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The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5
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I don't know why people are making a deal of the developers financial situations and where they will get the funds. That's not really the issue; they either can or cannot and with them having invested so much so far you would expect them to have that area dealt with. I stress expect.
This is an ambitious project absolutely and I have my doubts too.
I see people mentioning the fact that we already have golf courses, racecourses, empty hotels etc. True but we have nothing like this. All these places do nothing to attract people from Ireland, let alone outside it. Comparing a small outlet mall to something like this is ludacris. The developments couldn't any different.
A racecourse like the Curragh is not up to scratch to attract a big money event from the likes of Dubai but this development would.
Why not give it a tax-break? Currently we are receiving zero in revenue from them. Give them an incentive to set-up camp and tax revenue bigger than zero will roll in. Exactly like how our corporate tax works. Without it would we have Google, Ebay, Microsoft, Facebook etc set up here? I doubt it.
As for leagalising gambling in general. Again why not? It's done by thousands in Ireland sitting in their computer chairs. Why not legalise it, regulate it and have a revenue stream from it?0 -
What actual infrastructure does this provide to the country which is needed? If there is going to be casinos in Ireland then it would be criminal for the government not to DIRECTLY get paid for issuing a license. This is how it works in other countries and the counties/states in US which have legalised large casino operations.
The government must AUCTION the right to operate a casino to gain as much cash for itself that it can. Given the state of the government finances it would be negligent to do otherwise.
If licensees had to pay big money, then only properly viable proposals could compete (it would be more likely to be built near an airport and/or a commercial city like Cork or Dublin).
To hand these developers a license for free in exchange for the creation of a few jobs building another race course (while existing ones are underused) a dog track and yet another hotel (while hotels are going bust every week) miles from a population centre or airport would be madness. And these jobs would be temporary (during construction) because every job in the new hotel and race courses would simply be displacing one somewhere else given the glut of these facilities in the country.0 -
IngazZagni wrote: »I don't know why people are making a deal of the developers financial situations and where they will get the funds. That's not really the issue; they either can or cannot and with them having invested so much so far you would expect them to have that area dealt with. I stress expect.
Eh, have you heard of NAMA?
Set up because of our property bubble where vast tracts of lands were being rezoned and flipped. Then planning was pushed through by councillors in the name of progress for developments that were totally unsustainable. I'm having a bit of deja vu with this one.
The promoters may well have the cash which demonstrates the type of money you can make from slot machine halls.This is an ambitious project absolutely and I have my doubts too.
I see people mentioning the fact that we already have golf courses, racecourses, empty hotels etc. True but we have nothing like this. All these places do nothing to attract people from Ireland, let alone outside it. Comparing a small outlet mall to something like this is ludacris. The developments couldn't any different.
A racecourse like the Curragh is not up to scratch to attract a big money event from the likes of Dubai but this development would.
Do you honestly believe that Two Mile Boris will compete with Dubai? Not a chance.
We have world reknown golf courses here - both parkland and links - and these are having problems getting punters in. Look at The K Club - 5 star hotel and Ryder Cup venue.
Also I think you need to look at the clientele who go racing. It's every walk of life and that's what makes it successful. You'll have the best dressed women at the same venue with farmers with baler twine holding up their strides. I've been to racecourses in the UK and it's a similar mix of people.
Why do you think Dubai is successful? The course, the buildings? Nope. It's the Sheik that makes it successful. What he wants, he gets. It is also a substantially bigger facility than Tipp. From what I can see the stadia has a capacity for 2,000 while Dubai 60,000. It's not even at the races as they might stay.
Let's face it, we're one of the key horse breeding markets in the world, have had tax breaks for the industry and we have some fine racecourses. If we were capable of attracting this type of business to Ireland we would have done so by now.
And what's with the dogs? Will they be attracting the high rolling greyhound racers as well? Come for the horses and stay for the dogs!
I'm guessing that the horse and dog races were thrown into to sweeten the casino pill.Why not give it a tax-break? Currently we are receiving zero in revenue from them. Give them an incentive to set-up camp and tax revenue bigger than zero will roll in. Exactly like how our corporate tax works. Without it would we have Google, Ebay, Microsoft, Facebook etc set up here? I doubt it.
