Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Monty Burnz · 14-06-2011 12:00AM

Deleted User wrote: »

he's certainly not an excellent scrum half. I would challenge you to name 5 things that a scrum half does that he is excellent at.

He is a very good all round rugby player, but in a specialised position like scrum half, is severely lacking a lot of the skills necessary to be classed amongst the best.

I'd struggle to name any scrum half who is excellent at '5 things that a scrum half does'.

14-06-2011 12:07AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd struggle to name any scrum half who is excellent at '5 things that a scrum half does'.

Will Genia - Kicks well, breaks well, makes correct decisions often, sweeps well around rucks and mauls, passes well. Pienaar, Parra, Dupuy, Kelleher and even Philips are able to handle these skills to a far better standard than O'Leary.

From what I've seen of Murray, he also seems to be able to handle all of the above just fine. He may prove excellent at them in time, but even at "fine" is currently is a far better scrum-half than TOL, who on the other hand can arguably lay claim to 2 of the 5 above. And is a "fair" passer and decision maker, and a poor kicker.

buck65 · 14-06-2011 07:14AM

O Leary is 3rd choice Munster scrum half, says it all really. The guys form is shot, ok he's been unlucky with injury as well and I was willing to give him a chance.
He played against Connacht recently, in a game which Munster dominated and he was still brutal, the ball presents itself O Leary does his usual 3 second look around, defence reforms - advantage gone.
I have only been going to Munster games for around 7 years but that was the worst ever performance by a scrum half I have seen.
Yes on form he is good, very strong in defense, can make a break but his passing is woefully slow and shovel like. Should be nowhere near the RWC squad.

antlyn · 14-06-2011 09:16AM

Sale Sharks have released Andy Tuilagi, a good player who can play wing and outside centre. I'd rate him higher than Tuitupou anyday!

GerM · 14-06-2011 09:43AM

antlyn wrote: »

Sale Sharks have released Andy Tuilagi, a good player who can play wing and outside centre. I'd rate him higher than Tuitupou anyday!

I wouldn't. He's the Fredo of the Tuilagi family. Released by Leicester, released by Sale. Munster would be mad to waste their last NIQ spot on him. They've players that should be able to do just as good a job as him. He doesn't have the power or impact of his brothers. Decent player but would be criminal to shove the likes of Barnes or Zebo down the pecking order for another year or two to play him.

PhatPiggins · 14-06-2011 10:27AM

GerM wrote: »

I wouldn't. He's the Fredo of the family. Released by Leicester, released by Sale. Munster would be mad to waste their last NIQ spot on him. They've players that should be able to do just as good a job as him. He doesn't have the power or impact of his brothers. Decent player but would be criminal to shove the likes of Barnes or Zebo down the pecking order for another year or two to play him.

You forgot release by Leeds as well!! Its really saying something when the runt of the litter is 6ft1 and 15+stones. I'd love to see what Mr&Mrs Tuilagi look like, they must be built like the proverbial brick sh*t houses.

14-06-2011 10:51AM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

You forgot release by Leeds as well!! Its really saying something when the runt of the litter is 6ft1 and 15+stones. I'd love to see what Mr&Mrs Tuilagi look like, they must be built like the proverbial brick sh*t houses.

The dinner table must've been outrageous

buck65 · 14-06-2011 10:54AM

GerM wrote: »

I wouldn't. He's the Fredo of the Tuilagi family. Released by Leicester, released by Sale. Munster would be mad to waste their last NIQ spot on him. They've players that should be able to do just as good a job as him. He doesn't have the power or impact of his brothers. Decent player but would be criminal to shove the likes of Barnes or Zebo down the pecking order for another year or two to play him.

Is this a Godfather reference?

Amazotheamazing · 14-06-2011 10:56AM

buck65 wrote: »

Is this a Godfather reference?

No, he's a small chocolate bar you can buy for 25 cent.

