Male as the assumed default.

Mallei · 15-07-2011 09:44AM

krudler wrote: »

sooo, a series written by a woman, with a female lead, primarily read by women and a massive worldwide success...is bad?

christ on a bike, "damned if you do and damned if you don't" springs to mind.

so you want strong female leads, who arent flawed therefore are unrealistic, but not token women who don't haven anything interesting to do but should have them to offset the balance of male characters?

What? I'm talking about the marketing. Twilight is regarded by men and by the publishers as books for girls. How many men have you seen on the Luas reading Twilight? How many women?

You're doing what you're always doing, krudler, which is getting worked up into a ball of fury and whataboutery at the poor victimised man.

pickarooney wrote:

Fair enough. I don't read comics so I don't really know what characters you're talking about.

How about the Millenium series? I haven't read any of them, but I noticed the titles were all changed in English to include the words The Girl Who...

Why do you think they did that? (not a rhetorical question)

I believe that research has shown that the vast majority of crime and detective fiction novel readers are women, balanced by the majority of thriller readers being men (which is why it's so amusing to see the two genres constantly put together), so it is my guess that the made it clear that a woman was a main character so as to attract more women to buy it as they are the main target audience of crime fiction. Even then, of course, it's narrated by a man.

krudler · 15-07-2011 09:44AM

Mallei wrote: »

No, women should be written as normal human beings, like the men. But it gets very irritating to see the women painted as flawed or broken whilst the men run around being the heroes of the story. And just because the Ginny point proves you wrong it doesn't suddenly make it moot.

Hermione is a hero of the story, she saves both Ron and Harry's lives several times throughout the series and vice versa. and both Ron and Harry are written as flawed as well so really what point are you trying to make here? or have you even read any of the Harry Potter books?

krudler · 15-07-2011 09:50AM

Mallei wrote: »

What? I'm talking about the marketing. Twilight is regarded by men and by the publishers as books for girls. How many men have you seen on the Luas reading Twilight? How many women?

You're doing what you're always doing, krudler, which is getting worked up into a ball of fury and whataboutery at the poor victimised man.

now you're just being ridiculous, who's talking about victimised men at all? you're coming up with bullsh1t generalisation statements and using examples that can easily be counter argued and dont like it when you're flawed logic is pointed out. The gender of a lead character has no bearing at all on me enjoying something, I've already pointed out some of my favourite movies have female leads, as well as a lot of books I've read.

pickarooney · 15-07-2011 09:58AM

Mallei wrote: »

I believe that research has shown that the vast majority of crime and detective fiction novel readers are women, balanced by the majority of thriller readers being men (which is why it's so amusing to see the two genres constantly put together), so it is my guess that the made it clear that a woman was a main character so as to attract more women to buy it as they are the main target audience of crime fiction. Even then, of course, it's narrated by a man.

I believe you might be making things up. How are crime/detective novels distinguishable from thrillers and where is this idea coming from that there is a noticeable male/female split between the genres? I'd be quietly confident that both genres have a majority female audience.

Logical Fallacy · 15-07-2011 10:11AM

Mallei wrote: »

Someone used the example of anime, and this is the most amusing of all. The female characters in Japanese fiction are almost always tomboys or insane, and often both. They are also always hugely-chested and often skimpily-dressed - there can be no doubt they are there for the benefit of the predominantly male audience to stare at and jerk off to, not to make them reconsider their stance on women or to attract a female audience.

No offence, but i think your exposure to anime is remarkably limited. I kind of reckon you think anime films are all about monsters and magic and robots and such. I'd advise you watch films like 5mm Per Second, Voices of a Distant Star, Tekkonkinkreet and all the Studio Ghibli movies for a better idea as to what anime is.

What about the Major from the Ghost in the Shell series.
Nausica from The Valley of the Wind.
The main character from Laputa is female, no sexified.
The two main charactes from Totoro are female, quite young, non sexified.
In Grave of the Fireflies one of the main characters is female, under 12.
Princess Mononoke is a quite complex story with 3 very important leads, 2 of them female.
Vexille, main character is female.
The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, main character is female.
Windaria, 3 very important main characters, 2 of which are female.
Kiki's Delivery Service, main character is female.
The Return of the Cat, main character is female.
Sky Blue, 2 very important main characters, 1 of which is female.