You're comparing chalk and cheese. No tax breaks and the licence needs to be auctioned. Then we ca tax the revue stream on top of that. If we are going to build unsustainable businesses in the middle of know where then no reason we can't tax them to the hilt.As for leagalising gambling in general. Again why not? It's done by thousands in Ireland sitting in their computer chairs. Why not legalise it, regulate it and have a revenue stream from it?
No problem with that. But do we want legalised casinos and slots in every town in Ireland? Because this is what will follow. Look what happened in Australia when they liberalised the gambling laws.
As said elsewhere, this is not going to be a high roller venue. I'm sure there will be a few in a special room in the whitehouse. The typical punter will be the ordinary joe soaps who will be there to play the slots. That's why there's provision for 5,000 car spaces and 136 coach spaces. You can see the blue rinse brigade being bussed in for a day at the slots. And the supporters are right - it's not fair to compare it to Las Vegas style venues. It would be more comparable to one of those in an Indian reservation.
High rollers me arse. They'll be sticking with Mayfair, Monaco and Dubai.0 -
IngazZagni wrote: »Why not give it a tax-break? Currently we are receiving zero in revenue from them. Give them an incentive to set-up camp and tax revenue bigger than zero will roll in. Exactly like how our corporate tax works. Without it would we have Google, Ebay, Microsoft, Facebook etc set up here? I doubt it.
Yes because the tax breaks given to property developers over the past twenty years has created a stong and stable economy and produced thousands of sustainable jobs? Tax breaks only distort markets and while a sector may grow due to the introduction of a tax break, it can often be a false economy. And the low corporate tax is not only for MNCs, it would be the same rate for the operators of this facility, why should Quirke get tax breaks on top of this? If it wont work without tax breaks then it shouldnt go ahead. End of.0 -
IngazZagni wrote: »A racecourse like the Curragh is not up to scratch to attract a big money event from the likes of Dubai but this development would.
Its not that long ago that the curragh had the richest derby in the world, but the money now is way beyond what we can hope to sell. The amount of money that dubai throws at things like the desert classic, the golf desert classic and the grand prix is compleatly and utterly beyond anything that can be done in two mile borris - and they all run at a loss. they operate because of the rulers endless pockets of cash.
as has been pointed out the basic problem with the planned development isntthe ideas - the ideas are great. It is that the planned developments as they stand (one casino, a small racecourse - the curragh and fairyhouse hold more and they are 45 mins away and nearer dublin - a small greyhound track, some sort of amusment park) can never hope to generate enough money to attract events such as the dubai derby.
The only way it could would be to multiply in size an complexity a lot - now this is an old trick we are all familier with, the old "alteration to existing planning permission" ploy, and I would imagine that ABP will be keeping an eye out. The only other alternative is to move the licence elsewhere. It wont be mick or dicks fault though, they will find someone to blame, and it will serve micks followers sense of grievence no harm if the licence ends up in dublin "with their airports, their luases, trains and buses" and the man himself once told me.0 -
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I see some very good points here in which I agree with many.
As regards to "competing with Dubai". I think people have got it wrong. That's not necessarily what is meant. What is meant is that it will attract various big races from the likes of Dubai. Big money races that haven't been in Ireland could well come over here. However, Dubai will still remain the king in that area. Attracting higher profile races might be a better way of putting it.
Dubai is almost as an unsustainable city as Las Vegas. If they don't get their business end of things sorted, once their oil reserves run out, they will be the next financial victim.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Yes because the tax breaks given to property developers over the past twenty years has created a stong and stable economy and produced thousands of sustainable jobs? Tax breaks only distort markets and while a sector may grow due to the introduction of a tax break, it can often be a false economy. And the low corporate tax is not only for MNCs, it would be the same rate for the operators of this facility, why should Quirke get tax breaks on top of this? If it wont work without tax breaks then it shouldnt go ahead. End of.
But the property market was never about sustainable jobs. It was always about the now. They build the house/complex and they expected it to be bought. That was never a sustainable way of doing things and eventually that era ended. All those people that skipped college for construction work are now regretting that "it's big now" deal.
This facility is different in that it is primarily about the facilities and services it provides and things need to be built in order for it to happen.
