Off topic discussion about God/Islam/Questions...

Dades · 04-03-2011 09:34AM

^^ Let's try and avoid being pointlessly spikey here.

dead one · 04-03-2011 09:38AM

legspin wrote: »

If your god wants us to believe the koran he /she /it had had better come up with something more conclusive than the rantings of an illiterate <mod edit> 'prophet' <snip>.

That is what intelligence arrogance. Isn't it? Arrogance is the first wall of defense for a very insecure person

Why are geniuses usually arrogant about their intelligence?

04-03-2011 09:41AM

dead one wrote: »

Why are geniuses usually arrogant about their intelligence?

You've never met any highly intelligent people have you?

Unless you've been to mensa, they can be a bit big about it

Funny you mention arrogance and insecurity though, given an omnipotent deity who requires sole worship...

PDN · 04-03-2011 09:52AM

bluewolf wrote: »

You've never met any highly intelligent people have you?

Unless you've been to mensa, they can be a bit big about it

True that. Even the humblest genius will appear smug to an intellectual pygmy.

dead one · 04-03-2011 10:36AM

bluewolf wrote: »

You've never met any highly intelligent people have you?
Unless you've been to mensa, they can be a bit big about it

No No! They are highly intelligent but what about highly intelligent inherently arrogant people. Have you ever met them?

bluewolf wrote: »

Funny you mention arrogance and insecurity though, given an omnipotent deity who requires sole worship...

Many theists believe that the existence of mnipotent deity, of a creator of the universe, is so obvious, so just a plain fact. that, to them, an atheist is someone who still, deep inside, realizes that there is a God, but arrogantly refuses to acknowledge, at least to the outside, a being superior to himself. It’s almost as if he was in denial. Is it not arrogance or insecurity. Even Agnostic also believe there is a creator.

04-03-2011 11:44AM

dead one wrote: »

No No! They are highly intelligent but what about highly intelligent inherently arrogant people. Have you ever met them?

Many theists believe that the existence of mnipotent deity, of a creator of the universe, is so obvious, so just a plain fact. that, to them, an atheist is someone who still, deep inside, realizes that there is a God, but arrogantly refuses to acknowledge, at least to the outside, a being superior to himself. It’s almost as if he was in denial. Is it not arrogance or insecurity. Even Agnostic also believe there is a creator.

I find it amusing, as always, when theists accuse atheists of arrogance. Theists generally believe an all powerful all knowing deity created the universe and created them specifically. They believe this all powerful deity with the whole universe as a plaything, cares about them individually and even cares what they think or do. Considering how infinitely short our lifespans by comparison, it's like ants or something believing we give a damn about them.

Now I'm not saying this is beyond the realms of all possibility, not at all, but if you're going to accuse other people of being arrogant...?!

Not only that, but this theist in particular is claiming that scientists are wrong, dedicated research is wrong, and this individual knows better than so many people...

Mark Hamill · 04-03-2011 12:22PM

dead one wrote: »

In this way?
you put faith on science by rejecting the fact "There is God"?. You put your faith in science or self.

Er, no. Fell at the first hurdle, didn't yo? My "faith" in science has nothing to with god, they are separate issues entirely. I trust in science because it actually tests its ideas, it embraces objectivity and evidence based reasoning and because it works. I reject the idea of any human described god, so far, because they fall apart under their own logic under the lightest of honest critical assessment.

dead one wrote: »

You presuppose that science or self are trustworthy places for your confidence, and find corroboration for this presupposition in the evidences that you can comprehend.

There is no presupposition. Science has shown itself to be trustworthy by actually working. I dont actually have that much trust in my ability to understand the universe, hence I aim for objective reasoning in any argument and reject the subjective.

dead one wrote: »

You believe in your own testimony rather the testimony of God i.e Quran.

Isn't it your faith against belief in God.?

Again, no. I dont believe that the quran is the word of god, and that is a separate issue to the existence of god. It falls apart under its own arguments but the eixtence of another concept of god is not effected by the quran being wrong.