And that is just off the top of my head. None of the above are prone to running around in skimpy outfits either (except for the major in one scene but hey, when you have chameleon like skin and gotta kill someone it pays to not be seen i guess).

I'm also amazed so many people feel men are portrayed as all acheiving superdudes who are completely flawless. I'm finding it difficult to think of a main character who wasn't flawed to **** and would have been completely unable to actually achieve his goal if not for the people around him.

15-07-2011 10:37AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

What about the Major from the Ghost in the Shell series.

Completely forgot about this.
Perfect example! She rocks.

Logical Fallacy · 15-07-2011 10:46AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Completely forgot about this.
Perfect example! She rocks.

Exactly, she's a bad ass, the hinge of the story, the most important character (and the most impressive), she sacrifices herself in extremely heroic fashion, she has no real baggage or is not trying to impress a man and the vast majority of the existential subtext comes through her.

Perfect main character.

iguana · 15-07-2011 10:58AM

Sharrow wrote: »

Gail Simone answered that.

I've read that but it's still crap. As she said, it's just a 'feeling' she has, it's not based on the reality of the stories. Take the charter members of the X-Men. There is no denying Jean has had a tough run what the constant dying, but as the host of the phoenix force she is constantly resurrected, it's part of her power. And she's the most powerful being in the universe, which is quite the bonus. But the men have had an awful time of it too.

Charles lost the use of his legs in a pretty stupid accident (and his power makes him bald, which can be very upsetting for men). He is in love with the most powerful (in political terms) person in the galaxy (a woman) and as such never gets to be with her, especially as their positions often conflict.

Bobby is generally the weakest member because he has never developed the ability to tap into his potential. This was shown to him when he was mentally raped by Emma, who took his body and used it to it's full potential. He is a very unhappy person deep down.

Hank's mutation is uncontrollable and is not only changing him physically into a giant furry blue cat person but is distorting his humanity and taking everything he loves from him. Including making him reprehensible to the woman he loves. And when an enemy strips away what's left of his human consciousness he eats his team-mate's leg. Later on he is kidnapped and tortured while used a lab rat.

Warren has had a particularly awful life. He has lived his life never getting past his unrequited love of Jean. His uncle murdered his parents in order to steal their fortune, then tried to kill him. He is kidnapped and nearly mutilated and raped by Callisto and is only saved by Storm (a woman). His wings are mutilated in a violent yet pointlessly humiliating attack. And then his best friend who is secretly stealing from him and destroying his company and reputation has his wings amputated while he is unconscious. this leaves him in a deep depression, considering suicide, though his best friend attempts to murder him first. He is "saved" by Apocalypse and genetically modified into the horseman Death. Under mental control he attacks and hurts his friends. For years afterward he was completely changed, depressed, filled with bloodlust, hating himself. And although he eventually appeared to recover completely, it later turned out that he hadn't and the changes in him hang over him irrevocably.

Not that any of that compares to the most abused man in the universe; Scott. A happy normal child, he was in a light aircraft with his parents and little brother when it took fire and his parents strapped their one remaining parachute to him and his brother and pushed them out of the plane. The parachute caught fire and Scott fell on his head, causing brain damage. This damage means that he can not control his power, which comes from his eyes and leaves him effectively blind, unless he is wearing a quartz crystal eye shield. He was sent to an orphanage, which was actually run by a crazy geneticist who believes his dna was unique and spent the rest of his childhood being experimented on, traumatising him and leaving him as a deeply damaged individual incapable of trust or happiness.