Of course I forgot that Quirke's company already operates under Corporate tax laws I believe. I wouldn't be advocating further cuts here, but would want the new taxes like gambling licenses to be kept low. These can't be described as tax breaks because they don't exist yet.
I need to stress, that I'm very doubtful about this project as well. But when someone wants to invest hundreds of millions of euro into the Irish economy with private funds which could create a couple thousand sustainable jobs then I'm all ears. These developers have seen the crisis that has hit Ireland and can see all the empty hotels, golf courses etc yet they are still pushing harder than ever for this to go ahead. It's a brave plan but I don't think anyone knows fully whether it's of the smart kind, or stupid kind.0 -
IngazZagni wrote: »But when someone wants to invest hundreds of millions of euro into the Irish economy with private funds which could create a couple thousand sustainable jobs then I'm all ears. These developers have seen the crisis that has hit Ireland and can see all the empty hotels, golf courses etc yet they are still pushing harder than ever for this to go ahead.
That's the kind of thinking that said "But Sean Quinn is a genius - Sean Fitzpatrick is a genius - Derek Quinlan, Liam Caroll etc. these guys know what they are doing". Turned out they didn't.
Anyway, here's someone else who thinks it's a load of crap as well.The Irish Examiner wrote:Casino consultant dismisses Tipperary Venue
By Conall Ó Fátharta - Wednesday, June 15, 2011
A PROMINENT casino consultant has questioned the sustainability of the proposed €460 million casino and leisure complex in rural Tipperary — saying he personally would not invest in such a project.
An Bord Pleanála approved much of the controversial project despite a recommendation for refusal by its own planning inspector, who conducted an oral hearing into the planned Tipperary Venue earlier this year.
Paul Sculpher, a British-based consultant for casino projects, said the Nevada-style complex proposed for Two-Mile-Borris would need a "massive audience" of tens of thousands a week in order to be viable.
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"With 2,000 staff which they are talking about from opening onwards, it’s almost impossible to imagine that volume of customers travelling specifically to Tipperary to gamble when there are plenty of other gambling venues around Ireland and around Europe."
Mr Sculpher said the only way the proposal could succeed is if it provided gaming at a low cost to the operator.
"Slot machine gaming is critical. It’s not absolutely clear how that is going to look within the law in terms of how many machines and the maximum jackpots they are going to allow. The only way it could be conceivably sustainable is if they can offer a lot of gaming at a relatively low cost to the operator — and that means slot machines."
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"The Crown in Melbourne, which is on an even bigger scale again, but there is no other casino gaming allowed in the whole state of Victoria. So it’s difficult to see an audience for whom this is going to be the most convenient casino."
Businessman Ben Dunne described the investment as "laughable", claiming it would never be built. He said the investors should instead put their money in small business ventures.
"It’s completely off-the-wall," Mr Dunne said. "What got us into the state we are in today was off-the-wall ideas from financiers and the likes. If you’re into gambling, you will want to go to Monte Carlo and you will want to go to Las Vegas and all the gambling capitals of the world. But to think that a one-off situation is going to work down in Borris is off-the-wall."
Currently, casinos are illegal in Ireland under the 1956 Gaming and Lottery Act. There are some 50 premises across the country offering casino-type games. However, they have avoided prosecution as they are operated as private members’ clubs.
Slot machines and poker machines are also outlawed in many local authority areas, including Dublin city.And what's with the dogs? Will they be attracting the high rolling greyhound racers as well? Come for the horses and stay for the dogs!
I'm guessing that the horse and dog races were thrown into to sweeten the casino pill.
But do we want legalised casinos and slots in every town in Ireland? Because this is what will follow. Look what happened in Australia when they liberalised the gambling laws.
As said elsewhere, this is not going to be a high roller venue. I'm sure there will be a few in a special room in the whitehouse. The typical punter will be the ordinary joe soaps who will be there to play the slots. That's why there's provision for 5,000 car spaces and 136 coach spaces. You can see the blue rinse brigade being bussed in for a day at the slots.
