Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

10-06-2011 12:08PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Who's hyping to that extent, all anyone said was he was good enough for HEC rugby, if you think that's hype you must be missing the hype we've got going for Murray and POM.

Anyhow, think that was needless dig at Murphy. You have to remember Murphy spent virtually his entire career injured. The years before the 2006 season were blighted by injury too, ever since schools really. However, when he was fit he always showed his natural try scoring instincts that can't be coached imo. Just a lovely player to watch. Hell of a singer too, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOgr9amtkeU

Watch out for a surprisingly camera shy Felix Jones in that video too...

you must be joking that that is a dig at Murphy? Surely Murphy is a prime example of people getting ahead of themselves over a player? That "anything can happen"? Players with promise can not deliver on that for a myriad of reasons, injury, confidence, form, other professional paths, a player overtaking them, a change in situations. I'm not being derisory to Barnes, I'm being logical and rational. Barnes has it all to prove yet, anyone saying otherwise isn't thinking.

Hyper-sensitivity to rational thought is strange imo.

EDIT: As an aside, I saw that video before, ROG tweeted it. I didn't even recognise Murphy! Himself and Tomas O'Leary having a grizzly beard competition?

10-06-2011 12:27PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

Don't know how you can say he's quite a distance from HEC standard after bettering McFadden, who played for Leinster in the HEC???

I agree with you that he'll get there, but a lot sooner then you think.

Question, based on one display vs McFadden, would you start Danny Barnes in his stead in an Ireland game?

If the answer to this is yes, you are thinking bizarrely irrationally.

People have got to understand that logically and rationally discussing a player is not an insult to them. Here are some facts.

Danny Barnes is 21 years old.
Danny Barnes has started 4 games for Munster in the ML this season.
He started 1 game in the previous season.
He scored 2 excellent tries in one of those games.
He gave a decent account for himself in the Magners League Final. He was not excellent, Mafi was the standout centre in the game.
He has shown glimpses of brilliance, but still has a lot to learn.
He is yet to have any European Exposure.

Are you using beliefs or facts to come to the idea of him being HEC standard, based on 4 games played?

Again, hyper-senstivity to rational thought is strange.

Riskymove · 10-06-2011 12:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Question, based on one display vs McFadden, would you start Danny Barnes in his stead in an Ireland game?

Irish Rugby almost always completely overreacts to players like that.

Denis Hurley was the best thing since sliced bread after 2 HC games,

Tommy Bowe was "not up" to international Rugby for a long time

Andrew Conway would be going to the RWC

Sexton should have been starting for Ireland at a time when he was behind Contempomi at Leinster

etc etc

I hope Barnes comes on, he certainly shows a lot of potential

bamboozle · 10-06-2011 12:41PM

Riskymove wrote: »

Irish Rugby almost always completely overreacts to players like that.

Denis Hurley was the best thing since sliced bread after 2 HC games,

Tommy Bowe was "not up" to international Rugby for a long time

Andrew Conway would be going to the RWC

Sexton should have been starting for Ireland at a time when he was behind Contempomi at Leinster

etc etc

I hope Barnes comes on, he certainly shows a lot of potential

before Christmas some Munster fans were bigging up JohnE Murphy for the Irish squad, by end of season he cant get onto Munster's first 15, unless they are exceptional talents players need a season or two's exposure at ML and HC to be properly judged.

Hyping up Barnes after a few starts and a magner's league final playing against an injured BOD and behind a dominant pack is not fair to the player.

CatFromHue · 10-06-2011 12:49PM

i dont think those points were really true riskymove

the tommy bowe playing now is a different player than back when he first started. fair'd used to him for improving his game.

did anyone really say sexton should be starting for ireland back then? considering there is still an argument now at who should start for ireland and sexton is first choice for leinster makes me think not.

i do feel there is alot of underage players hyped up as the next thing by people. mainly so if they do make it the person who hyped em can say i told you so. i think conway is in this category. he looks like a very talented player but is in the right place for him at the moment. the u20s team.

you're right barnes has shown potential and looks a good prospect. emmet is right though the only centre in that game who really shone was mafi. mcfadden and bod were ok, barnes too.

spence did better against leinster than barnes. (its marginally though)

earls is a different story than barnes or anyone as in his first proper season with munster he played 23 times scoring 10 trys. thats quite an impact.