His first wife turns out to have been a woman created to manipulate him into procreating by the man who ran his orphanage and his son is infected with a disease which means he has to be given up to advanced humans who can keep him healthy. Years later in order to save an alternate version of his son he merges with Apocalypse and 'dies.' Jean and his adult son find him and separates him from Apocalypse, killing Apocalypse in the process. Scott however is left mentally traumatised and filled with more self-loathing than ever. Too ashamed to let Jean, his current wife, see what is going on in his head, he embarks on a mental 'affair' with Emma. Jean finds out and soon after dies. Scott wants nothing more to do with Emma, but Jean (being a phoenix force so not really dead) finds out that in the future Scott is so miserable alone that he fails to defend the world. So she mentally manipulates him into beginning a relationship with a Emma. basically ensuring that for the next several years he is unwittingly raped repeatedly by a woman he truly doesn't want to be with.

Gail Simone is full of crap and only seeing what she wants to see to suit her agenda. An agenda which has made her very successful.

ztoical · 15-07-2011 11:36AM

iguana wrote: »

Gail Simone is full of crap and only seeing what she wants to see to suit her agenda. An agenda which has made her very successful.

I wouldn't call her full of crap....while there is plenty of room for discussion as to her views saying it's all crap just isn't true - there are plenty of other comic book people who have echoed and added to her views such as Lea Hernandez and her fantastic hurt comics rants regarding the issue #13 Heroes for Hire comic and the fantastic Mary Jane doing the washing statue - which along with the Spiderman needs a divorce comments truely showed Joe Q's view on both female characters and female readers. In recent years we've very very slowly started to see a turn in the direct market comics scene but it's down mainly to falling sales, poor management after the 90's crash and shrinking markets but in general the direct market is piss poor for the way it treats female characters. French comics have a much better track record for creating good solid female characters both in main and secondary roles while I'm sorry to say I've a very poor view of the treatment of women in Japanese comics and animation given the piss poor view of women in Japan in general. They are way down in 100 and something odd place on the world gender equility scale and praising a handful of characters out of a simply massive industry doesn't cut it in my book and even those characters I wouldn't call very strong as they are mainly the same as the male characters just with added tits. A country that produces such a high amount of rape comics and tentical porn that is not just print and sold but printed and sold in open view in corner shops at kid eye level shouldn't be held up as an example of anything positive for women.

krudler · 15-07-2011 11:57AM

Was having a think about it there and some tv shows I watch that all have strong female characters.

Battlestar Galactica: Roslin is the president of the colonies, female. Kaine is an admiral, actually the highest ranking person in the military portrayed in the show, female. Then you have main characters like Sharon, Starbuck, Caprica 6, the other female cylons and a bunch of other lead characters, all female, all flawed. Although complaining about flawed characters in BSG is pointless, every character in it acts like a complete douchebag at one point or another :pac:

The Sopranos: Its a very mysoginistic show in places, yet the most influencing characters in Tony's life are Carmella, his mother and Dr Melfi, all female. The show deals with matriarchal influence a lot throughout the seasons, its basically the central theme of the show, men and their mothers.

The Wire: female cops, a DA, a judge, various lawyers, also gangsters (Snoop) politicians, teachers, a headmaster. tons of female characters all with their own story arcs. Also one of if not the best tv shows ever.

Arrested Development: Lindsay, Lucille (1 and 2 for those AD fans who will get the joke :pac: ) Maebe, and some of the minor roles and cameos all have fantastic comedy scenes as well as being main characters.

Heres a question, they're remaking/doing a prequel to The Thing, John Carpenters 80's horror masterpiece, the original had no female characters at all, the new one has a lead character who is female but it seems like they just lobbed her in there for the sake of it, good thing or bad thing?

15-07-2011 12:00PM

krudler wrote: »

Heres a question, they're remaking/doing a prequel to The Thing, John Carpenters 80's horror masterpiece, the original had no female characters at all, the new one has a lead character who is female but it seems like they just lobbed her in there for the sake of it, good thing or bad thing?

Original BSG had no female leads either, so it could turn out well

krudler · 15-07-2011 12:06PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Original BSG had no female leads either, so it could turn out well

Horror movies in general either seem to have women who are the big titted scream queen variety of chainsaw/razor glove/machete/knife fodder, there are a lot of lead female characters in slash movies though, Sidney in Scream, Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween, Heather Lagenkamp in A Nightmare On Elm St to name but a few.
I guess its easier to show a female lead in peril than a guy, although usually the guy who attempts to take on the villain gets maimed, killed, dragged into a bed and exploded in a shower of blood, chainsawed in the face etc. Would audiences care less about a male character being chased in a slasher movie?

