leinster academy

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 09:38PM

Leinster have a huge advantage with regards to the conveyor belt of talent that the Leinster schools give them. I found recently that Leinster have not only a schools U18 and U19 team, but also an U16 and U17 team. The U17's won a tournament in Perpignon in May. The players are being spotted from a very early age and being groomed for the academy from as early as U15 level. Their only problem will be keeping players happy as they come thru-for example Jordan Coughlan is a superb no 8 but then you have Harrison Brewer coming thru in 2 years time. Some people say its too early to talk about players that young but thats exactly what Leinster are doing - making sure the players with the raw talent are being given the best chance of making it to the academy.

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 09:50PM

Leinster put a huge amount of work into their teams from an early age, was at the tournament in perpignan that Leinster u17 won , Leinster were very impressive even though the opposition were quiet poor.

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 09:53PM

rugby_fan wrote: »

Leinster put a huge amount of work into their teams from an early age, was at the tournament in perpignan that Leinster u17 won , Leinster were very impressive even though the opposition were quiet poor.

Was there really 9 players from terenure on that team?

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 10:01PM

Yeah there was 8 or 9 from Terenure on d squad

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 10:12PM

rugby_fan wrote: »

Yeah there was 8 or 9 from Terenure on d squad

Good stuff. About time Terenure won another senior cup

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 10:22PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Good stuff. About time Terenure won another senior cup

Been a while alrii..although Rock or Clongowes hadn't anyone in d squad so hard to judge..

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 10:29PM

rugby_fan wrote: »

Been a while alrii..although Rock or Clongowes hadn't anyone in d squad so hard to judge..

I am almost sure I saw one or both of the Byrne brothers in the squad photo?

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 10:32PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

I am almost sure I saw one or both of the Byrne brothers in the squad photo?

No they werent on it, they were overage seemingly.

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 10:36PM

rugby_fan wrote: »

No they werent on it, they were overage seemingly.

OK well those players were only U17 so mostly only 4th years-but it just underlines Leinsters system for grooming players thru. Did any players stand out?

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 10:42PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

OK well those players were only U17 so mostly only 4th years-but it just underlines Leinsters system for grooming players thru. Did any players stand out?

Yeah they were all either 4th or 5th years, there was a lot of good players for Leinster, but it was quiet hard to judge because the standard of the opposition was very poor

roycon · 09-07-2011 10:46PM

for u16 and u17 some of the schools wont release their player because they feel its a bit young though so the balance of player is often lopsided. it evens out in the end though

Quint2010 · 09-07-2011 10:53PM

roycon wrote: »

for u16 and u17 some of the schools wont release their player because they feel its a bit young though so the balance of player is often lopsided. it evens out in the end though

Well i think there was 3 players representing Terenure who had moved from Clongowes and Newbridge at the start of the year

rugby_fan · 09-07-2011 10:58PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Well i think there was 3 players representing Terenure who had moved from Clongowes and Newbridge at the start of the year

Defiently one player that moved from Newbridge to Terenure anyway..

profitius · 09-07-2011 11:50PM

Well, Sherwin is gone from Munster so maybe the new man can make a difference when he comes.

The downside for Leinster (and upside for other provinces) is theres only so many positions to fill so some players will be leaving. Its not a bad problem to have though.

ormond lad · 10-07-2011 10:38AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Leinster have a huge advantage with regards to the conveyor belt of talent that the Leinster schools give them. I found recently that Leinster have not only a schools U18 and U19 team, but also an U16 and U17 team. The U17's won a tournament in Perpignon in May. The players are being spotted from a very early age and being groomed for the academy from as early as U15 level. Their only problem will be keeping players happy as they come thru-for example Jordan Coughlan is a superb no 8 but then you have Harrison Brewer coming thru in 2 years time. Some people say its too early to talk about players that young but thats exactly what Leinster are doing - making sure the players with the raw talent are being given the best chance of making it to the academy.

Munster doesnt have a provincial u16/17 team(they have regional youths teams at these ages) anymore but they do have the players in sessions with academy and sub academy coaches from u15 level like in leinster. Its much easier for leinster to get players through due to the much larger base of players in leinster compared to munster.
Munsters systems of developing players has been very poor in recent years but times are changing and septembers munster schools team will be better than previous years.(though the youths are better than them)
If you want your pro team to do well and have a regular flow of young talent coming through you have to be looking at players from 15 on as no matter how good a player is they need plenty of work to get up to pro standard and the sooner they get that work the better.
I know he had pedigree in his father etc and he is exceptional but look at george ford. Because he was involved with a pro academy from an early age who were involved in his development more than his school he was capable of playing pro at 16. While i am not suggesting we play 16 year olds in pro 12 games etc We have to look at developing players so that they are physically capable of regularly playing pro12 games at 18. In the current system unless you are a BOD you will play 1 maybe 2 games at 18.
Going by the stats on leinster rugby andrew conway has nearly played as many games for ireland u20s as he has for leinster and leinster A combined

10-07-2011 11:07AM

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.