Forget your WhiteHouse, your race track, your dog track and all the other crap. If it's ever going to be built, this is going to be a slot machine warehouse. But the real purpose I suspect is to get slot machines allowed everywhere else - including Dublin. Then the motivation of its backer, Dr. Quirkey, becomes clearer.0 -
Paul Sculpher does not have the experience of the Irish Casino Business and failed to give an example of a similiar project that he was involved with or worked on that could be compared to that of the Tipperary Venue. It is worth pointing out that the U.K has not one casino attached to a Golf course and have never attempted a resort style Casino project. Also the size of the proposed Casino in Tipperary is roughly the same size as Star City Casino In Birmingham England which I thought he would have known.It is my opinion that a 'resort style Casino' would work in Ireland provided it is presented in a proper way and that is what my 30 years experience in this industry tell me.0
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IngazZagni wrote: »
I need to stress, that I'm very doubtful about this project as well. But when someone wants to invest hundreds of millions of euro into the Irish economy with private funds which could create a couple thousand sustainable jobs then I'm all ears. These developers have seen the crisis that has hit Ireland and can see all the empty hotels, golf courses etc yet they are still pushing harder than ever for this to go ahead. It's a brave plan but I don't think anyone knows fully whether it's of the smart kind, or stupid kind.
Yes they have seen what happens and now know its a no lose situation.
The problem is that private funds soon become social losses when everything goes belly up.
Developers now know that if everything fails that the taxpayer will eventually pick up the tab,the bigger the better(too big to fail)
Sure they will get a rap on the knuckles and a few lines in a newspaper but by then they'll be living in the States with all their possesions in their wives names and not a worry in the world.0 -
Casino Man wrote: »Paul Sculpher does not have the experience of the Irish Casino Business and failed to give an example of a similiar project that he was involved with or worked on that could be compared to that of the Tipperary Venue. It is worth pointing out that the U.K has not one casino attached to a Golf course and have never attempted a resort style Casino project. Also the size of the proposed Casino in Tipperary is roughly the same size as Star City Casino In Birmingham England which I thought he would have known.It is my opinion that a 'resort style Casino' would work in Ireland provided it is presented in a proper way and that is what my 30 years experience in this industry tell me.
The Tipperary Venue is not just a casino, the plan is to spend close to half a billion euro and take c.110 hectares of prime agricultural land and c.220 hectares of commercial forestry, in an archaeologically sensitive area and diverting or culverting parts of the Derheen and Clover Rivers to create;- A 500 bedroom 5-star hotel when we already have on oversupply of 15000 hotel rooms with 34 hotels having been taken over by NAMA
- A golf course when we already have about 450 with 29 either in receivership, being run by banks or in NAMA. The region is already well catered for with nearby courses in Thurles, Clonmel, Dundrum, Cashel and Kilkenny
- A horse track and greyhound track despite the fact that there are 26 existing racecourses in Ireland representing the highest per capita ratio of racecourse numbers to population in the world. Similar figures apply to greyhound racing courses.
- 20 retail units ignoring the huge vacancy rates around the country
FYI, Dublin is 91st-largest with a GDP of only $61bn. Two-Mile-Borris dont make the list.
And I dont buy all this "its private money" crap. If I have half a billion euro should I be allowed to destroy 800 acres of our little island for some vanity project.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »
- 20 retail units ignoring the huge vacancy rates around the country
I might be mistaken, but I think those retail units were denied permission by North Tipp Co Co planning authority.0 -
I might be mistaken, but I think those retail units were denied permission by North Tipp Co Co planning authority.
You could be right, I was working off the description in the ABP inspectors report. Do you know when North Tipp Co Co made their decision or have a reference number for the application so we can check it out?0 -
What if this was built between the M50 and the airport (site of proposed Dardistown metro stop)? It's got the big city, the airport, the infrastructure, the housing for staff. Plus it builds something on otherwise "undesirable" (noisy) land. In future it could have a metro stop to the city/airport. Sure, get them to finance some of the metro as part of planning permission.
Or maybe that's too Dublin-centric. I'm sure a similar location could be found for Cork or Limerick/Shannon.0 -
What if this was built between the M50 and the airport (site of proposed Dardistown metro stop)? It's got the big city, the airport, the infrastructure, the housing for staff. Plus it builds something on otherwise "undesirable" (noisy) land. In future it could have a metro stop to the city/airport. Sure, get them to finance some of the metro as part of planning permission.