LeeHoffmann · 15-07-2011 12:14PM

Would audiences care less about a male character being chased in a slasher movie?

Judging only by my reaction to reading this:

maimed, killed, dragged into a bed and exploded in a shower of blood, chainsawed in the face

no I think horror is horror. (My face twisted into ugly expressions of disgust and dismay while reading the above). I don't think I'd be any less horrified at watching a man be 'chainsawed in the face' :eek::( than I would be at it happening to a woman

PS - not a horror-fan

Logical Fallacy · 15-07-2011 12:18PM

ztoical wrote: »

I wouldn't call her full of crap....while there is plenty of room for discussion as to her views saying it's all crap just isn't true - there are plenty of other comic book people who have echoed and added to her views such as Lea Hernandez and her fantastic hurt comics rants regarding the issue #13 Heroes for Hire comic and the fantastic Mary Jane doing the washing statue - which along with the Spiderman needs a divorce comments truely showed Joe Q's view on both female characters and female readers. In recent years we've very very slowly started to see a turn in the direct market comics scene but it's down mainly to falling sales, poor management after the 90's crash and shrinking markets but in general the direct market is piss poor for the way it treats female characters. French comics have a much better track record for creating good solid female characters both in main and secondary roles while I'm sorry to say I've a very poor view of the treatment of women in Japanese comics and animation given the piss poor view of women in Japan in general. They are way down in 100 and something odd place on the world gender equility scale and praising a handful of characters out of a simply massive industry doesn't cut it in my book and even those characters I wouldn't call very strong as they are mainly the same as the male characters just with added tits. A country that produces such a high amount of rape comics and tentical porn that is not just print and sold but printed and sold in open view in corner shops at kid eye level shouldn't be held up as an example of anything positive for women.

Seriously, check out any of the examples given. I was reply to broad sweeping statement that was made about anime, by given more than enough examples to refute it.

It's hard to take your argument seriously i have to say...it's kind of like saying we should ignore Ann Rand because of Danielle Steele and we should ignore all positive female characters in movies because of porn.

People are offering plenty of reason as to why assorted entertainment media are showing well developed, well written female characters and why all the assumptions about the male characters being strong and the female characters being weak are not 100% accurate.

The dismissals seem to be "yeah well, there is not enough of them, and the ones you have shown us don't count".

With regards to characters being "the same as male characters just with added tits"...pick any of the films i have listed above and see if that opinion remains intact by the end of the movie.

iguana · 15-07-2011 12:34PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Original BSG had no female leads either, so it could turn out well

There were 3 female leads in the original series, or really 1 plus 2 halves. Maren Jensen as Athena and Laurette Sprang as Cassiopeia were lead characters and are seen in the opening credits. Athena's role in the original series was meant to be much bigger, she was introduced and a bridge officer with a history as a fighter pilot. But Jensen was not a good enough actor to carry the role that was intended for her and her part was written smaller and smaller, with Jensen leaving the show before the end. Halfway through the series they brought in Anne Lockhart as fighter pilot Lt Sheba Cain to take over the role intended for Athena and she remained an important character up until the end.

ztoical wrote:

wouldn't call her full of crap....while there is plenty of room for discussion as to her views saying it's all crap just isn't true - there are plenty of other comic book people who have echoed and added to her views such as Lea Hernandez and her fantastic hurt comics rants regarding the issue #13 Heroes for Hire comic and the fantastic Mary Jane doing the washing statue - which along with the Spiderman needs a divorce comments truely showed Joe Q's view on both female characters and female readers.

But much of what she says is crap, it's either wilfully misinformed or out and out lies. She chooses isolated events in order to present an agenda and when it's pointed out to her that she is picking and choosing, ignoring the multitude of story lines which show the falsehood of her point she dismisses it without looking at it properly. I don't know about all sub genres of comics, but I know that in any book I read all of the characters are deeply flawed and go through hell on a regular basis and none of them recover instantly, instead experiencing repercussions for decades, not just the women. I'm not a child, I have no interest in reading about super-superheroes who have great powers that come without great personal consequence.

