Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Leroy Lita · 03-05-2011 10:28PM

is Tommy Bowe staying with Ospreys? hid hardly go to Munster in the summer?

does anyone know who there lining up for the cente posistion?

CatFromHue · 03-05-2011 10:31PM

what if the young players blooded next year turn out to be rubbish? then munster have wasted one whole season.

will the fans go to games if they know munster are going to be beaten week in week out?

thats crazy talk.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 03-05-2011 10:33PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I decided to see if I could name a team from 1-15 of players who aren't good enough for Munster and are blocking players with potential who could be HEC starters. These should be let go this offseason. I only failed because I couldn't find a poor 10 that is blocking someone younger

That said I don't think the replacement options for some of these players (the centers) are patricularly good options and I will admit that I cheated by naming some players who have already announced their retirement

Horan
Fogarty
Hayes
MOD
D Ryan
Holland
Ronan
Quinlan
Williams

B Murphy
Gleeson
Tuitipupou
Mafi
Hurley

That team is more than harsh in a lot of cases. Both MOD and Ryan good players and its up to players like Nagle and Foley to prove that they should be ahead of them. Neither Nagle or Foley will be able to make the step up until they bulk up. It is hard to encorporate them into a scrum that is already a liability when they are so light. If they bulk up over the summer, they should be given every chance to get ahead of Ryan and MOD next year though.

Fogarty is needed because of Flannery's injuries and isn't blocking any youngsters as Sherry has jumped ahead of him.

Williams is a handy player who comprehensively outplayed Luke Burgess against Australia. He again isn't blocking any youngsters as Murray has jumped ahead of him, he is somewhat young too.

B. Murphy is a extremely talented 13 who has had a terrible time with injury. Munster's back troubles wouldn't be half as bad if he was able to stay fit.

Tuitupou is a handy player but we expected too much from him and is probably a level below the type of NIQ we should be looking for. Too much is expected from Mafi too but. he is a good if somewhat headless player.

Hurley is an extremely solid player. I know that I will be slated for saying this but, he is somewhat similar to Horgan ie. a big strong winger. He could be a much better player if Munster were able to use him coming off the blindside wing. I'd much rather him in the squad than a journeyman like J.Murphy.

All that said, there is a lot of deadwood in the squad. But that doesn't mean that we get rid of every squad player we have.

Amazotheamazing · 03-05-2011 10:33PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Williams is 4th choice SH for a reason and only really blocks Murray getting more game time

compare your list to Leinster this season
Ruddock 13+6
Ryan 14+8
Madigan 6+9
McKinley 3+1
Kearney 7+4
Conway 6+2
JHW 3+10
Sheridan 2+1

Apart from JHW and D Kearney (who are 23 and 22) all of the above are 21 or younger

Williams recently went 25, Daragh Hurley is also 25, O Donnell will be 24 this month

So? Take out the backrowers and the figures aren't all that different. We all know Munster players are taking longer to get to their optimum physicality.

03-05-2011 10:37PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

what if the young players blooded next year turn out to be rubbish? then munster have wasted one whole season.

will the fans go to games if they know munster are going to be beaten week in week out?

thats crazy talk.

"Waste" is completely the wrong word here. How are you ever going to find anything out about your players if they never play.

Finding out that guys aren't good enough is very very important to a team that's trying to grow.

profitius · 03-05-2011 10:38PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

what if the young players blooded next year turn out to be rubbish? then munster have wasted one whole season.

will the fans go to games if they know munster are going to be beaten week in week out?

thats crazy talk.

It won't happen. They won't need a season to separate the wheat from the chaff.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-05-2011 10:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Nail on head bar MOD. Best 2nd row in Munster this season. Good enough to start HEC games and always pulls it out of the bag in a Munster Jersey. Personally think he's one of the most impressive limited players I've ever seen. He's bizarre, so much about him seems bad and wrong and ill fitting, but he's so ridiculously consistent and an excellent leader.

However, if you are looking forward, he is certainly filling boots that he shouldn't be. It's poor planning to have 3 second rows all in and around the same age, blocking youth from getting experience. I think he'll be used extensively during the WC if he doesn't travel, basically as team captain too.