Mark Hamill · 04-03-2011 12:23PM

dead one wrote: »

That is what intelligence arrogance. Isn't it? Arrogance is the first wall of defense for a very insecure person

Why are geniuses usually arrogant about their intelligence?

Because insecure people need to mistake the confidence and reason in others for arrogance so as to better ignore them.

robindch · 04-03-2011 12:35PM

^^^ QFT.

Dr. Loon · 04-03-2011 02:57PM

dead one wrote: »

In this way?
you put faith on science by rejecting the fact "There is God"?. You put your faith in science or self. You presuppose that science or self are trustworthy places for your confidence, and find corroboration for this presupposition in the evidences that you can comprehend. You believe in your own testimony rather the testimony of God i.e Quran.

Isn't it your faith against belief in God.?

In the first instance, Atheists don't believe in any gods. Therefore the supposed testimony of said gods is irrelevant. So, using the Quran as proof of God is off the table. It cannot be rationally used as any form of proof. The Bible suffers the same problem.

The real starting point for the entire discussion is the belief or lack of in god(s). Atheists don't believe in gods, and therefore no book (claimed as the word of said god) can be used as evidence for any god(s). So, that's the books off the table.

Next, there are differences in faith. Religious faith is belief without reason or logic. Take then, for example, my faith in my friends. I have faith in my friends because time after time they have shown that I can have faith in them. My faith in God fell apart a long time ago, when time after time my faith wasn't repaid. Not once was a prayer answered for example. I might as well have prayed to the FSM or my couch. Science proves it can be trusted through logic, reason, testing and peer review. Religious faith is not a method of acquiring knowledge, as no aspect of it can be proven.

Just on something else you said, agnostics don't neccessarily believe there is a creator. They believe it is unknowable. They won't say one way or the other. There are agnostic atheists, and theists alike. You need to get your "facts" straight - and I mean that in every sense of the word.

gbee · 05-03-2011 08:53AM

We are on this Earth to discover the secrets of treasure Island. We have Nancy Drew, a famous amateur detective under 60 years of age, who finds clues for us, our job is to interpret.

Our challenge is thrown off by the bumbling Hardy boys who only have the hots for Nancy anyway and no interest whatsoever in uncovering the clue's real meanings.

dead one · 05-03-2011 08:54AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Because insecure people need to mistake the confidence and reason in others for arrogance so as to better ignore them.

Isn't it sign of high arrogance to use arrogance of other people in order to secure their arrogance.?

dead one · 05-03-2011 09:21AM

bluewolf wrote: »

I find it amusing, as always, when theists accuse atheists of arrogance. Now I'm not saying this is beyond the realms of all possibility, not at all, but if you're going to accuse other people of being arrogant...?!

Why you are amused to torch your own reason, even that reason had no source of light,When you reject belief in God, you reject any source of confidence beyond your level of reasoning or understanding. Isn't it arrogance of mind even, I know still your mind is questioning to you. Why you don't finish this arrogance by telling that there is God. Even if you don't believe Quran or Bible, You should believe in this what thomas paine said

Thomas Paine wrote:

It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they may be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.

bluewolf wrote: »

Not only that, but this theist in particular is claiming that scientists are wrong, dedicated research is wrong, and this individual knows better than so many people...

You don't know don' you?:cool:

unknown wrote:

Science means "to know" and "systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, etc." It is based on observation and experimentation. Evolutionists don't "know" anything about man's origins. They guess, suppose, etc. but they don't "know."

dead one · 05-03-2011 09:29AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Again, no. I dont believe that the quran is the word of god, and that is a separate issue to the existence of god. It falls apart under its own arguments but the eixtence of another concept of god is not effected by the quran being wrong.

If you don't believe in Quran. Tell me where i force, that you should believe in it. There is no compulsion in Islam. But as you wrote

I dont believe that the quran

The statement has no power. You can make it more powerfull by reading the whole quran with context. The statement can only be powerfull if you reject quran by understanding it. That is demand of honestly and Many atheist,agnostic,christian,muslims etc are dishonest to themselves.