Simone even lists Sue Storm miscarrying her second pregnancy as part of her proof about mistreated female characters fgs. A woman having a miscarriage! Miscarriages are so common a minimum of one third of all women in the real world have at least one. Miscarriages in active duty combat soldiers would be through the roof if armies deployed pregnant soldiers. Her point is actually backwards. Almost all superheroes who continue in regular battle while pregnant should miscarry. The fact that so many of them have gone on to have healthy newborns is giving them a leeway that real life women who work desk jobs don't get.

I find Simone's stance on this issue as one that's insulting to both men and women. There are so many great points to make about the bad deal female characters get in all genres of fiction. And some of what she says may be valid in certain books and sub genres, but she goes out of her way to look for "mistreatment" of female characters and completely ignores the fact that many of the men go through it too.

krudler · 15-07-2011 12:34PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

People are offering plenty of reason as to why assorted entertainment media are showing well developed, well written female characters and why all the assumptions about the male characters being strong and the female characters being weak are not 100% accurate.

The dismissals seem to be "yeah well, there is not enough of them, and the ones you have shown us don't count".
.

Ha thats exactly it.

"there arent enough women in this genre of book/movie!"
"heres several well known examples"
"....err, aside from them!"

ztoical · 15-07-2011 12:41PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Seriously, check out any of the examples given. I was reply to broad sweeping statement that was made about anime, by given more than enough examples to refute it.

It's hard to take your argument seriously i have to say...it's kind of like saying we should ignore Ann Rand because of Danielle Steele and we should ignore all positive female characters in movies because of porn.

People are offering plenty of reason as to why assorted entertainment media are showing well developed, well written female characters and why all the assumptions about the male characters being strong and the female characters being weak are not 100% accurate.

The dismissals seem to be "yeah well, there is not enough of them, and the ones you have shown us don't count".

With regards to characters being "the same as male characters just with added tits"...pick any of the films i have listed above and see if that opinion remains intact by the end of the movie.

A handful of films that have made a small dent in western cinema then go and look at the sheer volume of work produced in Japan and see how female characters are treated. The Major from the Ghost in the Shell is a strong female character? How extactly? What does she do that makes her both strong and female other then beating people up and having tits...that for me is not a strong female character. There is nothing in her actions that make her gender a major factor in her over all character development. She kicks ass? Big whoop, most of the characters in the film and the follow up films and series kick ass...o but she kicks ass the best, great show me how her being female makes any bit of difference with that other then making her a good pin up. To contrast with an actual strong female character take Ripley in Aliens...a strong female character that kicks ass but in this case her being female plays a direct role in her character being strong. She fights at first just to live but as her relationship with newt develops and she uses her to replace the daughter she has lost she fights from a maternal instinct to protect her young. To me that is a character that wouldn't work if it was male while in the majority of examples given of strong female characters the motivation for this strenght of character isn't something directly related to gender and they could easliy be replaced with a male character.

15-07-2011 12:53PM

iguana wrote: »

There were 3 female leads in the original series, or really 1 plus 2 halves. Maren Jensen as Athena and Laurette Sprang as Cassiopeia were lead characters and are seen in the opening credits. Athena's role in the original series was meant to be much bigger, she was introduced and a bridge officer with a history as a fighter pilot. But Jensen was not a good enough actor to carry the role that was intended for her and her part was written smaller and smaller, with Jensen leaving the show before the end. Halfway through the series they brought in Anne Lockhart as fighter pilot Lt Sheba Cain to take over the role intended for Athena and she remained an important character up until the end.

You are a walking encyclopedia

I didn't know that about those ones - I had looked up starbuck and boomer etc and found out they were all male!