Or maybe that's too Dublin-centric. I'm sure a similar location could be found for Cork or Limerick/Shannon.
Why build it all?
It would make perfect sense to build it in Dublin or Cork as you need to be able to tap into a ready market of people who will man the slot machines.
M50 would make sense as the coaches of rural folks could make it quickly up the m-ways to spend their coinage.
Public transport is not really important to a project like this. Road access is.
It would also require a smaller site as we wouldn't need to bother with the charade of racecourses and dog tracks. In fact the sheiks could drop into the casino on their way to their stud farms in Kildare or if going the Curragh races!
It does make me laugh when the promoter and his supporters claim that this will not be a slot machine barn like the casinos on Indian reservations. It will be high rollers all they way they say. They simply forget that Monte Carlo will be Monte Carlo without the casino, Dubai will be Dubai without the horse track, Mayfair will still be part of London without the casinos. Two Mile Borris will be, eh, Two Mile Borris without the Tipperary Venue.
Great post by PeteCavan on this topic. One of the odd things about ABP is that they don't take in the commercial considerations of any project which is a bot odd.Casino Man wrote:Paul Sculpher does not have the experience of the Irish Casino Business
Just as well as the Irish casino business extends nothing beyond running slot machine halls. Which of course maybe highly appropriate under the circumstances.
Interesting interview with Quirkey in the Irish Times on Saturday and how he described his business ethics before he came a "new man".0 -
Putting in casinos will require the government to make serious investments in addiction management. Casinos in Canada are supposed to have programmes where people can "get themselves barred" but they have been found inadequate in places. All that to say - the government might make money but there will be a big difference between gross and net.
I also fully endorse the suggestion above that this application is the thin end of the wedge which will see casinos licensed elsewhere once the initial "balanced development in the regions" venture flops.
STT Security will get another nice gig patrolling the car park for children left to themselves, another thing that happens here.
The one place where there is a good analogue for a Canadian casino/event location would be Killarney. It's the only respect where its level of ridiculous kitsch doesn't quite match up to Niagara Falls, Ontario.0 -
Shatter has put the final nail in the coffin for this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0921/casino.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitterShatter rules out Two-Mile Borris super casino
The Minister for Justice has said the proposed super-casino outside Thurles in Co Tipperary will not now go ahead.
Alan Shatter said the casino at Thurles was "out" based on a decision at Cabinet yesterday.
He said there was no need for a resort style casino in this country and Government would make provision for more modest casinos as exist at present in the country.
The minister was announcing the preparation of a new gambling bill, which he said would be published next year.
Last June, An Bord Pleanála gave the go-ahead for a casino, 500-bedroom hotel and racetrack complex at Two-Mile Borris in Co Tipperary.
The project's promoter Richard Quirke said at the time that the development advanced the implementation of his vision and ambition for the site.
He said he had instructed his design team and management to proceed to the next appropriate stages of the development.
Independent TD Michael Lowry said it would bring major investment and jobs to the area.0 -
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So no ghost casino to go with the ghost estates? :pac:0
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Great news! to hell with the gombeen men.0
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Yet more government interference in a decsion made by An Bord Pleanála. They had absolutely no business getting involved and Shatter is a clutz for doing it. If only they were so willing to stick their noses into more important decisions.
I'm totally neutral on this particular project but from what I could see it was a huge booster for the local economy and for employment, something we really need badly. As for the development itself and the arguments for and against casinos etc, I really don't care, my issue is with the interference by government. Apalling political gouging - although we should have expected nothing less. I'm enraged at that.0 -
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Err, the government didnt interfer with the decision made by An Bord Pleanála. The government is introducing legislation which will ban resort style casinos but will make provision for more modest casinos. Previous legislation in this area was outdated and needed an overhaul and the new legislation is intended to regulate casinos (limit the size, number of tables/slot machines, etc.) which is beyond the remit of ABP. ABPs decision was always going to be subject to other relevant legislation so there was no interference.Yet more government interference in a decsion made by An Bord Pleanála. They had absolutely no business getting involved and Shatter is a clutz for doing it. If only they were so willing to stick their noses into more important decisions.