I meant to say something about that MOD is quality, HEC starter on 15 other HEC teams but not quite up to DOC (when he bothers) and POC. Maybe not likely to win a HEC as a starter but you can't have your first 3 locks in their 30s without blocking other players developing.

I know he is staying but I think it would be better for Munster if he left or had a word and asked to step back from first team magners league action.

This was the reason MOK wasn't offered a new contract with Leinster they didn't want 3 30something locks. Word is he wanted another season but it wasn't offered

profitius · 03-05-2011 10:48PM

They also need to examine the teams they put out in closer detail. Try get the average age of the forwards as low as possible.

Against Harlequins the forwards were:
Du Preez 28
Varley 27?
Buckley 30?
MOD 32
DOC 32
Wallace 35
Leamy 29?
Coughlan 31?

Then when Munster needed someone to make an impact they sprung Horan 33 and Hayes 37 from the bench!

CatFromHue · 03-05-2011 10:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

"Waste" is completely the wrong word here. How are you ever going to find anything out about your players if they never play.

Finding out that guys aren't good enough is very very important to a team that's trying to grow.

there is a difference between never playing the younger players and disregarding the older players and results so as the younger players get game time.

we cant on one hand slate the scottish union for pulling out their international players while we plan on not putting out our best teams to blood players for the future.

if you go with consistently a u23 team in the magners you will lose. look what happened last year when cheika put out a team full of young players away to the dragons. we lost by 20 or so points.

what was learned from that? not much if you ask me.

to bring on younger players its best to put them in units (half backs, centres, back row etc) with other experienced players. then the unit will still be competitive and the younger player will learn from this competition. putting out a unit of just young players you run the risk, no matter how good they are, of them being blown away. its harder to learn in that situation.

if munster put out a youngish team consitently in the magners and say connacht have a great season. munster run the risk of not qualifying for the heineken cup.

that would be a waste of a season

03-05-2011 10:59PM

The thing is though, and I've said it more than once; I'm not calling for a youth team to be playing for Munster next season.

You're completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting my point. The longer the team is left without youth, the harder it will be to get it back on track. If another season is let pass without having young guys getting proper gametime (6+ starts, 8+ meaningful substitute appearances), then in one year's time, Munster will be even further up **** creek without a paddle!

Obviously choosing a team consisting of inexperienced players is a terrible idea. Obviously choosing a team consisting solely of players nearing the end of their career is also a bad idea.

They need to find the happy medium.

Deleted User wrote: »

Harsh as it sounds, a wholly uninspiring squad.

Truth be told, there's an awful lot of dead weight, and surplus players there. Too many average backups that aren't used no matter what. (And more importantly, aren't going to get any better or younger!)

Cut a few of these guys, push them to other clubs for better opportunities and development, and take some of the younger guys out and get them playing regularly alongside that old guard.

The team will be completely different in 5 years time, no better time to start working towards it than now.

Deleted User wrote: »

@donfers, I'm not arsed finding the post, but I reckon I posted the exact same thing 12 months ago.

It didn't matter how this season finished, the same would be true. Munster have failed to develop a squad.

The only way to rectify this is to start building a squad. I don't think that there's a whole lot to it btw;
- Cut the lads who are past it.
- Cut anyone over the age of 28 that you couldn't start in a HEC semi final next week if you needed to.
- Promote the younger lads and have them get gametime and experience alongside the established pros before it is too late.
- Bingo

A telling post and discussion was a few months ago when I unearthed a post of "Munster's up and coming" youngsters from 18months previous.

None of them had started more than 3 games for Munster in that 18 month period, yet their names are still on the "up and coming" list.

Also, re:not being so bleak that you'll have to play kids. In terms of professional rugby, a "kid" is an inexperienced player. In the next 2/3 seasons, Munster are going to lose about players with ~1000 caps between them. Who will take their slots? Guys who've played maybe 1000 minutes between them. Compare Leinster's squad and team that is being proposed to play in the ML vs Glasgow against a team of Munster's "not first choice", and see how they fare in terms of experience, gametime, and age.

CatFromHue · 03-05-2011 11:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is though, and I've said it more than once; I'm not calling for a youth team to be playing for Munster next season.