Riskymove · 10-06-2011 01:00PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

did anyone really say sexton should be starting for ireland back then? considering there is still an argument now at who should start for ireland and sexton is first choice for leinster makes me think not.

yes, they did, especially after the HC semifinal (he came off the bench)

i think conway is in this category. he looks like a very talented player but is in the right place for him at the moment. the u20s team.

agreed

GerM · 10-06-2011 01:17PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

i dont think those points were really true riskymove

the tommy bowe playing now is a different player than back when he first started. fair'd used to him for improving his game.

did anyone really say sexton should be starting for ireland back then? considering there is still an argument now at who should start for ireland and sexton is first choice for leinster makes me think not.

i do feel there is alot of underage players hyped up as the next thing by people. mainly so if they do make it the person who hyped em can say i told you so. i think conway is in this category. he looks like a very talented player but is in the right place for him at the moment. the u20s team.

you're right barnes has shown potential and looks a good prospect. emmet is right though the only centre in that game who really shone was mafi. mcfadden and bod were ok, barnes too.

spence did better against leinster than barnes. (its marginally though)

earls is a different story than barnes or anyone as in his first proper season with munster he played 23 times scoring 10 trys. thats quite an impact.

Great post. I always wonder when people quote the whole Hook saying Bowe is slow thing, do they remember how Bowe was regarded for the first year or two he was on the international scene? He took a lot of flak from a lot of people and not too many people thought he was up to international rugby. He got a run in the 2005 AI series and nobody was in a hurry to see him in green again. There wasn't much clamour for him to be involved in the 2007 WC either. And it was justified. His form for Ulster was good (not at the level in his last season there) but he never made anyone sit up and take notice when in green.

There's a huge amount of revisionism within Irish sport and the one thing we seem to enjoy as a nation just as much as building people up, is knocking them back down. I don't think there's a player that hasn't had a bandwagon jump down their throats and tell them they're either past it or told them they weren't good enough to make it. BOD, Bowe, POC, ROG, Ross, Healy, Heaslip, Sexton....the list is endless.

I'm as guilty as many; it's fun to try to spot the stars of the future. In reality, if 5 of the U20 side make a full professional career out of the game, in this country it will be an excellent return. The 2007 GS winning side has about 7 players making a good career out of the game. But we'll still have about 10 of the current U20 side being touted as future internationals.

Barnes is a solid player and I think he's definitely a decent career ahead of him. I can see him gaining a fair few caps as a Munster regular. But it remains to be seen if he has the quality to become a real mainstay of the team or will be someone that acts as a stopgap until Munster develop/sign someone of a higher calibre. At the moment, ML regular should be his aim for next season. If he achieves that, he'll have made big strides from this season.

wixfjord · 10-06-2011 01:22PM

Riskymove wrote: »

yes, they did, especially after the HC semifinal (he came off the bench)

Now that is pure bollocks!

Agree on the Conway thing though, he's waaaay overhyped from what I've seen.

profitius · 10-06-2011 01:23PM

People get ahead of themselves over players alright. I think Barnes has alot going for him. Quick, defensively sound and he seems to have decent skills. Hes also an intelligent player who has helped bring the best out of Mafi.

Theres also people who knock players without thinking. I was told I'd serious man love for Donnacha Ryan a few months back because I was saying he is a very good player.

Like all the other younger players being talked up we'll only know how good somebody really is after a run of games. Some players find the step up in level hard to adjust to while other less hyped players might come good playing higher quality rugby. Next season I hope the likes of POM and Sherry for Munster and McKinley and Madigan for Leinster get a decent run of games.

Having said all that some players justify the hype. They make everything look easy.

profitius · 10-06-2011 01:31PM

GerM wrote: »

I'm as guilty as many; it's fun to try to spot the stars of the future. In reality, if 5 of the U20 side make a full professional career out of the game, in this country it will be an excellent return. The 2007 GS winning side has about 7 players making a good career out of the game. But we'll still have about 10 of the current U20 side being touted as future internationals.

I can see Jackson, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Marshall, Macken, Conway and Hanrahan all having professional careers. The forwards are all debatable although the Connacht forwards have to best chance of a professional career for obvious reasons. So I'd say there'll be at least 10 of the current U20 players who'll have pro careers. How many make it as internationals remain to be seen.

