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Implications of Bin Laden's death?

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Comments

  • #242
    Medu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Medu


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    I don't many people are annoyed that Bin Laden was actually killed. People are annoyed at the manner in which it was done - that the US President decided he should be killed, and so he was killed. I think most people who disagree with this killing would be happy if Bin Laden was caught and put in front of a court, convicted of murder and then executed. That would conform to the commonly held notion of equality before the law and due process.

    If the US President decides Julian Assange should be killed for treason against America, will the supporters of the Bin Laden killing be supporting the Navy Seals parachuting into Assange's residence? If we deny Osama Bin Laden equality before the law, why not anyone else?

    I can assure you that many lefty do-gooders are upset that Bin Laden was shot and killed. And if he was captured and tried they would complain that the trial wasn't open and fair and then they would cry that nobody should be executed. And if he sent to Guantanamo Bay they would moan about that as well.

    I think people have enough sense to be able to distinguish between Bin Laden and Assange(who, afaik, isn't American so I am not sure how he can be done for treason).


  • #243
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    I think it was put best yesterday by a member of one of the European courts of justice....he expressed the opinion that it would have been better to reduce and show Osama for what he really was. That putting him in a courtroom, allowing him to expose himself through insane hate-filled rambling and lying in a witness box would have shown everyone what he truly was - a bitter, twisted, slightly mad old man - and "reduced" him from the status of a great leader in the eyes of his followers. (That's the gist of his statement, not my words). Instead they've gone and made a fecking martyr from him, photos or no photos.

    Regardless of how it happened, a lot of Americans are certainly happier with his death, than his arrest. I'm aware this is somewhat of a generalisation, but that's the impression I'm getting from them. Even the fact that there's contradicting statements coming out every day as to what happens suggests that all was not what it seemed.

    I'm fairly convinced he's dead, mind you....just because it would be of absolutely no benefit whatsoever to the US administration to announce otherwise. But then I'm simple that way;)


  • #244
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    dan_d wrote: »
    I think it was put best yesterday by a member of one of the European courts of justice....he expressed the opinion that it would have been better to reduce and show Osama for what he really was. That putting him in a courtroom, allowing him to expose himself through insane hate-filled rambling and lying in a witness box would have shown everyone what he truly was - a bitter, twisted, slightly mad old man - and "reduced" him from the status of a great leader in the eyes of his followers. (That's the gist of his statement, not my words). Instead they've gone and made a fecking martyr from him, photos or no photos.

    Regardless of how it happened, a lot of Americans are certainly happier with his death, than his arrest. I'm aware this is somewhat of a generalisation, but that's the impression I'm getting from them. Even the fact that there's contradicting statements coming out every day as to what happens suggests that all was not what it seemed.

    I'm fairly convinced he's dead, mind you....just because it would be of absolutely no benefit whatsoever to the US administration to announce otherwise. But then I'm simple that way;)

    Actually, prob the opposite - he was a very charismatic, intelligent, likeable man - he just had a warped twisted ideology

    The photos issue is too frustrating

    Yes an early xmas for all the conspiracy theorists

    but release the ****ing pictures already - I am sorry, but with a dark muddy history of CIA, propaganda, and fake WMD - the world needs proof, not just to satify curiousity but quite seriously to deal with the extremist mentality that has latched onto the conspiracy theory and will have more serious implications in countries like Pakistan, etc

    There are no conspiracy theories about Uday and Qusay Hussein, end of.


  • #245
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    The photos issue is too frustrating

    Yes an early xmas for all the conspiracy theorists

    but release the ****ing pictures already - I am sorry, but with a dark muddy history of CIA, propaganda, and fake WMD - the world needs proof, not just to satify curiousity but quite seriously to deal with the extremist mentality that has latched onto the conspiracy theory and will have more serious implications in countries like Pakistan, etc

    There are no conspiracy theories about Uday and Qusay Hussein, end of.

    Again, we do not need to reduce ourselves to the lowest common denominator. The photos of the Husseins were macabre in the extreme, gloating, horrific, etc etc

    That the US may ultimately need to publish proof is yet to be determined. But I for one appreciate the fact that they are trying to change the rules, and not immediately publishing those photos.

    Western democracies do not generally publish gloating photos of deceased individuals, the US does no publish photos of those it has executed.

    The Bush administration's departure from this involved a lowering of their standards to equate with those of their adversary. You do that, you undermine your moral high ground, and to some extent your adversary wins.

