Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

profitius · 09-06-2011 08:22PM

Richarz wrote: »

Surely if Buckley was such a talent he wouldn't be on the bench for the under 20s?

I don't know why he isn't starting. England outmuscled Ireland easily in their last game but Buckley was one of few players who could match them. Hanrahan was the best player on the pitch that night but he is dropped for Marshall. So you'll have to ask Ruddock about those selections.

Cathal O'Flaherty can't get into the squad either. I'd like to fast forward time 4 or 5 years and see who makes it from this generation of U20s.

Amazotheamazing · 09-06-2011 08:26PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Dominic Ryan only started for the U20s last year because Brian O'Hara was injured, AFAIK. Look where Ryan is now compared to our backrows; The U20's team doesn't mean too much in the long run

As well as anything else, Ryan has two things O'Hara doesn't have. Bulk and durability. O'Hara has had an awful run with injuries.

GerM · 09-06-2011 08:45PM

profitius wrote: »

I don't know why he isn't starting. England outmuscled Ireland easily in their last game but Buckley was one of few players who could match them. Hanrahan was the best player on the pitch that night but he is dropped for Marshall. So you'll have to ask Ruddock about those selections.

Whilst I would agree entirely in relation to Buckley, Hanrahan (unfortunately for him) is behind arguably the most talented player in the entire squad in Luke Marshall. He only played against England because Marshall was playing regularly with Ulster at the time. I don't think many people ever expected him to get into the side ahead of Marshall.

profitius · 09-06-2011 08:54PM

GerM wrote: »

Whilst I would agree entirely in relation to Buckley, Hanrahan (unfortunately for him) is behind arguably the most talented player in the entire squad in Luke Marshall. He only played against England because Marshall was playing regularly with Ulster at the time. I don't think many people ever expected him to get into the side ahead of Marshall.

Yeah Marshall is very talented but Hanrahans display against England was way ahead of anything Marshall produced in the tournament. I can see the reasoning behind Marshall being there having played regularly for Ulster. Its good for Ireland to have more quality 12's coming through.

Richarz · 09-06-2011 09:01PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Dominic Ryan only started for the U20s last year because Brian O'Hara was injured, AFAIK. Look where Ryan is now compared to our backrows; The U20's team doesn't mean too much in the long run

Thats weird because Dominic Ryan was starting for the Under 20s the year before that when O'Hara was nowhere to be seen. I think your sources are wrong there, captain. Has there ever been a player who didnt start for the under 20s/21s (who was actually playing pro rugby at the time) that went on to be a major player? I can't think of one.

Richarz · 09-06-2011 09:03PM

profitius wrote: »

I don't know why he isn't starting. England outmuscled Ireland easily in their last game but Buckley was one of few players who could match them. Hanrahan was the best player on the pitch that night but he is dropped for Marshall. So you'll have to ask Ruddock about those selections.

Cathal O'Flaherty can't get into the squad either. I'd like to fast forward time 4 or 5 years and see who makes it from this generation of U20s.

Perhaps because Jordi Murphy is prob the best U20 backrower and is considered substantially better than Buckley.
Marshall has been getting regular gametime for Ulster and playing well whereas Hanahran has not even started a game nor gotten any substantial gametime and looks ordinary despite the hype.

Jordi and Marshall are much better than Buckley and JJ

09-06-2011 09:12PM

profitius wrote: »

Yeah Marshall is very talented but Hanrahans display against England was way ahead of anything Marshall produced in the tournament.

I can't agree with you there, and even if I could, Hanrahan's "one time" isn't even a debatable reason to include him when compared to Marshall's consistency.

Every player we've ever seen play has had their days. It's the guys who can do it every week that a team need though.

Marshall hasn't put a foot wrong since opening up the game repeatedly in the initial game in the new Lansdowne Road.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 09-06-2011 09:17PM

Hanrahan has another year at U20 and could still make a big break he is still young for U20. At this moment in time I would say that Marshall should be ahead of him.

GerM · 09-06-2011 09:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Marshall hasn't put a foot wrong since opening up the game repeatedly in the initial game in the new Lansdowne Road.