Riskymove · 10-06-2011 01:39PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Now that is pure bollocks!

why did I bother mentioning his name, I should have known what would have happened

we can go looking for posts/threads if you like (probably all locked), but I am fairly certain I can find comments along the lines of what I am talking about from that time

wixfjord · 10-06-2011 01:40PM

profitius wrote: »

I can see Jackson, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Marshall, Macken, Conway and Hanrahan all having professional careers. The forwards are all debatable although the Connacht forwards have to best chance of a professional career for obvious reasons. So I'd say there'll be at least 10 of the current U20 players who'll have pro careers. How many make it as internationals remain to be seen.

Jordi Murphy almost certainly too, and Annett, McKeown probably aswell.

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 01:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

you must be joking that that is a dig at Murphy? Surely Murphy is a prime example of people getting ahead of themselves over a player? That "anything can happen"? Players with promise can not deliver on that for a myriad of reasons, injury, confidence, form, other professional paths, a player overtaking them, a change in situations. I'm not being derisory to Barnes, I'm being logical and rational. Barnes has it all to prove yet, anyone saying otherwise isn't thinking.

Hyper-sensitivity to rational thought is strange imo.

EDIT: As an aside, I saw that video before, ROG tweeted it. I didn't even recognise Murphy! Himself and Tomas O'Leary having a grizzly beard competition?

Of course Barnes has it all to prove, who is saying otherwise? It's just some people think he's ready to start proving himself at HEC level. Maybe, like Deasy this year, he won't quite step up or maybe like Sherry this year, he will.

I'm surprised your so against the concept of Munster playing him in the HEC.

And on the beards, everyone knows chicks dig men with manly beards, it was true for Jesus and it's true today.

wixfjord · 10-06-2011 01:46PM

Riskymove wrote: »

why did I bother mentioning his name, I should have known what would have happened

we can go looking for posts/threads if you like (probably all locked), but I am fairly certain I can find comments along the lines of what I am talking about from that time

Well you're the one making a big thing of it!

You're saying that prior and just after the HEC Semi against Munster, people were calling for Sexton to start for Ireland?!

Iirc, it was a big surprise that Kidney called him into the Irish A squad against Scotland during the 6N that year, and he was quite poor in a few games for Leinster up to the SF.
Now after that he came on leaps and bounds, and scoring a drop goal from the halfway line in a HEC final pretty much warrants people to be calling for him to play for Ireland, but before and after the SF, nah think that's crap personally, and it's fairly far removed from Danny Barnes and Barry Murphy's scenarios.

Riskymove · 10-06-2011 01:50PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Well you're the one making a big thing of it!

No I am not, I gave an example (along with others) of people reacting to a limited spell of rugby

of course he has since shown he was up to it, but there was a real hyped reaction to that one perfromance at a time when he was not starting for Leinster

You're saying that prior to the HEC Semi against Munster, people were calling for Sexton to start for Ireland?!

No I am saying they did based on one perfromance in the HC semi

totallegend · 10-06-2011 01:51PM

GerM wrote: »

Barnes is a solid player and I think he's definitely a decent career ahead of him. I can see him gaining a fair few caps as a Munster regular. But it remains to be seen if he has the quality to become a real mainstay of the team or will be someone that acts as a stopgap until Munster develop/sign someone of a higher calibre. At the moment, ML regular should be his aim for next season. If he achieves that, he'll have made big strides from this season.

The voice of reason. After the ML semi-final this year, people were saying that Munster had finally found the right centre partnership; premature isn't the word...

Compare him to Spence who is younger than Barnes but was one of their key men in the HEC this season and you get a better picture of where we're really at. As you say, he needs to build up game time, cement his position and get exposure to more big occasions, then we can make a more informed call.

If Munster do go out and sign an overseas centre as everyone here seems to expect, then he's going to struggle to get game time, particularly if Keatley gets any sort of a run at 12.

Tomtom364 · 10-06-2011 01:54PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Well you're the one making a big thing of it!

You're saying that prior and just after the HEC Semi against Munster, people were calling for Sexton to start for Ireland?!

Iirc, it was a big surprise that Kidney called him into the Irish A squad against Scotland during the 6N that year, and he was quite poor in a few games for Leinster up to the SF.
Now after that he came on leaps and bounds, and scoring a drop goal from the halfway line in a HEC final pretty much warrants people to be calling for him to play for Ireland, but before and after the SF, nah think that's crap personally, and it's fairly far removed from Danny Barnes and Barry Murphy's scenarios.

Riskymove wrote: »

No I am not, I gave an example (along with others) of people reacting to a limited spell of rugby

of course he has since shown he was up to it, but there was a real hyped reaction to that one perfromance at a time when he was not starting for Leinster

No I am saying they did based on one perfromance in the HC semi

Lads, how bout ye agree to disagree and not drag another thread into an argument about sexton (or anything else).