Research is honesty, Don't go to other people's statements. I am not saying you should believe in me, I am saying you should believe in you. Search it by yourself and than pass statements.

Mark Hamill · 05-03-2011 12:10PM

dead one wrote: »

Isn't it sign of high arrogance to accuse arrogance of other people in order to secure their arrogance.?

Fixed your post.

Ultimately, arrogant or not, its just a sign of someone not having an argument, so they result to emotive accusations instead. Lets say that every one is arrogant. In what way would that make them wrong? Someones opinion of their own opinion doesn't alter its veracity, so its moot.

05-03-2011 12:22PM

dead one wrote: »

Why you are amused to torch your own reason, even that reason had no source of light,When you reject belief in God, you reject any source of confidence beyond your level of reasoning or understanding.

That's fine by me, though I havent rejected belief, just worship

Isn't it arrogance of mind even, I know still your mind is questioning to you.

Why you don't finish this arrogance by telling that there is God. Even if you don't believe Quran or Bible, You should believe in this what thomas paine said

Well, I don't believe it because it's silly.

Mark Hamill · 05-03-2011 12:28PM

dead one wrote: »

If you don't believe in Quran. Tell me where i force, that you should believe in it. There is no compulsion in Islam.

Where did I say anything about force or compulsion? This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the part you are quoting.

dead one wrote: »

But as you wrote

I dont believe that the quran

The statement has no power. You can make it more powerfull by reading the whole quran with context. The statement can only be powerfull if you reject quran by understanding it. That is demand of honestly and Many atheist,agnostic,christian,muslims etc are dishonest to themselves.

Research is honesty, Don't go to other people's statements. I am not saying you should believe in me, I am saying you should believe in you. Search it by yourself and than pass statements.

I dont need to read the whole quran to honesty reject it. The fact that a supposedly divinely inspired book requires such in depth reading, in a particular language I might add, is evidence against its claim of origin. Why would a divinely inspired book limit itself in such a specific language (context doesn't work as well outside of arabic), why would only book be given in one small part of the middle east (kind of a disadvantage to Japanese, Australasians, everyone in north and south America etc) and why is it not written in a clear manner (why does it need context? write it clearly and understanding will be immediate). Before you even start reading, the book comes across as written by a deity who doesn't understand the people he is written for and the problems that will arise from not being clear.

Also, with so many people having read and claiming to understand it (they believe it), an efficient beginning to an assessment of the quran is to talk to them. I have talked to them and the answers they have given me have been unsurprisingly similar to every other theists flawed logic for believing in their god. You have the same circular reasoning, the subjective evidence and the same logical inconsistencies in you doctrine.

dead one · 06-03-2011 10:13AM

bluewolf wrote: »

That's fine by me, though I havent rejected belief, just worship

Well, I don't believe it because it's silly.

Ah yes i agree it's silly to believe in a smarter one than you are,

Many intelligent people don't believe in God because it would acknowledge that there exists something smarter than they are.

06-03-2011 10:21AM

dead one wrote: »

Ah yes i agree it's silly to believe in a smarter one than you are,

Many intelligent people don't believe in God because it would acknowledge that there exists something smarter than they are.

That's such a stupid argument. Stephen Hawking is smarter than me. Professors of my physics depts were smarter than me.
Oh look, something smarter than me exists! I didn't even have to make anything up for it!!

dead one · 06-03-2011 10:38AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Where did I say anything about force or compulsion? This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the part you are quoting.