Logical Fallacy · 15-07-2011 12:56PM

ztoical wrote: »

A handful of films that have made a small dent in western cinema then go and look at the sheer volume of work produced in Japan and see how female characters are treated. The Major from the Ghost in the Shell is a strong female character? How extactly? What does she do that makes her both strong and female other then beating people up and having tits...that for me is not a strong female character. There is nothing in her actions that make her gender a major factor in her over all character development. She kicks ass? Big whoop, most of the characters in the film and the follow up films and series kick ass...o but she kicks ass the best, great show me how her being female makes any bit of difference with that other then making her a good pin up. To contrast with an actual strong female character take Ripley in Aliens...a strong female character that kicks ass but in this case her being female plays a direct role in her character being strong. She fights at first just to live but as her relationship with newt develops and she uses her to replace the daughter she has lost she fights from a maternal instinct to protect her young. To me that is a character that wouldn't work if it was male while in the majority of examples given of strong female characters the motivation for this strenght of character isn't something directly related to gender and they could easliy be replaced with a male character.

You are kind of missing the point of Ghost in the Shell, throughout the film, and the Manga, the Major makes important references to the fact that she no longer feels human due to her cybernetic nature...she finds it almost impossible to connect anymore on a human level, let alone find a firm grasp on her concept of her own femininity.

In the end, she finds her connection to femininity by both, effectively, adopting the Puppet Master as her child (a new formed mind with a newly adopted physical being - sounds kind of like a baby to me) and even manages to effectively rebirth herself in the body of a child, given her another shot at being perceived as a young girl and maybe once again getting in touch with what she had lost...and both actions taken at great risk to her perceived sense of self and her life.

If anything, i'll take the slightly cryptic and tougher to read struggle that the Major had with her own femininity that the obvious and tailor made solution that Ripley found.

The Major never would have worked as a male character, the entire subtext of the piece would need to be rethought, as it's the subtleties that her femininity is explored.

Your issue now seems to be that the decent female characters out there are not female enough...and you are right...as most of the time the writers were so stupid that they treated the characters as human, instead of distinctly female and sought to explore universal themes instead of pigeon holing the story into silly genres like "action", "romace" or "noir".

Shame on them.:D

There are countless ingredients that make up the human body and mind, like all the components that make up me as an individual with my own personality. Sure I have a face and voice to distinguish myself from others, but my thoughts and memories are unique only to me, and I carry a sense of my own destiny. Each of those things are just a small part of it. I collect information to use in my own way. All of that blends to create a mixture that forms me and gives rise to my conscience. I feel confined, only free to expand myself within boundaries.

krudler · 15-07-2011 01:15PM

ztoical wrote: »

A handful of films that have made a small dent in western cinema then go and look at the sheer volume of work produced in Japan and see how female characters are treated. The Major from the Ghost in the Shell is a strong female character? How extactly? What does she do that makes her both strong and female other then beating people up and having tits...that for me is not a strong female character. There is nothing in her actions that make her gender a major factor in her over all character development. She kicks ass? Big whoop, most of the characters in the film and the follow up films and series kick ass...o but she kicks ass the best, great show me how her being female makes any bit of difference with that other then making her a good pin up. To contrast with an actual strong female character take Ripley in Aliens...a strong female character that kicks ass but in this case her being female plays a direct role in her character being strong. She fights at first just to live but as her relationship with newt develops and she uses her to replace the daughter she has lost she fights from a maternal instinct to protect her young. To me that is a character that wouldn't work if it was male while in the majority of examples given of strong female characters the motivation for this strenght of character isn't something directly related to gender and they could easliy be replaced with a male character.

Ripley wasnt originally written as a female character in the original Alien interestingly enough, its only in Aliens that she doesnt fall into the "male character with tits" you've mentioned.

Logical Fallacy · 15-07-2011 01:30PM

krudler wrote: »

Ripley wasnt originally written as a female character in the original Alien interestingly enough, its only in Aliens that she doesnt fall into the "male character with tits" you've mentioned.

Also, how would there have been any difference in the acceptability of the character if he had been a bloke who lost a son, and rescured a boy?

Paternal instinct is just as strong a literary device as maternal. If anything, have Ripley delve into her maternal instinct was doing nothing more than characterising her as someone who would have died is she didn't have a child to live for.

krudler · 15-07-2011 01:39PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Also, how would there have been any difference in the acceptability of the character if he had been a bloke who lost a son, and rescured a boy?