Back to the thread.
Anyone hearing anything of how Flans is getting on?

10-06-2011 02:07PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Of course Barnes has it all to prove, who is saying otherwise? It's just some people think he's ready to start proving himself at HEC level. Maybe, like Deasy this year, he won't quite step up or maybe like Sherry this year, he will.

He's played 4 games. How can you possibly know enough to say this? Unless, of course, you're basing it on a belief, and not information.

This is entirely my point, people are presenting beliefs as if it is fact. E.g

"Barnes is a HEC Standard player

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm surprised your so against the concept of Munster playing him in the HEC.

Where did I say this?

I'm happy for him to play in the HEC, Munster have to back their youth, I might've said it 200 times at this stage. But I'm not sure he's up to the standard yet, quite a big difference.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And on the beards, everyone knows chicks dig men with manly beards, it was true for Jesus and it's true today.

Damn, the day after I get my first hot towel shave and all!

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 02:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He's played 4 games. How can you possibly know enough to say this? Unless, of course, you're basing it on a belief, and not information.

This is entirely my point, people are presenting beliefs as if it is fact. E.g

"Barnes is a HEC Standard player

Where did I say this?

I'm happy for him to play in the HEC, Munster have to back their youth, I might've said it 200 times at this stage. But I'm not sure he's up to the standard yet, quite a big difference.

Damn, the day after I get my first hot towel shave and all!

Well, Jones hasn't played HEC, is he ready? Don't think Murray has either but some are saying he should go to the RWC. Every player needs to start the HEC sometime, after doing well against BOD and Nacewa what more does Barnes need to do?

10-06-2011 02:23PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well, Jones hasn't played HEC, is he ready? Don't think Murray has either but some are saying he should go to the RWC. Every player needs to start the HEC sometime, after doing well against BOD and Nacewa what more does Barnes need to do?

play more.

Its simple.

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 02:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

play more.

Its simple.

The ML final was up there with HEC pool games imo, I think he's ready. Of course, hopefully he'll be everpresent in the team next season in the build up to next year's HEC. Tbf, we'll only know when he actually plays, I thought Deasy would do better this season, even if I don't rate him as a fullback.

totallegend · 10-06-2011 02:31PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well, Jones hasn't played HEC, is he ready? Don't think Murray has either but some are saying he should go to the RWC. Every player needs to start the HEC sometime, after doing well against BOD and Nacewa what more does Barnes need to do?

Emmet's point is that people here are saying he's HEC level when there is very little evidence that he is (or isn't) up to it. You're actually agreeing with each other.

Yes, he should get game time in next year's HC, then we can judge. At the moment, he's being judged on one good performance against an Ospreys team who were, at best, half-interested and a solid (not good) performance against a possibly hung-over Leinster team.

So there are three possibilities;
1) The Ospreys game is the best indicator of his true level and he's awesome, the new BOD
2) He got lucky against the Ospreys and he's actually muck
3) He's somewhere in between and he's a decent prospect who needs game time in proper, high-intensity matches.

I'm going for #3, personally.

PhatPiggins · 10-06-2011 02:34PM

Haskell in high demand

departure from Stade Français was announced yesterday, according to his manager.

Haskell discovered yesterday his time in Paris had come to an end after the French club revealed financial difficulties had forced them to trim some of the biggest names from their squad.
As well as the 26-year-old Haskell, Stade have parted company with Ollie Phillips, Hugo Southwell, Arnaud Marchois, Noel Oelschig, Juan Leguizamon and Mauro Bergamasco.
Haskell’s father and manager Jonathan insists that despite the confusing manner of his exit from Stade, there are already plenty of offers on the table.
“No decisions have been made as yet,” Jonathan Haskell said.
“He’s had expressions of interest from clubs from all over the world – Italy, Ireland, Australia – but it was only confirmed he was leaving yesterday.
“We couldn’t really say it came as a shock but it was not an ongoing process James was aware of.
“Each week they were saying ‘we want you to stay’ and offering him a contract, so it was all rather confusing, all done in a very Gallic fashion.
“All the players and everyone involved with the club said what a wonderfully committed player he was and they’re all very sad to see him go. But there was the financial impact and they’ve had to release a lot of players.”

If the bit about an Irish club is true would it be unreasonable to assume that its Munster? Leinster/Ulster don't need him and Connacht couldn't afford him.