TheJims · 14-06-2011 11:12AM

i noticed a quote on the ESPNScrum Website that defo turned me off the idea of having him at munster,

He played 42 games for Sale, scoring three tries in the process

3 tries out of 42 games against mainly Aviva Premiership teams??

roycon · 14-06-2011 11:52AM

buck65 wrote: »

O Leary is 3rd choice Munster scrum half, says it all really. The guys form is shot, ok he's been unlucky with injury as well and I was willing to give him a chance.
He played against Connacht recently, in a game which Munster dominated and he was still brutal, the ball presents itself O Leary does his usual 3 second look around, defence reforms - advantage gone.
I have only been going to Munster games for around 7 years but that was the worst ever performance by a scrum half I have seen.
Yes on form he is good, very strong in defense, can make a break but his passing is woefully slow and shovel like. Should be nowhere near the RWC squad.

why do all munster fans suddenly hate tomas oleary. hes been injured for so long now and hes getting so much abuse.as a leinster fan id gladly take him off your hands (although hed never go)

14-06-2011 12:00PM

roycon wrote: »

why do all munster fans suddenly hate tomas oleary. hes been injured for so long now and hes getting so much abuse.as a leinster fan id gladly take him off your hands (although hed never go)

Why? Honestly? What would he bring that we don't already have?

Amazotheamazing · 14-06-2011 12:14PM

roycon wrote: »

why do all munster fans suddenly hate tomas oleary. hes been injured for so long now and hes getting so much abuse.as a leinster fan id gladly take him off your hands (although hed never go)

O'Leary has never really been a popular player. I've never seen a guy who got as much leeway from a coach tbh. In his first two seasons in the ML he almost directly cost us games with his passing. He improved a lot for the HEC in 2008 and the Grand Slam in 2009 but he's been poor ever since then, imo.

I don't know if Murray is the answer, but hopefully he'll be able to either force O'Leary to raise his game or he'll win the starting spot outright.

Risteard · 14-06-2011 12:20PM

I wouldn't say anyone hates O'Leary, I don't see why any player would be hated, it's just when he's off form he's not a very good scrum half. I think in terms of a rugby players he's pretty good, fast, strong and a good footballer but in terms of scrum half his passing and box kicking aren't that great. Certainly Murray looks to be the most complete scrum half we have despite his inexperience.

Amazotheamazing · 14-06-2011 12:22PM

Risteard wrote: »

I wouldn't say anyone hates O'Leary, I don't see why any player would be hated, it's just when he's off form he's not a very good scrum half. I think in terms of a rugby players he's pretty good, fast, strong and a good footballer but in terms of scrum half his passing and box kicking aren't that great. Certainly Murray looks to be the most complete scrum half we have despite his inexperience.

Murray got a free ride in his games this season though, wait until the opposition work out his weaknesses and put pressure on him and we'll see how he does.

Risteard · 14-06-2011 12:27PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Murray got a free ride in his games this season though, wait until the opposition work out his weaknesses and put pressure on him and we'll see how he does.

His box kicking and passing are better than O'Leary's. If he gets good protection from his forwards, I wouldn't worry too much.

CatFromHue · 14-06-2011 12:28PM

Was there an issue with his club before he made it with munster about them not wanting him at scrum half?

I can't remember the full ins and outs of it.

His passing is poor for a scrum half but his tackling and work rate is high. It could be argued that the try saving tackle he made away to Clermont in 2007/08 was a big moment in Munster getting the away bonus point that got them out of their group.

Considering how key passing is to his position though thats a big problem.

buck65 · 14-06-2011 12:37PM

Munster fans don't hate O Leary, they just got tired of having an in form Peter Stringer on the bench regardless of O Leary's form ahead of him.
O Leary being out this season was a blessing in disguise for us.
Also fair play to McGahan who resisted the urge to pick O Leary when he returned for the big games and threw Murray (and Jones) in at the deep end when the safer bet was O Leary and Warwick.

PhatPiggins · 14-06-2011 12:48PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Murray got a free ride in his games this season though, wait until the opposition work out his weaknesses and put pressure on him and we'll see how he does.

The only one I've repeatedly noticed is that he joins the line of defence instead of sweeping in behind. I only saw us exposed to one chip kick but we were open to it a few times. Something that be easily fixed though.

premierstone · 14-06-2011 12:50PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Was there an issue with his club before he made it with munster about them not wanting him at scrum half?

I can't remember the full ins and outs of it.

TOL played centre and wing for Dolphin, and Murray has played outhalf and centre for Young Munster and Garryowen, nothing unusual there and they are both 6ft plus.

profitius · 14-06-2011 12:58PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Murray got a free ride in his games this season though, wait until the opposition work out his weaknesses and put pressure on him and we'll see how he does.

Murray has fewer weaknesses than TOL so the opposition would have a harder time exploiting any of his weaknesses.

premierstone wrote: »

TOL played centre and wing for Dolphin, and Murray has played outhalf and centre for Young Munster and Garryowen, nothing unusual there and they are both 6ft plus.