I'm totally neutral on this particular project but from what I could see it was a huge booster for the local economy and for employment, something we really need badly. As for the development itself and the arguments for and against casinos etc, I really don't care, my issue is with the interference by government. Apalling political gouging - although we should have expected nothing less. I'm enraged at that.
They can still build a casino, just not the 2,000 table monstrosity they had hoped for. There are also many other aspects of the project (hotel, golf course, equestrian centre, dog track, etc.) which are also free to proceed (and it should be noted that all these are also subject to other legilation - just because ABP gave the go-ahead for a hotel does not mean it doesnt have to be build in accordance with the building regulations). If they decide not to go ahead with these it will prove that this was all about getting as many fools into the casino to feed money into slot machines and the other aspects where just stuck on to appease the locals.
I think it is also worth noting that ABP went against their own inspector's recommendation to refuse permission.0 -
This proposed casino is bigger than anything in the UK. That country has a population of 60 million. Do we really want organized crime, whoring, drug dealing amd essentially some most unsavoury types frequenting our shores? I think we have enough dealing with our own.0
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All the crap talked about jobs that would have been created (regardless of social costs) reminds me of a conversation that I had with a publican at Limerick Junction back in the 1980s - he seriously wanted the Yanks to relocate their nukes from Greenham Common to Ireland because of the jobs potential. :rolleyes:0
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In the same day, I caught a glimpse of this proposal from The Irish Times website:PLANS FOR a multimillion-euro themed adventure park beside Bunratty Castle and Folk Park are being pursued by Shannon Development.
The regional development agency is seeking expressions of interest from third parties to develop a major tourism development on a 120-acre land bank in Bunratty, Co Clare, which would boost tourism revenues in the midwest.
The agency states that it will complement Bunratty Castle and Folk Park, which occupies less than a third of the lands that will accommodate the new tourist attraction. The castle and folk park is already one of Ireland’s most popular tourist attractions with 400,000 visitors annually.
In tender documentation, Shannon Development states that there are gaps in the market for a themed adventure park aimed at the family market and the location on a major inter-urban motorway and proximity to Shannon International Airport are added benefits.
Another proposal for the land bank put forward by the agency is an “Ireland through the ages history and cultural centre”, incorporating a diaspora visitor centre and genealogy centre.
The agency’s research indicates that there may be an opportunity to develop a “one-stop shop” for visitors to learn as much as possible about Ireland’s history and culture in one location.
The tender documentation states: “It is estimated that the size of the available market for cultural tourism in Ireland from main source markets of Britain, United States, France and Germany to be of the order of 65 million.”
Sample themes/interpretation spaces could include: Ireland and the world; timeline of Irish history; diaspora centre; genealogy centre and county hall of fame; culture and activity orientation centre; retail, restaurant etc.
A third approach for the land bank, according to the agency, are innovative proposals relating to “activity, outdoor adventure and soft-adventure” tourism.
According to Shannon Development, its preferred option is to enter a development and management agreement with a party for the development and operation of the attraction. It says at least five candidates will be invited to submit detailed tenders.
Shannon Development says the 120 acres are within a strategic development zone that allows a wide range of developments to be considered. The documentation states: “Informal discussions have taken place with Clare County Council who have indicated that they would welcome a tourism-related planning application for this strategic site.”
Vice-president of the Irish Hotels Federation Michael Vaughan said yesterday: “Hats off to Shannon Development on this.
“We are delighted that they are taking this initiative and such a project could lead to a reversal in the tourist fortunes of Limerick and east Clare.”
The Lahinch-based hotelier added: “Bunratty does need to reinvent itself and this innovative idea is very worthwhile. This proposal could also lead to a resurgency in Shannon Development’s core competency of developing tourism products. It has been a long time since the agency developed a new product.”
Mr Vaughan said that because of Shannon Development’s finances, it required a third party to pursue the opportunity. Interested parties have until March 30th to lodge their expressions of interest.
It's a petty that there is no mention of rides such as roller-coasters which are key attractions.:D0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »Err, the government didnt interfer with the decision made by An Bord Pleanála. The government is introducing legislation which will ban resort style casinos but will make provision for more modest casinos. Previous legislation in this area was outdated and needed an overhaul and the new legislation is intended to regulate casinos (limit the size, number of tables/slot machines, etc.) which is beyond the remit of ABP. ABPs decision was always going to be subject to other relevant legislation so there was no interference.