What would peoples thoughts on Munster signing Haskell be?
Personally I'd welcome it. He's exactly what we need, big athletic carrier with good hands who can play right across the back row and is a good lineout option too. He seems to have sorted his head out since he left Wasps and has a great engine.

I know he'd miss a fair chunk of the start of next season but I can't see any other downsides.

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 02:44PM

totallegend wrote: »

Emmet's point is that people here are saying he's HEC level when there is very little evidence that he is (or isn't) up to it. You're actually agreeing with each other.

Yes, he should get game time in next year's HC, then we can judge. At the moment, he's being judged on one good performance against an Ospreys team who were, at best, half-interested and a solid (not good) performance against a possibly hung-over Leinster team.

So there are three possibilities;
1) The Ospreys game is the best indicator of his true level and he's awesome, the new BOD
2) He got lucky against the Ospreys and he's actually muck
3) He's somewhere in between and he's a decent prospect who needs game time in proper, high-intensity matches.

I'm going for #3, personally.

More than likely it's 3 alright, but HEC is the next step for him. No one's claiming he's going to make it to Irish level or anything outlandish like that.

jolley123 · 10-06-2011 02:48PM

Hang on a second. What do you mean by HC standard Emmet? There are a few rubbish players playing in the HC, and surely the players in the HC set the standard. Unless you're talking about a standard that has been set by talented players over the years.

Personally, I said Barnes is ready for HC, because I can't see how he isn't ready considering some of the poor players that are already playing in the tournament.

wixfjord · 10-06-2011 03:00PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Haskell in high demand

departure from Stade Français was announced yesterday, according to his manager.

Haskell discovered yesterday his time in Paris had come to an end after the French club revealed financial difficulties had forced them to trim some of the biggest names from their squad.
As well as the 26-year-old Haskell, Stade have parted company with Ollie Phillips, Hugo Southwell, Arnaud Marchois, Noel Oelschig, Juan Leguizamon and Mauro Bergamasco.
Haskell’s father and manager Jonathan insists that despite the confusing manner of his exit from Stade, there are already plenty of offers on the table.
“No decisions have been made as yet,” Jonathan Haskell said.
“He’s had expressions of interest from clubs from all over the world – Italy, Ireland, Australia – but it was only confirmed he was leaving yesterday.
“We couldn’t really say it came as a shock but it was not an ongoing process James was aware of.
“Each week they were saying ‘we want you to stay’ and offering him a contract, so it was all rather confusing, all done in a very Gallic fashion.
“All the players and everyone involved with the club said what a wonderfully committed player he was and they’re all very sad to see him go. But there was the financial impact and they’ve had to release a lot of players.”

If the bit about an Irish club is true would it be unreasonable to assume that its Munster? Leinster/Ulster don't need him and Connacht couldn't afford him.

What would peoples thoughts on Munster signing Haskell be?
Personally I'd welcome it. He's exactly what we need, big athletic carrier with good hands who can play right across the back row and is a good lineout option too. He seems to have sorted his head out since he left Wasps and has a great engine.

I know he'd miss a fair chunk of the start of next season but I can't see any other downsides.

Good player, and probably better than Leamy, but don't think he'd fit well into the Munster ethos for some reason. Would he also be one of the first English International players to play for Munster if it happened? Seem to remember there was a prop at one stage too was there, or am I missing someone obvious?

buck65 · 10-06-2011 03:06PM

A bit of a clown - hard to see him not going to England. I would take Leamy any day ahead of him.

PhatPiggins · 10-06-2011 03:10PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Good player, and probably better than Leamy, but don't think he'd fit well into the Munster ethos for some reason. Would he also be one of the first English International players to play for Munster if it happened? Seem to remember there was a prop at one stage too was there, or am I missing someone obvious?

Two spring to mind Andy Long who plays hooker came over on a short term deal and did ok. Gary 'larger' Connolly played a dozen or so games, fitted in very well by all accounts but was injury prone.

I think (hope) we're past the hang ups about English players in Munster.

Otacon · 10-06-2011 03:15PM

While I wouldn't mind too much if Haskell was signed, I was just hoping we would sign someone... better.

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 03:17PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Two spring to mind Andy Long who plays hooker came over on a short term deal and did ok. Gary 'larger' Connolly played a dozen or so games, fitted in very well by all accounts but was injury prone.

I think (hope) we're past the hang ups about English players in Munster.

Andy K?

If we're counting Irish qualified Englishmen then Hendo deserves a mention.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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