First time I saw him play that day and he was on fire. Absolutely tore the opposition apart. Everyone came away from that game wanting to know who the hell the 12 for Leinster/Ulster was. Jackson wasn't exactly too shabby at 10 either but Marshall was simply on another level to anything else on the field.

GerM · 09-06-2011 09:20PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Dominic Ryan only started for the U20s last year because Brian O'Hara was injured, AFAIK. Look where Ryan is now compared to our backrows; The U20's team doesn't mean too much in the long run

Bit off the mark, CB. Both were starting in 2009 in the WC for the U20 side wit Ryan even playing at lock to accommodate Ruddock and O'Hara as flankers. O'Hara was out of the reckoning for the 2010 6N due to injury. When they were both fit again in the JWC O'Hara slipped down the pecking order and benched for most of the tournament with Ruddock and Ryan playing as the flankers and Paddy Butler cementing a spot in the back row. Was a tough break for BOH but Butler played superbly and earned a lot of attention through his performances with the U20 side which led to him being fast tracked into the senior Munster squad.

profitius · 09-06-2011 09:25PM

Richarz wrote: »

Perhaps because Jordi Murphy is prob the best U20 backrower and is considered substantially better than Buckley.
Marshall has been getting regular gametime for Ulster and playing well whereas Hanahran has not even started a game nor gotten any substantial gametime and looks ordinary despite the hype.

Jordi and Marshall are much better than Buckley and JJ

Time will tell. They're young yet so nobody really knows.

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't agree with you there, and even if I could, Hanrahan's "one time" isn't even a debatable reason to include him when compared to Marshall's consistency.

Every player we've ever seen play has had their days. It's the guys who can do it every week that a team need though.

Marshall hasn't put a foot wrong since opening up the game repeatedly in the initial game in the new Lansdowne Road.

Marshall looked real class in that opening game of the Aviva but in that opening game in the Aviva Marshall was playing against Munster/Connacht and with a team who were dominating the opposition. Hanrahan played against England and was playing for a team that was being dominated and still played brilliantly.

No doubt Hanrahans performance was the best of Irelands U20 tournament in my eyes. Nothing to do with him being from Munster.

roycon · 09-06-2011 09:27PM

ohara and dominic ryan both played for ireland u20s two years in a row. in the first year the main starting backrow was ruddock,ryan and omahony who are probably a magners league standard back row and in the 2nd year it was ruddock,ryan and paddy butler. if you couldnt get in either of those two it hardly means youre a bad player. oharas direct competition was ruddock and ryan and their selections have since been vindicated

there are arent a lot of munster players in the team because it just happens not to be a great year. although munster always underepresent at underage level compared to the other provinces. the balance is alway redressed by the time players get to senior rugby.theres nowhere near the drop off in players in munster that there is in ulster and leinster. schools rugby is nowhere near as big in munster but munster have in the last 10 years had the strongest youths teams although leinster have improved alot recently(sean obrien for example). i dont think they should include players who are worse just because theyre from munster. cant be good to have a quota. southern hemisphere teams do have u21 international still though and i dont think there would be any harm to have 1 or 2 of these a year. i reckon there'd probably be a few more munster players in then. because there naturally better though not because of keeping a balance from each province

Cpt_Blackbeard · 09-06-2011 09:43PM

Richarz wrote: »

Has there ever been a player who didnt start for the under 20s/21s (who was actually playing pro rugby at the time) that went on to be a major player? I can't think of one.

Considering that this is the Munster Thread; Danny Barnes and Mike Sherry were both uncapped/on the edge of the squad for the U20's afaik. Sherry is now a better player than Varley in most people's (besides the management's) eyes and should be Munster's 2 next year, if Flannery's injury issues continue. Barnes showed against Leinster in the ML final, that he is good enough to play in a HC-standard match.

I'm not sure if either of them were playing pro-rugby at the time though, not many 18/19 year old's get pro contracts.

09-06-2011 09:44PM

Barnes had a poor ML final Blackbeard, widely acknowledged. He's quite a distance from HEC standard. He'll get there I reckon, but no need to jump the gun yet.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 09-06-2011 09:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Barnes had a poor ML final Blackbeard, widely acknowledged. He's quite a distance from HEC standard. He'll get there I reckon, but no need to jump the gun yet.