They can still build a casino, just not the 2,000 table monstrosity they had hoped for. There are also many other aspects of the project (hotel, golf course, equestrian centre, dog track, etc.) which are also free to proceed (and it should be noted that all these are also subject to other legilation - just because ABP gave the go-ahead for a hotel does not mean it doesnt have to be build in accordance with the building regulations). If they decide not to go ahead with these it will prove that this was all about getting as many fools into the casino to feed money into slot machines and the other aspects where just stuck on to appease the locals.
I think it is also worth noting that ABP went against their own inspector's recommendation to refuse permission.
Granted they aren't interfering directly with the ABP decision but they're effectively changing the law purposely to stop this project from going ahead - it's a particuarly unique one and if it did there would be very little market for any others.
I read a lot of the ABP inspector's report and I thought her reasoning for refusing permission a little weak. I reckon she's the old fashioned sort who goes to mass every day and abhorrs gambling.
Again, while I don't particularly like the bad effects of gambling (I suffer from them often enough :P ) that can happen in a small casino just as easily and I see no reason why on earth a larger casino can't be allowed. It's the same principle only scaled up. This decision makes no sense.0 -
Let's cut out the dramatics. Plenty of casinos (many run by First Nations) operate in Canada without reports of "whoring and unsavoury types".This proposed casino is bigger than anything in the UK. That country has a population of 60 million. Do we really want organized crime, whoring, drug dealing amd essentially some most unsavoury types frequenting our shores? I think we have enough dealing with our own.
A fairer comparison to an Irish set up is the lower level but deeply sad stuff that does happen in casinos here though - the need to patrol car parks to check for children left in cars for hours and the regular failure of the system where gambling addicts can apply to have themselves barred but when they inevitably buckle the security staff manage to bungle it and let them in.
[oops - just noticed I basically repeated myself from June last]
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No, the government is changing the law because the current legislation dates from 1931 and 1956 - it needs updating.Granted they aren't interfering directly with the ABP decision but they're effectively changing the law purposely to stop this project from going ahead - it's a particuarly unique one and if it did there would be very little market for any others.
Obvisously there is the question of the viability of such resort casinos in this country. One point Alan Shatter made was that the cost to the state of regulating, inspecting and enforcing the legislation on larger casinos would be too much.Again, while I don't particularly like the bad effects of gambling (I suffer from them often enough :P ) that can happen in a small casino just as easily and I see no reason why on earth a larger casino can't be allowed. It's the same principle only scaled up. This decision makes no sense.0 -
Judgement Day wrote: »All the crap talked about jobs that would have been created (regardless of social costs) reminds me of a conversation that I had with a publican at Limerick Junction back in the 1980s - he seriously wanted the Yanks to relocate their nukes from Greenham Common to Ireland because of the jobs potential. :rolleyes:
given that Shannon was on the Soviet target map it wouldn't have posed much a logistical issue for them to add in Limerick Junction
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I really hope this project can go ahead without the casino, and anyway I agree with the government that there are serious social problems associated with casinos and gambling.
The interesting thing about the legislation is that it is intended to protect the most vulnerable, but will still allow seedy little casinos with a small number of tables to exist in towns around the country, way from the glaring view of the public.
I would have thought that it is little casinos like this that would attract the most vulnerable, as generally the most vulnerable would not have the resources to travel so far out of their way to stay in an expensive hotel to gamble. I guess their are some vulnerable people in two mile borris, but I am guessing not enough for 2000 tables.
Also, would not be harder to police numerous small casinos around the country than it would to police one big one.
Again, I would prefer the project to go ahead sans-casino, but I think think that legislation should also remove all the dodgy little private club casinos that in my opinion are much worse than big resort style casinos that generally only prey on their wealthy guests.0 -
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Why do you think there would only be one big one? The new legislation applies to all casinos so if larger casinos were permitted many more would spring up around the country. It is easier to police numerous small casinos than to police numerous big ones.Also, would not be harder to police numerous small casinos around the country than it would to police one big one.0
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