I dont need to read the whole quran to honesty reject it. The fact that a supposedly divinely inspired book requires such in depth reading, in a particular language I might add, is evidence against its claim of origin. Why would a divinely inspired book limit itself in such a specific language (context doesn't work as well outside of arabic),

So this is village of people, God communicated with people their own tongue i.e God chooses Arabic to communicate his message along people. So you are saying God should choose some universal language to reveal his wisdom, Can you name that universal language. It is myth my friend. Arabs – and they were very intelligent people – many of them raised objections to his claim, using every objection a person could muster. They left no new objection for a person after them to employ. However, Muhammad (pbuh) answered all those objections with evidence and proofs which were the epitome of logic and rationality.

Here are some example which clear you doubts

Example No 1

Some said they didn’t believe in Quran because they didn’t believe the universe had a creator. The answer was: The how did you come into being? From pure nothingness? That is impossible. Or did you create yourselves? However, this is also impossible. No other possibility remains except that you have a Creator Who was not created nor did He beget nor was He begotten. Were they created from nothing, or are they the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they are sure of nothing. [Al-Tur, 52:35-36]

Example No 2

Some said they believed in the existence of the Creator, but didn’t believe in the possibility of resurrection after death. The answer was: If you believe that Allah created the human being after a time when he didn’t exist, how can you deny His ability to restore him after death, even though that would be easier? Moreover, you see in this universe before you tat Allah the Exalted brings the earth to life with vegetation, then causes it to die with drought, then He brings it to life again another time. The One Who revives the earth after its death, how could He be incapable of reviving the human being after his death?
And they say: When we are bones and fragments, shall we really be resurrected at a new creation? Say: be you stones or iron, or some created thing that is yet greater in your thoughts. Then they will say: Who will bring us back to life? Say: He Who created you in the first time. [Al-Isra’, 17:49-51]

Example no 3

Some of them said, “We believe Allah sends messenger, but we wonder why Allah would send to humanity a messenger like us. Why doesn’t He send us angels?” The answer was that angels are only sent to angels. What is appropriate for human beings is to have a human being like themselves sent to them, to address them in their own language and provide them with an example. If an angel were sent to them who did things which they found difficult, then he ordered them to do those things, they could argue that he is an angel who is capable of things they are incapable of.
Say: If there were upon the earth angels walking secure, we would have sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger. [Al-Isra’, 17:95]

I will answer your rest of post latter, thanks due to lack of time.

liamw · 06-03-2011 12:11PM

dead one wrote: »

Ah yes i agree it's silly to believe in a smarter one than you are,

Many intelligent people don't believe in God because it would acknowledge that there exists something smarter than they are.

dead one = Karl Pilkington?

Dr. Loon · 06-03-2011 02:58PM

This guy really isn't listening.

Mark Hamill · 06-03-2011 03:13PM

dead one wrote: »

So this is village of people, God communicated with people their own tongue i.e God chooses Arabic to communicate his message along people. So you are saying God should choose some universal language to reveal his wisdom, Can you name that universal language. It is myth my friend.

I dont have to able to name a universal language in order to say one could exist, not when I'm entertaining the hypothetical of your god existing. Your god could make a universal language, he is god after all. It doesn't even need to magic, just straightforward, easy to translate and have no terms or words that only make sense (or make better sense) in certain languages.

dead one wrote: »

Example No 1

Some said they didn’t believe in Quran because they didn’t believe the universe had a creator. The answer was: The how did you come into being? From pure nothingness? That is impossible. Or did you create yourselves? However, this is also impossible. No other possibility remains except that you have a Creator Who was not created nor did He beget nor was He begotten. Were they created from nothing, or are they the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they are sure of nothing. [Al-Tur, 52:35-36]

And then who created the creator? Why should the idea of creation apply to the beginning of the universe? Creation (and causality) is a function of time, but time and space all began when the universe began, so why should our notions of creation apply to the universe?

dead one wrote: »

Example No 2

Some said they believed in the existence of the Creator, but didn’t believe in the possibility of resurrection after death.

This doesn't apply to me then, I dont believe in a creator.

dead one wrote: »

The One Who revives the earth after its death, how could He be incapable of reviving the human being after his death?