I wouldn't agree that he was poor. He missed one tackle and slipped for another, but considering who he was up against, he was solid. I didn't say he was HC-standard, merely pointed out that he wasn't found wanting in a match of HC-intensity.

Richarz · 09-06-2011 10:02PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering that this is the Munster Thread; Danny Barnes and Mike Sherry were both uncapped/on the edge of the squad for the U20's afaik. Sherry is now a better player than Varley in most people's (besides the management's) eyes and should be Munster's 2 next year, if Flannery's injury issues continue. Barnes showed against Leinster in the ML final, that he is good enough to play in a HC-standard match.

I'm not sure if either of them were playing pro-rugby at the time though, not many 18/19 year old's get pro contracts.

Sherry is capped for Ireland U20 actually. Also Barnes was shown up against Leinster and caught out a number of times. Understandable considering his age, experience and the opposition but to say that he is good enough to play a HC-standard match on the back of that performance is ridiculous, if anything that game showed that he is not ready to play a HC standard game. He'll get there with time but hes certainly not there now.

jolley123 · 09-06-2011 10:07PM

I think Barnes is ready for HC cup rugby. HC final? no, but HC rugby yes.

PhatPiggins · 09-06-2011 10:19PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that he was poor. He missed one tackle and slipped for another, but considering who he was up against, he was solid. I didn't say he was HC-standard, merely pointed out that he wasn't found wanting in a match of HC-intensity.

This is why the rest of the country takes the piss out of Munster fans everytime we have a new backline player on the scene. He got a 6/10 in all the papers and that was being generous, if he'd been on the losing team it would have been a 4.

He's got talent but he's only put in one really good performance to date. I'd like to see Munster sign a world class 13 and have Barnes play 10 or so games next season.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 09-06-2011 10:56PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

This is why the rest of the country takes the piss out of Munster fans everytime we have a new backline player on the scene. He got a 6/10 in all the papers and that was being generous, if he'd been on the losing team it would have been a 4.

He's got talent but he's only put in one really good performance to date. I'd like to see Munster sign a world class 13 and have Barnes play 10 or so games next season.

Do explain where his performance against the best team in the NH -coming head-to-head against Brian O'Driscoll and not being made a fool out of - is anything but solid?

He has shown that he can survive against the toughest opposition in a high intensity match. I never hyped him as a future world-beater/Lion/International, so you point is completely baseless and made on nothing but assumptions.

Hoping that a talented youngster - who has the potential to be a good HC-level centre - will get ~10 games in a WC season, is straight out of the EOS guide to player development. He is up against Murphy/Zebo/Hurley/Deasy for a place on the HC bench and Mafi/TBA/Murphy/Gleeson for a place in the ML team, he should get plenty of game-time next year.

Teferi · 09-06-2011 11:27PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Do explain where his performance against the best team in the NH -coming head-to-head against an injured Brian O'Driscoll and not being made a fool out of - is anything but solid?

Don't forget that now.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 10-06-2011 12:15AM

Teferi wrote: »

Don't forget that now.

He played the HEC at around 60% I'd say he was 90%+ for the ML final. Its not like he was crippled.

Leroy Lita · 10-06-2011 12:36AM

ormond lad wrote: »

from borrisokane played youths rugby with nenagh, went to UCC, has started on their AIL team in 2nd row for last few years
very smart(8 A1s in Leaving) but could be going abroad to do a masters if he doesnt get something out of the rugby
Not sure why he is even been looked as even if POC, DOC, MOD and Ryan went to the RWC, we could still play in 2nd row Nagle, Holland, Foley and Hayes who afaik all got ML time this season.

dont mean to be petty or anything, but he is actually from Shannon Rovers. not Borrisokane. not a bad hurler either.

ormond lad · 10-06-2011 12:46AM

ormond lad wrote: »

from borrisokane played youths rugby with nenagh, went to UCC, has started on their AIL team in 2nd row for last few years
QUOTE]

Leroy Lita wrote: »

dont mean to be petty or anything, but he is actually from Shannon Rovers. not Borrisokane. not a bad hurler either.