Asking players to bulk towards a "professional physique" before they've finished growing is borderline insanity.

We don't need 18 year olds capable of playing professional rugby, we need 18 year olds who will eventually be able to play professional rugby.

There's a massive difference.

ormond lad · 10-07-2011 11:22AM

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Asking players to bulk towards a "professional physique" before they've finished growing is borderline insanity.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We don't need 18 year olds capable of playing professional rugby, we need 18 year olds who will eventually be able to play professional rugby.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There's a massive difference.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lads at 16/17 playing for development teams are doing weights etc and are bulking towards a "professional physique" any way. Ive seen that through my brother and lads who have been on munster squads with him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is plenty of co[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ntroversy regarding weight training and young athletes.Probably the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]most common myth is that it will stunt growth. I cant find any research that supports that theory. In fact, the only significant finding that i could find [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]was that one must follow an appropriate diet if engaged in heavy physical activity, with the emphasis on caloric intake and adequate protein. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the 2008 Olympics, it became very apparent that most elite athletes began their training at a very young age. It was also evident almost all utilized some form of strength training to enhance performance.
[/FONT]

thebaz · 10-07-2011 11:28AM

was Coughlan not supposed to be coming a pro cricketer ? or am i thinking of someone else ?

10-07-2011 11:32AM

ormond lad wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lads at 16/17 playing for development teams are doing weights etc and are bulking towards a "professional physique" any way. Ive seen that through my brother and lads who have been on munster squads with him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is plenty of co[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ntroversy regarding weight training and young athletes.Probably the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]most common myth is that it will stunt growth. I cant find any research that supports that theory. In fact, the only significant finding that i could find [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]was that one must follow an appropriate diet if engaged in heavy physical activity, with the emphasis on caloric intake and adequate protein. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the 2008 Olympics, it became very apparent that most elite athletes began their training at a very young age. It was also evident almost all utilized some form of strength training to enhance performance.
[/FONT]

I am not talking about stunting growth, I'm talking about longevity of careers.

We do not need 18 year olds playing professional rugby.

Having a brother in the Leinster setup for the last 2 years I know how the development works, that weight training etc is essential and won't harm growth. That is not an issue, what is an issue is having kids playing rugby before they are mature in their own bodys and minds. Here's a post I made a month ago on the issue..

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed, we don't develop near as quickly as many other countries, but we don't really want to either tbh.

Guys peaking at 18stone aged 19 are going to have a huge trade off with longevity of career imo.

The difference between the Irish U19 squad and the U20 squad is insane. Consider 2/3 more years of conditioning and strength training, and most of the guys who are light, skillful and full of beans aged 18, can tone up, bulk up, and retain a lot of the skills and agility that they'd had before.

Whereas an 18 year old already at that weight / size, can struggle with mobility exercises, effectively becoming muscle bound by the exercises that they've pushed through at an early age. These guys will be doing Yoga and Pilates to try to push agility and flexibility back into their games, while others are getting stronger and sharper doing pitch and weight exercises (When they're 22-25).

There's also the problem with injuries, an overly large teen will struggle to recover from any injury far more than his limber Irish counterpart. Also, he will open himself up to new injuries that his Irish counterpart won't be susceptible to as his range of motion is limited by his "oversized" body.

There are costs and benefits to hitting the gym and eating like a horse early, but I think that we have the right idea, considering that there isn't many U7s leagues, there isn't rugby played on streets etc. Rugby is a small but growing sport in this country, and getting the skills through before getting the size up takes longer as a result.

Quint2010 · 10-07-2011 12:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.

Asking players to bulk towards a "professional physique" before they've finished growing is borderline insanity.

We don't need 18 year olds capable of playing professional rugby, we need 18 year olds who will eventually be able to play professional rugby.

There's a massive difference.

Well you musnt have been to a schools rugby match in the last 5 years. Seriously-these guys are huge. 15 and 16 year olds are doing weights sessions 3/4 times a week such is the standard of physique in the various competitions. All the top schools now have state of the art training facilities and these include weights rooms. Andrew Conway had only just turned 19 when he made his ML debut for Leinster. Maybe it isnt right but it is happening. The physicality of the schools cup is only a small step below ML

10-07-2011 12:08PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Well you musnt have been to a schools rugby match in the last 5 years. Seriously-these guys are huge. 15 and 16 year olds are doing weights sessions 3/4 times a week such is the standard of physique in the various competitions. All the top schools now have state of the art training facilities and these include weights rooms. Andrew Conway had only just turned 19 when he made his ML debut for Leinster. Maybe it isnt right but it is happening. The physicality of the schools cup is only a small step below ML

No its not, as seen by the gigantic leap it is for any schools player to play competitively in their first season.

Guys like Ruddock and Ryan who are physically mature are the exception, not the rule.