Why couldn't the one who revives the earth after its death not have made a universal language?

dead one wrote: »

Example no 3

Some of them said, “We believe Allah sends messenger, but we wonder why Allah would send to humanity a messenger like us. Why doesn’t He send us angels?” The answer was that angels are only sent to angels. What is appropriate for human beings is to have a human being like themselves sent to them, to address them in their own language and provide them with an example. If an angel were sent to them who did things which they found difficult, then he ordered them to do those things, they could argue that he is an angel who is capable of things they are incapable of.
Say: If there were upon the earth angels walking secure, we would have sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger. [Al-Isra’, 17:95]

I have a feeling that these examples are copy/paste situations, as I didn't say anything about angels (or about believing in allah, but not life after death for that manner). Now, I dont really mind you copy/pasting in someone else argument against mine (a link to the original would be nice, though) but at least choose others arguments that are relevant to my points.

dead one · 07-03-2011 05:35AM

liamw wrote: »

dead one = Karl Pilkington?

"Stop looking at the walls, look out the window."

dead one · 07-03-2011 06:50AM

Dr. Loon wrote: »

In the first instance, Atheists don't believe in any gods. Therefore the supposed testimony of said gods is irrelevant. So, using the Quran as proof of God is off the table. It cannot be rationally used as any form of proof. The Bible suffers the same problem.

Look Friend, You said atheists don't believe in any gods. Its your choice, who grant you this choice that is God. If you are not going to change your choice than. Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has layed out a clear path . The person is always free to make his or her own choice. There is not complusion in the way of "Islam." Whoever choses to worship Allah without partners and is devoted to Him and is obeying His commands as much as possible, has grasped the firm handhold that will never break. Whoever denies God and choses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them, they have their choice. It's all about choice, If you chooses to believe in God you have benefited yourself, If you choose to disbelief in God than you have destroyed yourself that is what quran says.

There is only one religion originated with Allah i.e Islam and then people began to add or take away from the teachings so as to take control over each other. Man made religions are an abomination before the Lord and will never be accepted. He will only accept true submission, obedience and in purity and peace to His commandment

Dr. Loon wrote: »

The real starting point for the entire discussion is the belief or lack of in god(s). Atheists don't believe in gods, and therefore no book (claimed as the word of said god) can be used as evidence for any god(s). So, that's the books off the table.

It's your choice, I am not forcing you but the subject which you are discussing is already discussed in quran with detail so i am talking help of quran once again sorry about that. But that is what Quran exactly points, You believe in yourself. You have faith in your testimony against the testimony of God. You have made yourself as yout lord against the God. Please see the beauty here

(45:23) Did you ever consider the case of him who took his desire as his god, and then Allah caused him to go astray despite knowledge, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and cast a veil over his sight? Who, after Allah, can direct him to the Right Way? Will you not take heed?
To make one's lust one's god" implies that one should become a slave of one's lusts and desires: one should do whatever one likes whether God has forbidden it, and should not do what one dislikes, whether God has made it obligatory. When a man starts obeying somebody like this, it means that his deity is not God but the one whom he is obeying without question, no matter whether he calls him his Iord (with the tongue) or not, and carves out an image of him and worship: him or not. For when he has worshipped him directly without question, it is enough to make him a deity because one did not call the object of one's worship one's deity with the tongue, nor prostrated oneself before it.

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Next, there are differences in faith. Religious faith is belief without reason or logic. Take then, for example, my faith in my friends. I have faith in my friends because time after time they have shown that I can have faith in them. My faith in God fell apart a long time ago, when time after time my faith wasn't repaid. Not once was a prayer answered for example. I might as well have prayed to the FSM or my couch. Science proves it can be trusted through logic, reason, testing and peer review. Religious faith is not a method of acquiring knowledge, as no aspect of it can be proven.