    You surrender your moral high ground, and you risk creating martyrs.

    The photos may yet be published, but I will not relish their publication, and I despair at the blood lust demanding their publication. A blood lust more fitting a terrorist organization than a civilized democracy.


  • #246
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    But I for one appreciate the fact that they are trying to change the rules, and not immediately publishing those photos.

    Their track record of "changing of rules" (to suit themselves) is the problem, not the solution.
    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    A blood lust more fitting a terrorist organization than a civilized democracy.

    Prejudicial phrasing. We no longer believe the US Administration for very valid reasons, and we want proof.

    Seeing the pics, analysing them to ensure they're not fakes, and accepting proof is completely different to gloating over them.


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  • #247
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Their track record of "changing of rules" (to suit themselves) is the problem, not the solution.

    Oh I agree, but an attempt to row back into line with international norms is a good thing. Extra-judicial execution is not.


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Prejudicial phrasing. We no longer believe the US Administration for very valid reasons, and we want proof.

    Seeing the pics, analysing them to ensure they're not fakes, and accepting proof is completely different to gloating over them.

    When we were told that Slobodan Milošević died did we demand to see photos?

    When we were told that Laurent Kabila died did we demand to see photos?

    When we were told that Idi Amin died did we demand to see photos?

    The rules were changed by the Bush administration, for the worse. I personally favor seeing the US row back to accepting International norms, and (hopefully) later, International Law.


  • #248
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    dan_d wrote: »
    I think it was put best yesterday by a member of one of the European courts of justice....he expressed the opinion that it would have been better to reduce and show Osama for what he really was. That putting him in a courtroom, allowing him to expose himself through insane hate-filled rambling and lying in a witness box would have shown everyone what he truly was - a bitter, twisted, slightly mad old man - and "reduced" him from the status of a great leader in the eyes of his followers.


    They never wanted to put him on trial. They were offered that by the taliban before the war.

    You can't put a former CIA asset like OBL on trial because then you have to listen to an articulate calm person talking about his motivations which in large part would have been US foreign policy in the Mid East.

    The 9/11 commission didn't even address the motivations to any acceptable standard why would they let OBL do it in front of a world audience?

    Washington couldn't have that.


  • #249
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    but release the ****ing pictures already - I am sorry, but with a dark muddy history of CIA, propaganda, and fake WMD - the world needs proof, not just to satify curiousity but quite seriously to deal with the extremist mentality that has latched onto the conspiracy theory and will have more serious implications in countries like Pakistan, etc

    There are no conspiracy theories about Uday and Qusay Hussein, end of.


    No they released images of Che Guevara who tortured and murdered people starting wars in several countries. CIA killed him and were slated for showing his dead body like a trophy.

    Now people wear this murderers face on t shirts and think they are cool


  • #250
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Chuck Stone wrote: »

    You can't put a former CIA asset like OBL on trial because then you have to listen to an articulate calm person talking about his motivations which in large part would have been US foreign policy in the Mid East.

    The 9/11 commission didn't even address the motivations to any acceptable standard why would they let OBL do it in front of a world audience?

    Washington couldn't have that.

    Motivations?? Are you somehow implying that his motivations were somehow even vaguely justifiable??


  • #251
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,096 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Laminations wrote: »
    So if America were 'lying' who told us the truth? The Americans have revised the sequence of events etc as info has come in. Liars usually aren't in the business of holding up their hands with new updates the very next day. They simply got info wrong.

    Could it be they were savvy enough to realise that the truth has a habit of leaking out anyway? We saw this with the death of Tillman and the 'rescue' of Jessica Lynch. It might be as innocent as you say, but then again it may be not.


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  • #252
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,096 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    djpbarry wrote: »
    In the past, yes, the ISI quite possibly sponsored the Taliban to further Pakistan’s interests in Afghanistan, as indeed did the US. Now however, the Taliban is as much Pakistan’s enemy as anyone else’s.

    I don't think it's quite as a clear cut as you make out, because action has not been taken by the Pakistani military against Haqqani and his network, this is despite considerable pressure by America to do so. Haqqani is said to be very close to the ISI. He was also a hero of the resistance against the Soviet occupation. When a US drone hit his hideout some time back, he conveniently was not there. This would indicate he had advance warning of the strike
    Also, when you consider the fact Mullah Omar has not been found up to now, it would seem to me the ISI, at least up until recently, were playing both sides. So clearly there has been division between the aims of the political establishment in Pakistan and the ISI. This however may have changed with the fallout from the death of Bin Laden.