You're completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting my point. The longer the team is left without youth, the harder it will be to get it back on track. If another season is let pass without having young guys getting proper gametime (10+ starts, 5+ meaningful substitute appearances), then in one year's time, Munster will be even further up **** creek without a paddle!

i was originally repying to leroy lita's post.

wonton · 03-05-2011 11:13PM

Did zebo play much games this year? missed alot of matchs due to work but he played well enough in the matches i seen last season, I remember he was on the pretty good for the u20 international too.

Amazotheamazing · 03-05-2011 11:22PM

wonton wrote: »

Did zebo play much games this year? missed alot of matchs due to work but he played well enough in the matches i seen last season, I remember he was on the pretty good for the u20 international too.

Has gotten two or three starts, has looked decent, bit raw.

durkadurka · 03-05-2011 11:43PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

what if the young players blooded next year turn out to be rubbish? then munster have wasted one whole season.

will the fans go to games if they know munster are going to be beaten week in week out?

thats crazy talk.

Bit of denial here. Going to have to bite the bullet.

Junior · 04-05-2011 06:55AM

The problem with Munster is/was we've gone from bringing no new young players in, to needing to bring in a heap of new (young) players in a short space of time. There is no easy way to do this, the temporary way is sign some decent players on short term contracts, rotate them with the senior irish players and the youth. The drawback is that you could end up with 2 or 3 Tuitipupou's and no cohesive squad as no one gets settled game time.

The other method is sign 1 or 2 Marquee players on a longer contract (PAC won't allow this) and put the senior Irish players out to pasture as quickly as possible this season. And see what comes of.

It's a chicken/egg scenario which do you do first..

roycon · 04-05-2011 12:07PM

butler and o'mahoney should be starting more matches and doing more weights. these two lads should be key to munster in the next few years. there as good now at 21 as niall ronan and coughlan are at 30 and theyre only getting better

CIARAN_BOYLE · 04-05-2011 12:12PM

roycon wrote: »

butler and o'mahoney should be starting more matches and doing more weights. these two lads should be key to munster in the next few years. there as good now at 21 as niall ronan and coughlan are at 30 and theyre only getting better

hopefully they have a good offseason and bulk up 10-15 kilos they could make a real break through next season

irishbucsfan · 04-05-2011 12:13PM

Hopefully next year we'll see the end of young Munster players being held back.

It's a bit mad that POM, Nagle, TOD etc. played so well this season when given their chances and yet were given so few chances after that.

liam12989 · 04-05-2011 02:30PM

why dont munster sign roger wilson and downey 2 irish qualified guys.
Would munster look at neil best? he has couple irish caps. Hes a committed lad.was rated as highly as wilson goin to northampton?

buck65 · 04-05-2011 02:36PM

Best is a head the ball, Downey and Wilson are decent players but hardly much of an improvement from what we have already.

POM has been injured the past few months and is only coming back to fitness, he came on as a sub in the AIL final and played well.
Nagle has gotten a few games and proven himself as one for the future and is named in the squad.
TOD I would like to see a bit more of.

TheHighRoad · 04-05-2011 02:39PM

buck65 wrote: »

Best is a head the ball, Downey and Wilson are decent players but hardly much of an improvement from what we have already.

POM has been injured the past few months and is only coming back to fitness, he came on as a sub in the AIL final and played well.
Nagle has gotten a few games and proven himself as one for the future and is named in the squad.
TOD I would like to see a bit more of.

Downey is much better than Mafi and Wilson is so much better than Coughlan. I think you're wrong there.

bamboozle · 04-05-2011 02:43PM

liam12989 wrote: »

why dont munster sign roger wilson and downey 2 irish qualified guys.
Would munster look at neil best? he has couple irish caps. Hes a committed lad.was rated as highly as wilson goin to northampton?

it should be simple for Munster, are the lads in your academy & on development contracts good enough? if so bring through to the first team squad, if not (Holland, Gleeson etc etc) release them and focus on bringing through the next set of lads from the academy. There should be a group of younger players in the senior squad chomping at the heels of the senior players to keep them on their toes.

surely the talent is there its just a matter of giving it a chance to flourish.

irishbucsfan · 04-05-2011 02:44PM

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Downey is much better than Mafi and Wilson is so much better than Coughlan. I think you're wrong there.