I know he's from shannon rovers, played GAA with george hannigan(tipp senior footballer) who is a couple of years older than him. Played against him in a hurling game or two when younger, he plays with a bit with rovers on their intermediate hurling team and is a former tipp minor hurler

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 02:47AM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

This is why the rest of the country takes the piss out of Munster fans everytime we have a new backline player on the scene. He got a 6/10 in all the papers and that was being generous, if he'd been on the losing team it would have been a 4.

He's got talent but he's only put in one really good performance to date. I'd like to see Munster sign a world class 13 and have Barnes play 10 or so games next season.

While Barnes is very callow, I thought he was quite good in the ML final. People say he missed an obvious tackle but you have to figure that only highlights how few tackles he did fall off. He was up against a fully international backline in his second ever big game. Believe me, if Barnes had been ordinary or poor, Leinster are a good enough team to exploit it.

Frankly, I don't give much credence to what papers say in their ratings, the fact that Munster held Leinster tryless gives a fuller picture. I'm not sure he's ready to set the world alight but I'd say he's ready to hold his own.

buck65 · 10-06-2011 07:44AM

My overiding memory of Barnes from the ML final was that splendid turnover he made early in the game. I watched that game twice since and tbh he doesn't stand out as a guy who had a bad game. Maybe I'm missing something.
He was awesome against the Ospreys and he did well against Connacht ( I think) as well. Good tackler, strong in contact, runs nice angles. Definitely worth exposing to HCup rugby.

Tomtom364 · 10-06-2011 08:03AM

Barnes is very promising.
Strong too, I remember a moment he blew Macfadden out of his way in the ML final while needing two other Leinster players to come in to take him down.

very very promising.

10-06-2011 09:10AM

As was Barry Murphy.

Put the brakes on lads, sometimes it feels like the life of Brian here, anyone that shows any promise whatsoever is declared as a saviour of the team. Earls actually suffered from it, as he was shoehorned into a position that didn't suit him.

If your brother told you his son would be a world beater because he could kick a ball aged 12 months, would you think he was being sane or rational?

It is VERY early days to be saying Barnes is or isn't going to be good, the problem is that every single time anyone has a good game, they are praised and hyped and talked up to a ridiculous extent.

Chill out on the tabloid stuff.

buck65 · 10-06-2011 10:50AM

BARNES IN DODGY SHEEP TRADING DEAL

Link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8162831664328839596#

Amazotheamazing · 10-06-2011 11:08AM

Deleted User wrote: »

As was Barry Murphy.

Put the brakes on lads, sometimes it feels like the life of Brian here, anyone that shows any promise whatsoever is declared as a saviour of the team. Earls actually suffered from it, as he was shoehorned into a position that didn't suit him.

If your brother told you his son would be a world beater because he could kick a ball aged 12 months, would you think he was being sane or rational?

It is VERY early days to be saying Barnes is or isn't going to be good, the problem is that every single time anyone has a good game, they are praised and hyped and talked up to a ridiculous extent.

Chill out on the tabloid stuff.

Who's hyping to that extent, all anyone said was he was good enough for HEC rugby, if you think that's hype you must be missing the hype we've got going for Murray and POM.

Anyhow, think that was needless dig at Murphy. You have to remember Murphy spent virtually his entire career injured. The years before the 2006 season were blighted by injury too, ever since schools really. However, when he was fit he always showed his natural try scoring instincts that can't be coached imo. Just a lovely player to watch. Hell of a singer too, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOgr9amtkeU

Watch out for a surprisingly camera shy Felix Jones in that video too...

DDC1990 · 10-06-2011 11:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Barnes had a poor ML final Blackbeard, widely acknowledged. He's quite a distance from HEC standard. He'll get there I reckon, but no need to jump the gun yet.

Barnes had a solid ML Final. He barely played in the ML, due to an injury, and Munster won every game he participated in (irrelivent I know). He scored the 2 tries that beat the Ospreys, and Broke even in a midfield battle agains BOD and McFadden (both World Cup prospects at least). He made some super tackles, and turned ball over. He wont be the first or last guy to miss a tackle on BOD or Nacewa (the only 2 he missed in the game).

Don't know how you can say he's quite a distance from HEC standard after bettering McFadden, who played for Leinster in the HEC???
He has played well in he few games, and has a ML medel in his arse pocket. Hardly a bad ML.

I agree with you that he'll get there, but a lot sooner then you think.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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