  • #253
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Fairness is subjective, but we're not talking about the laws themselves, we're talking about the context in which those laws operate. And I think it is easier to get a broad consensus on how one can make that context fair, subjective though it be.

    I don't many people are annoyed that Bin Laden was actually killed. People are annoyed at the manner in which it was done - that the US President decided he should be killed, and so he was killed. I think most people who disagree with this killing would be happy if Bin Laden was caught and put in front of a court, convicted of murder and then executed. That would conform to the commonly held notion of equality before the law and due process.

    If the US President decides Julian Assange should be killed for treason against America, will the supporters of the Bin Laden killing be supporting the Navy Seals parachuting into Assange's residence? If we deny Osama Bin Laden equality before the law, why not anyone else?


    ...do please explain to me how you think there is an equivalence between Julian Assange and his actions, his supporters and their possible reaction to his captivity, and Bin Laden and his.


  • #254
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    Oh I agree, but an attempt to row back into line with international norms is a good thing. Extra-judicial execution is not.

    As I said I'll accept that interpretation when it's the approach used at a time that doesn't suit them. I don't believe that it indicates a change of heart, more a difference of the benefits.
    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    When we were told that Slobodan Milošević died did we demand to see photos?

    When we were told that Laurent Kabila died did we demand to see photos?

    When we were told that Idi Amin died did we demand to see photos?

    The rules were changed by the Bush administration, for the worse. I personally favor seeing the US row back to accepting International norms, and (hopefully) later, International Law.

    You mention 3 that "died".......your phrasing. Do I need to look up whether those 3 were assasinated in order to check if they're comparable?

    And how many of those were after the lies that make us doubt the U.S. were exposed?


  • #255
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Fairness is subjective, but we're not talking about the laws themselves, we're talking about the context in which those laws operate. And I think it is easier to get a broad consensus on how one can make that context fair, subjective though it be.

    I don't many people are annoyed that Bin Laden was actually killed. People are annoyed at the manner in which it was done - that the US President decided he should be killed, and so he was killed. I think most people who disagree with this killing would be happy if Bin Laden was caught and put in front of a court, convicted of murder and then executed. That would conform to the commonly held notion of equality before the law and due process.

    If the US President decides Julian Assange should be killed for treason against America, will the supporters of the Bin Laden killing be supporting the Navy Seals parachuting into Assange's residence? If we deny Osama Bin Laden equality before the law, why not anyone else?

    Well you have a point that justice comes in all shapes and sizes. If you want to go eye for an eye or 'live by the sword, die by the sword' Bin Laden should have been beheaded live on the internet.

    Comparing Assange to Bin Laden is a bit ridiculous. Julian Assange is not American, he cant be tried for treason, nor is he a murdered or a terrorist.

    As for the photos, Im sure they will get leaked eventually, but even so what credibility to photos have these days anyway, and the body is buried at sea, gving the powers that be plenty of time to construct their story. However, this will feed the conspiracy theorists to no end and also doesnt do much to help the grieving process of the victims.


  • #256
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Laminations wrote: »
    Modern news media doesn't wait.

    They might not wait, but if they've not been told anything to put out, then it's up to them to play commercial breaks until they have something to work with.

    The changes in the story are not unexpected. I have first-hand-experience of the effect, with participants of a small firefight having recollections of the event the following day which were so different that they were mutually exclusive. Let alone the reports that went out on the radio at the time.

    I'm really getting quite fed up of government spokesmen either speaking outside of their lane in the interests of trying to please the cameras pointing at them, speculating when they should not be, or putting out information before it's confirmed, it's happened several times in the past and will doubtless happen again in the future.

    Let the debriefs happen thoroughly and correctly. If it takes over a day before it happens (and it will probably take one or two) then so be it. Then put out your press briefing as to the 'How'. This isn't hard.

    NTM


  • #257
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Medu wrote: »
    I think people have enough sense to be able to distinguish between Bin Laden and Assange(who, afaik, isn't American so I am not sure how he can be done for treason).
    Nodin wrote: »
    ...do please explain to me how you think there is an equivalence between Julian Assange and his actions, his supporters and their possible reaction to his captivity, and Bin Laden and his.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Comparing Assange to Bin Laden is a bit ridiculous. Julian Assange is not American, he cant be tried for treason, nor is he a murdered or a terrorist.

