is actually owned now by NAMA - so they were in trouble and willing to chance their arm against the PSI official line.

nesf · 11-08-2011 11:36am

I'm amused, it's not ok to sell e-cigarettes because they're of "dubious medical benefit" but it's perfectly ok for a pharmacy to have a homeopathy display in store...

Stealthirl · 13-08-2011 1:33am

yup take e-cigs off the shelf cause

the actualy help keep people off cigs
while we cant say how safe or unsafe they are the haveto be better then smokeing

how meny vapers have stoped smokeing or cut right bk since they started ?

i tryed everything from cold turkey to the nic inhalers and so far only my ego-t and a girlfriend 11 year ago got me off them [but when we broke up i was right bk on them]

Opit · 26-08-2011 4:46pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/aug/18/tobacco-policy-fda

davidw2 · 27-08-2011 1:31pm

Another example of sloppy journalism ! On the Friday before the June Bank holiday weekend thr Pharmacy regualtor issued guidelines that it was inappropriate for Pharmacies to stock electronic cigarettes not that they were unsafe etc....

I suppose its easier to write a catchy and inaccurate headline than read the directive !!

e-cigs taken off the shelves in Ireland

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