LightningBolt · 10-07-2011 01:04PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

The physicality of the schools cup is only a small step below ML

Way off. You couldn't be more wrong. There's perhaps a handful of guys who are capable of playing ML games the following season in international periods but these guys are the exception.

jolley123 · 10-07-2011 01:22PM

thebaz wrote: »

was Coughlan not supposed to be coming a pro cricketer ? or am i thinking of someone else ?

No you're right. I presume that since he's accepted a place in the academy, he's chosen rugby over cricket. It is still up in the air though. He's supposed to be a fantastic cricketer.

10-07-2011 01:24PM

no reason he cant play both. Alan Lewis would tell him all about it!

jolley123 · 10-07-2011 01:37PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Well you musnt have been to a schools rugby match in the last 5 years. Seriously-these guys are huge. 15 and 16 year olds are doing weights sessions 3/4 times a week such is the standard of physique in the various competitions. All the top schools now have state of the art training facilities and these include weights rooms. Andrew Conway had only just turned 19 when he made his ML debut for Leinster. Maybe it isnt right but it is happening. The physicality of the schools cup is only a small step below ML

Just because schools teams spend a lot of time doing weight sessions, does not mean they are ready for the step up to professional rugby. It's not about simply bulking up. It's about conditioning yourself so that your body is able for the physicality of pro rugby. Many young players can concentrate on wrong areas, and over-do their quads for instance. or their shoulders or chest. As a result, they are more prone to injury when they run out on the pitch. If you look at Rhys Ruddock, he has only now reached his optimum weight. And to do so, he had to lose weight. It's about conditioning yourself to get the best out of you. And a lot of the time, young guys focus on areas that are only hindering their progress. In regards to Conway, you could also look at how he injured himself last season. And how when Macken got his first start, he broke his collar-bone. The physical step up is pretty big, and the players bodies need to be conditioned to deal with that.

And of course there's the mental aspect. Learning how to cope with the pressure and responsibilities, balancing rugby with other aspects of your life, dealing with media etc.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 10-07-2011 03:06PM

ormond lad wrote: »

.
Going by the stats on leinster rugby andrew conway has nearly played as many games for ireland u20s as he has for leinster and leinster A combined

12 Leinster caps and 7 leinster A caps compared to 15 Ireland U20 caps but one thing to realise is that he was on a run of three starts in a row in Febuary around the 6Ns but he got injured. If he hadn't gotten injured he could easily have another three or four Leinster caps.

He probably got the injuries cause he was pushed too much while still young

danthefan · 10-07-2011 03:10PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

12 Leinster caps and 7 leinster A caps compared to 15 Ireland U20 caps but one thing to realise is that he was on a run of three starts in a row in Febuary around the 6Ns but he got injured. If he hadn't gotten injured he could easily have another three or four Leinster caps.

He probably got the injuries cause he was pushed too much while still young

That is just complete speculation, rugby players get injured all the time.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 10-07-2011 03:31PM

danthefan wrote: »

That is just complete speculation, rugby players get injured all the time.

True. It is speculation. That said I do feel that the lads who play a run of pro games U20 seem to get injured more.

Its not fact and I don't think there is a study on it but it is my opinion

JustinDee · 10-07-2011 03:32PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

The physicality of the schools cup is only a small step below ML

What???
Sorry but wrong.

roycon · 10-07-2011 05:16PM

in south africa, england, france they have huge player bases. much much bigger than irelands and they tend to have bigger teams at every level from under 15 to senior. they are also more physical and so big physical players are preferred over more skillful players at underage. Ireland cant afford to do this - we dont have the numbers to gamble huge amounts of players - make them do loads of weights and see who survives and finally makes it to international rugby. if we stick to the south african and english system its the people who mature physically the quickest who will be playing for ireland and not the players who are good. the team will suffer because we will always be naturally smaller and we will get hammered. instead leinster have chosen to pick players who are good and bring them in to increase there size while working on their skills more while they can learn easier when they are younger.

collie oshea has been brought into the leinster academy this year despite not getting a look in for ireland in the world cup. he's too small at the moment but you wont find a more rounded player in rugby terms. brilliant passer,tackler runner and kicker. if he had gone to the world cup he would have been mangled by some massive south africans. if the team was picked for 5 years in the future who knows - then maybe collie oshea would be starting instead.(Ireland do seem to have a huge amount of talent in the centre at the moment though)

sometimes there are players who are big and skilful and they flourish at undeerage and senior like gilroy at ulster. this is just the way things work.

At the moment however Leinster seem to have it just right - more skills but not neglecting the importance of weight training. four sessions of weights and conditioning a week for sub academy and academy players. ive seen how small players like john cooney and skinny players like mark flannagan have developed over the last couple of years when they seemed to small initially and now theyve both been given contracts while the colossus that is eamon sheridan is still in the academy. being massive is important but theres more important things such as being good at rugby

leinster academy

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