    In your (and my) opinion the comparison is ridiculous. But the point is that, on this issue, you have allowed the question of whether or not to murder a man be decided on the basis on some majority opinion or feeling. Most people believed Osama Bin Laden deserved to die, and so (in your opinion) the assassination is justified. My point is that it is conceivable that a situation will arise under which a majority of some country feels the likes of Assange deserves to die. And you will have no counterargument to a subsequent assassination attempt because the government would merely be doing in that situation what they have done here: following the "gut feeling" of the people. You might disagree with such an assassination, but they would still be operating under the same judicial and moral system you are advocating here.

    The only way you can avoid such a situation is to universally apply due process and equality before the law. Why? Because those principles aren't based on individual cases, but provide a context in which the cases operate. By generalising the system we lessen the ability of public opinion to mandate murders.


  • #258
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    In your (and my) opinion the comparison is ridiculous. But the point is that, on this issue, you have allowed the question of whether or not to murder a man be decided on the basis on some majority opinion or feeling..


    emmmm....no, I haven't.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72026311&postcount=178


  • #259
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Nodin wrote: »
    emmmm....no, I haven't.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72026311&postcount=178

    Fair enough. I'm up the walls with college exams at the moment and don't have time to be reading threads in full - sorry about that.


  • #260
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Fair enough. I'm up the walls with college exams at the moment and don't have time to be reading threads in full - sorry about that.


    ...wasn't actually in this thread, it was just I hadn't indicated thoughts here one way or another.

    On boards while doing Exams? Tut tut.


  • #261
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Nodin wrote: »
    emmmm....no, I haven't.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72026311&postcount=178

    I haven't either. Bin Laden declared war on the US. Wartime rules are different to ordinary civilians in ordinary non warfare.

    It has nothing to do with mob sentiment.


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  • #262
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    im watching question time uk right now and while douglas murray ( whoom i actually often like ) is as usual insufferable , i feel sorry for him having to listen to a former british army general like paddy ashdown , ashdown sounds like vincent browne pontificating about the assasination of bin laden , ashdowns colleagues assinated many a ( terrorists ) during the campaign againat the IRA , what with thier on and off ,shoot to kill policy


  • #263
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    jank wrote: »
    Christ, where do I start with this.

    First of, a non-military trial? There is no way in hell that would have happened. Get your head out of the sand, this is the real world. If you are foolish enough to believe that OBL would have gotten a trial in a civilian court in say NY or Washington then it shows your utter naivety here.
    My point was it would bode better for the U.S., it's not like I thought he'd get off with community service:rolleyes:
    Assasination by a supposed champion of justice is the bull**** here.
    jank wrote: »
    As over the top the celebrations were there is nothing "exactly" similar to this incident and the destruction of the twin towers. Here a mass murderer responsible for the death of countless tens of thousands mostly Muslim people was killed. 9/11 almost 3,000 people died as they sat in their offices earning their crust for themselves and their families. Your comment is actually disgraceful when describing it as "exactly the same"!.
    Missing the point. Footage of people celebrating death is the point. Bad taste. 'We're number one!' from the mouths of bufoons who seemingly hold their country and it's policies to some kind of high standard over every other country in the world.
    If you can't or won't view this impartially, that's your issue.
    jank wrote: »
    Also, since when is Al Queda a "generic political party"!!
    I believe that was my point. Hence, losing a supposed leader makes no difference, but don't let me interrupt the rant.
    jank wrote: »
    Your last line is the most relevant of your post but its still wrong!

    A lot has changed because of this. It marks the end of Al Qaeda as we know it. Yes there are still nut cases out there, yes there will still be bombings, shootings and the like but as a movement and ideology it is going the way of the dinosaurs. All you have to do is see what is going on in Syria and Egypt to see that radical Islam has been utterly rejected by the main populous as liberal freedoms and democracy is something they crave not some Islamic caliphate where an extreme version of sharia law is some sort of Islamic paradise where a few Imams can perform a circle jerk.
    Even if this is so, OBL's death won't make much odds, if only to possibly spark retaliation.


  • #264
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Medu wrote: »
    I can assure you that many lefty do-gooders are upset that Bin Laden was shot and killed. And if he was captured and tried they would complain that the trial wasn't open and fair and then they would cry that nobody should be executed. And if he sent to Guantanamo Bay they would moan about that as well.
    So are you a right wing do-badder?