TOL isn't that tall but he is a good all round athlete. His father was Seanie O'Leary a stocky hurler who played for Cork.

irishbucsfan · 14-06-2011 01:02PM

I'm a big Murray fan and hope he'll be a superstar, but its far too early to judge him yet.

Remember how excited people were about O'Leary after the 08 season?

profitius · 14-06-2011 01:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm a big Murray fan and hope he'll be a superstar, but its far too early to judge him yet.

Remember how excited people were about O'Leary after the 08 season?

People were excited before they realised TOL had many weaknesses to his game. Murray is a much better player already than TOL and Stringer and he'll get better.

irishbucsfan · 14-06-2011 01:35PM

profitius wrote: »

People were excited before they realised TOL had many weaknesses to his game. Murray is a much better player already than TOL and Stringer and he'll get better.

My point is that people were saying "TOL is already a much better player than Strings" after the 08 final. They weren't aware of his weaknesses.

Lets just cross our fingers that Murray doesn't have any weaknesses like that that we're unaware of yet.

But signs are good at the moment.

Amazotheamazing · 14-06-2011 01:57PM

premierstone wrote: »

TOL played centre and wing for Dolphin, and Murray has played outhalf and centre for Young Munster and Garryowen, nothing unusual there and they are both 6ft plus.

TOL played with Con before going to Dolphin though and the reason he left Con is they didn't see him as a scrumhalf. Even in school he was moved from scrumhalf to allow Duncan Williams play there, even though Williams is a good year or two younger than TOL.

TOL is a fantastic athlete but that alone isn't enough. He needs to work on his skills and he's 27 now, are they really going to improve much?

A big shame of this season is Williams got injured again. At this stage you'd have to think he's too injury prone to make it but maybe a change of scene would change that.

Amazotheamazing · 14-06-2011 02:01PM

profitius wrote: »

Murray has fewer weaknesses than TOL so the opposition would have a harder time exploiting any of his weaknesses.

Let's see. Weaknesses can only become apparent at the highest level, let's see how he handles pressure, what his organisation is like, if his pass holds up on the backfoot, what's his decision making is like, if he's fast enough for top level rugby etc. A guy with his physique may look great at AIL or ML level but let's see if holds up at higher levels than that.

I think it's way too early to judge Murray.

yupyup7up · 14-06-2011 02:03PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

The only one I've repeatedly noticed is that he joins the line of defence instead of sweeping in behind. I only saw us exposed to one chip kick but we were open to it a few times. Something that be easily fixed though.

Why would you have your scrum half sweeping constantly? that's what the full back and wings are for

(I say this as a winger)

If he's able to fill the gap in defensive line then he should do it. Haven't really seen him put a foot wrong. He's a big young fella too, spoke to him after the magners final and he must be 6'3"

14-06-2011 02:22PM

[QUOTE=yupyup7up;72759139]Why would you have your scrum half sweeping constantly? that's what the full back and wings are for

(I say this as a winger)

If he's able to fill the gap in defensive line then he should do it. Haven't really seen him put a foot wrong. He's a big young fella too, spoke to him after the magners final and he must be 6'3"[/QUOTE]

Because he's (alongside a full back) seen as a last line of defence.

Simply because if there is turnover ball, you want a scrum half there to organise a pack to control it, and give a good pass to the first receiver to take it on from there.

If your #9 is making all the back rows tackles, he's neglecting work that is needed elsewhere. His first and most important job is to get good ball to first receiver. Everything else is ancillary.

Of course its nice to see a scrum half making a big tackle, or a big break, but their primary objective is to put speed into the backline.

Judgement Day · 14-06-2011 02:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why? Honestly? What would he bring that we don't already have?

TOL would be a major asset to Munster if he moved to Leinster.

wixfjord · 14-06-2011 02:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Because he's (alongside a full back) seen as a last line of defence.

Simply because if there is turnover ball, you want a scrum half there to organise a pack to control it, and give a good pass to the first receiver to take it on from there.

If your #9 is making all the back rows tackles, he's neglecting work that is needed elsewhere. His first and most important job is to get good ball to first receiver. Everything else is ancillary.

Of course its nice to see a scrum half making a big tackle, or a big break, but their primary objective is to put speed into the backline.

Chris Whitaker is a great example imo of a scrum half with the brains to cover.
May not have been Genia like in pace, speed of pass, or kicking, but boy was he intelligent, and good at marshalling.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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