Disagree with that. Mafi and Downey are about as limited as each other. Mafi is a far more aggresive defender, which is good at times, bad at times. Mafi is faster. Neither player is particularly creative (I laughed when the Sky Sports commentator asked Chris Ashton about Downey's "soft hands" in the lead-up to Northampton's try and Ashton laughed and said "I thought he could only run in straight lines")

As for Wilson, no way is he better than Coughlan. I see no evidence of that at all. Coughlan, when actually played in his rightful position, is the better player in my opinion. Coughlan is wasted at 6 too often though.

Both Downey and Wilson have the benefit of playing regularly for a coach who knows what he's doing though.

buck65 · 04-05-2011 02:45PM

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Downey is much better than Mafi and Wilson is so much better than Coughlan. I think you're wrong there.

We'll beg to differ.

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2011 02:59PM

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Downey is much better than Mafi and Wilson is so much better than Coughlan.

Oddly, only 2 years ago I was hearing commentators describe Mafi as one of the best centres in Europe. Of course he had Tipoki playing with him a lot back then.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 04-05-2011 03:04PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Oddly, only 2 years ago I was hearing commentators describe Mafi as one of the best centres in Europe. Of course he had Tipoki playing with him a lot back then.

Exactly. All Mafi needs is a creative player alongside him that will tell him what to do and he should be a brilliant player again. He has had no stability since Tipoki left and that has obviously effected him.

GerM · 04-05-2011 03:17PM

Would be of the opinion that Wilson is definitely a step up from Coughlan and I am someone that thinks Coughlan is underrated. Wilson is excellent in contact and can roll with the punches at the business end of the HEC. I don't think Coughlan is at that level. He can stand out and be excellent at ML or against the weaker teams in the HEC but I'm not sure he is of the quality to be a mainstay in a team that is challenging for the HEC. He didn't have had a sniff of being in the Munster team 2 or 3 years ago. Wilson has hit a high level in the HEC for the past 2 seasons against all comers and has been a model of consistency. I think he's very unlucky only to have a single cap for Ireland. He doesn't look out of place at all in one of the strongest packs around.

Tricky to compare Downey and Mafi when they're playing in very different teams at the moment. Downey is getting ball on a plate from a monster pack whilst Mafi is getting ball with a defence in his face. Downey, for my money, is in better form currently and is probably a more reliable option in terms of you know exactly what you're going to get with him whilst Mafi can deliver a moment of quality or a moment of idiocy.

Leroy Lita · 04-05-2011 05:19PM

jaysus christ , are Munster gona get the finger out at all and start signing a few players? Leinster have goting in about 6 lads already

GerM · 04-05-2011 05:49PM

Leroy Lita wrote: »

jaysus christ , are Munster gona get the finger out at all and start signing a few players? Leinster have goting in about 6 lads already

Currently, Munster have 44 players in their senior squad (45 listed on site but Dowling is retired). That also doesn't include the likes of Zebo, Sherry and Murray who are regularly involved in senior match day squads and will surely be on development contracts soon if they're not already. Leinster have 37 (42 listed on site but Hogan, Galarza, Newland, McCormack and Fogarty are no longer with the team). This doesn't include the likes of Ryan, McKinley and Madigan who are regularly involved in match day squads. I know they're now on development contracts but it's easier to make the comparison without the players who started the season in the academy. They've signed 6 players but will be losing about the same number (Hines, Wright, Berne, POD and Keogh for starters with a couple more unclear). Ulster only have 35 in their senior squad.

Overall, Munster are probably going to trim the squad a bit. They've a massive squad after promoting so many younger players in the last season. They've the biggest squad in the country by some distance so I don't think they'll be making big moves in the transfer market aside from signing another centre to complete their compliment of non-Irish players.

thomond2006 · 04-05-2011 06:33PM

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/4960385/Mils-Muliaina-to-say-sayonara-to-NZ

Stephen Donald continues to be linked with Ireland's Munster club where his cousin Jason Holland is backs coach.

Didn't know Holland was his cousin.

No doubt this will push along proceedings.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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