Paternal instinct is just as strong a literary device as maternal. If anything, have Ripley delve into her maternal instinct was doing nothing more than characterising her as someone who would have died is she didn't have a child to live for.

True, there are plenty of movies where a guy is out to rescue his son or daughter, Tom Cruise in War of the Worlds, Liam Neeson in Taken, hell even Arnie in Commando as a ludcrious example.

Ripley having nothing left to live for is brought to a head in Alien 3, where she does want to die, and does (I'm not spoilering that :pac: ) as with Newt gone from the opening of the movie she does feel she has nothing left.

take another strong female character, Clarice from Silence Of The Lambs, there's no real reason that she has to be a she aside from Hannibal being infatuated with her, which is delved into more in Hannibal than it is in SOTL,although you could argue she empathises more with the murder victims as they're all female. Hell the villains main purpose is to change his gender through a grisly method so the whole concept of gender is flipped around throughout that movie. In the first book Red Dragon (filmed as Manhunter, then Red Dragon again in the Edward Norton version) its a male protagonist Hannibal aids not female and its just as good a thriller though not as revered.

iguana · 15-07-2011 02:50PM

krudler wrote: »

In the first book Red Dragon (filmed as Manhunter, then Red Dragon again in the Edward Norton version) its a male protagonist Hannibal aids not female and its just as good a thriller though not as revered.

OT but, Red Dragon is not a great movie, Manhunter is absolutely fantastic once you get past the very dated 80s feel. Peterson is a better Will and Cox is a far superior Hannibal, much more subtle.

pickarooney · 15-07-2011 03:11PM

ztoical wrote: »

in the majority of examples given of strong female characters the motivation for this strenght of character isn't something directly related to gender and they could easliy be replaced with a male character.

Could you not just as easily say then that any film with a male protagonist is just a 'woman without tits'?

Jack B. Badd · 15-07-2011 06:46PM

ztoical wrote: »

There is nothing in her actions that make her gender a major factor in her over all character development.

In all fairness, how many people in real life have gender as a major factor in their character? Most people (imo) are people first and representatives of their gender second. You cite maternal instinct as an indication of Ripley's status as a female character. Are we expected to limit female characters to those who express or are affected by female-only topics - motherhood, miscarriage, menstruation, menopause, etc? Christ, that's a lot of "M"s

I'm pretty sure that the majority of women rail against being viewed as the sum of their reproductive organs in the real world so I don't see why this criteria should be applied to determine how "female" a character is in media or entertainment. This does kind of return to the "male as default" theme - characters (regardless of their actual gender) viewed as male until they go above and beyond to prove that they are in fact female and only then can be accepted on their own merit as strong (or otherwise) female characters.

Catari Jaguar · 16-07-2011 12:10AM

Any Hayao Miyazaki fans out there? His protagonists are female by and large with a whole range of traits such as strength, compassion, bravery, loyalty, love, friendship, immaturity, playfulness, innocence, hard work, selfishness, sacrificing, kindness, wisdom, pig headedness, heroism, victimisation, love for art/ music/ nature. Pretty gender neutral, more to do with who you... are.

I would recommend them to everyone, and especially to anyone with a daughter that has only had experience with the Disney Princesses. Just to balance it out.

Princess Mononoke

Ponyo

Spirited Away

Laputa

Howl's Moving Castle

Kiki's Delivery Service

Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind

My Neighbour Totoro

Logical Fallacy · 16-07-2011 11:31AM

cherub rock wrote: »

Any Hayao Miyazaki fans out there?

He has a new one coming out later this year along the lines of The Borrowers apparently.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 16-07-2011 03:06PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

He has a new one coming out later this year along the lines of The Borrowers apparently.

it was out last year...

Logical Fallacy · 16-07-2011 05:44PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it was out last year...

No way? Christ i am out of touch.

Catari Jaguar · 17-07-2011 07:36PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it was out last year...

Well it's European/ US? release is coming up.

However, ultra new film From Up On Poppy Hill was released in Japan on July 16th

Male as the assumed default.

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