    Expecting and wanting justice to be carried out is what most progressive civil peoples strive towards.
    Wanting justice to be done or in the least believeing justice being seen to be done, to in part calm any potential backlash, is logical and sensible.

    It seems the other side of the 'war on terror' coin is a country with resources like the U.S. doing what the hell it likes in anyones backyard in the name of 'justice' Team America style.


  • #265
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Assasination by a supposed champion of justice is the bull**** here.

    I don't think he was viewed as much as a criminal as the enemy by the US. You bring criminals to trial. You kill the enemy.
    Missing the point. Footage of people celebrating death is the point. Bad taste.

    Perhaps. But it's also something worth celebrating in this case.
    (When I attend a funeral, doesn't the priest say something about it really being a celebration? I could have sworn I've heard them say that sort of thing before)
    'We're number one!' from the mouths of bufoons who seemingly hold their country and it's policies to some kind of high standard over every other country in the world.

    Would any other country in the world have been capable of doing that job? The Irish intelligence service, maybe, could have found him, and the Army Ranger Wing flown in on the Air Corps' stealth helicopters* to raid the compound?

    The message is different here to what you think it should be. It's "You piss us off, and we'll do everything in our not inconsiderable power to make you pay, and we won't be nice about it" As Roosevelt said, 'walk softly, but carry a big stick'. Sometimes the stick needs to get used.

    NTM

    *They must be just as good as the American ones: Nobody knew the Americans had them, and nobody's seen one of the Irish ones either.


  • #266
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Bin Laden 'planned new US attack'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13304809


    What a crock of s*it. We all came down in the last shower of rain. Still it will keep the US public in fear and under the thumb, and the war mongers aroused. Any new military /defence budgets will be passed without question and Homeland security and the rest will be beefed up. Fortress USA will continue. What a way to live. Us here in the rest of the world live with the threat ( indeed have lived as well in the past IRA and the rest) of al-qaeda but do we go crazy about it, no. I am very disappointed with Obama and he has continued on where Bush left off, I really thought he was a better
    person.


  • #267
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    *They must be just as good as the American ones: Nobody knew the Americans had them, and nobody's seen one of the Irish ones either.

    A bit like Saddam's WMDs, then ? :rolleyes:


  • #268
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Bin Laden 'planned new US attack'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13304809


    What a crock of s*it. We all came down in the last shower of rain. Still it will keep the US public in fear and under the thumb, and the war mongers aroused. Any new military /defence budgets will be passed without question and Homeland security and the rest will be beefed up. Fortress USA will continue. What a way to live. Us here in the rest of the world live with the threat ( indeed have lived as well in the past IRA and the rest) of al-qaeda but do we go crazy about it, no. I am very disappointed with Obama and he has continued on where Bush left off, I really thought he was a better
    person.

    Rather misses the point. Osama was still the same Osama, and therein lies the problem. There are certain circumstances in war where prisoners aren't taken. Its a subject oft evaded, because nobody wants to be seen to lose the 'moral high ground' but it happens.

    A captive Bin Laden is unusual in this context, in that its not the difficulty of where to hold him thats the problem, but the activities of his various followers/supporters. To get him out, it wouldn't be attacks on military personnell, it would be hostage taking of civillians, (and not just Americans either, I might add).

    And thats the 'sane' ones. 'I will rise and follow Islam' seems to be the new hobby for nutjobs all over the world, who want to either kill, or commit 'suicide by cop' and take a few people with them.


  • #269
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,096 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/bin-laden-plotted-attack-us-trains-022222947.html

    So those wanting photos should be satisfied now.


  • #270
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    nacho libre wrote: »
    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/bin-laden-plotted-attack-us-trains-022222947.html

    So those wanting photos should be satisfied now.
    The authenticity of the statement is not possible to confirm independently but it was posted on sites known to be used by the group.

    No photos and an unconfirmed statement.......I'm convinced!


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  • #271
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Nodin wrote: »

    And thats the 'sane' ones. 'I will rise and follow Islam' seems to be the new hobby for nutjobs all over the world, who want to either kill, or commit 'suicide by cop' and take a few people with them.

    Alternatively, join the US forces and travel the world and kill/maim/destroy and do not even tally the kills as they are the enemy.


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