The essence of faith is same but there is one problem that you have faith in your friend because you can see while we have unseen faith in unseen God and his testimony i.e quran. Your faith in god fell apart because God gave you guidance, because the god you are looking is not true god . (i am talking in gestures so you understand what i am saying) Why your faith is not repaid because you didn't try to find real God. There are as many gods in the world as many people. Nations have created so many gods so it is very confusing to find real God. You said about science, There are lot of thing about which still science is silence and will remain always silence. If you truely submit you will to Allah, that is only way to conquerer the universe because what Allah knows you Don't

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Just on something else you said, agnostics don't neccessarily believe there is a creator. They believe it is unknowable. They won't say one way or the other. There are agnostic atheists, and theists alike. You need to get your "facts" straight - and I mean that in every sense of the word.

Still they believe whether is unknowable or not.

Thomas Paine wrote:

It is only by the exercise of reason that man can discover God. Take away that reason, and he would be incapable of understanding anything;

In other paragraph he stated

Thomas Paine wrote:

The Almighty Lecturer, by displaying the principles of science in the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to imitation. It is as if He had said to the inhabitants of this globe, that we call ours, "I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, AND LEARN FROM MY MUNIFICENCE TO ALL, TO BE KIND TO EACH OTHER

Also

Quran wrote:

Do they not see how Allah begins the Creation, then repeats it? That is easy for Allah (to do) (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 19).
Say: "Travel through the Earth and see how He began the Creation. Then, Allah makes the latter Creation. Allah is capable of (doing) everything" (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 20).

dead one · 07-03-2011 07:29AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont have to able to name a universal language in order to say one could exist, not when I'm entertaining the hypothetical of your god existing. Your god could make a universal language, he is god after all. It doesn't even need to magic, just straightforward, easy to translate and have no terms or words that only make sense (or make better sense) in certain languages.

Well, my friend you are not going to understand easy and plain language why you consider that you will understand if my god could make a universal language to translate term. Isn't it irony. I am just clearing your confusing i am not forcing you, That you don't have to dig holes, or plain mountains to become Muslims. You have to just admit there is God and who tells us about that God i.e his messenger like, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Muhammad is last messenger. If you admit it than you will muslim as you r thinking that to become muslim you have to fight with someone or to kill someone. The magic and language which God created speaks, why not test it
Ask to yourself who created you. Suppose yourself says in answer, "Your parents" than ask who created the first man on earth. Isn't it confusion in your mind. Isn't it your ego which makes you superior. You are everything, don't look at other people, how they train you, how they behave you

Rumi wrote:

When your chest is free of your limiting ego,
Then you will see the ageless God.
You can not see yourself without a mirror;
Look at the God, He is the brightest mirror.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And then who created the creator? Why should the idea of creation apply to the beginning of the universe? Creation (and causality) is a function of time, but time and space all began when the universe began, so why should our notions of creation apply to the universe?

That is i already explain it you, No one tells who created God unless you believe in God's words. The confusion remains in your mind unless you admit it that there is God who has no beginning and ending. Same example you believe Clock has creator but you don't believe that the complex clock of your body is created by someone for some purpose so that he can test whether you give correct time or not.

Canis Lupus · 07-03-2011 08:19AM

My head hurts.

ShooterSF · 07-03-2011 08:39AM

dead one wrote: »

If you don't believe in Quran. Tell me where i force, that you should believe in it. There is no compulsion in Islam. But as you wrote

The statement has no power. You can make it more powerfull by reading the whole quran with context. The statement can only be powerfull if you reject quran by understanding it. That is demand of honestly and Many atheist,agnostic,christian,muslims etc are dishonest to themselves.

Research is honesty, Don't go to other people's statements. I am not saying you should believe in me, I am saying you should believe in you. Search it by yourself and than pass statements.

Do you reject the flying spaghetti monster as the one true god?
Have you even read the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster before rejecting it?

ADGOBE · 07-03-2011 08:54AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why does god need to test our faith?

Because God needs to separate the true, sincere, good msulims from the bad muslims who do not love God but only seek heaven.
and God cannot let humans truely be human if every single time a person had a dark temtation he just popped into the dudes head or whatever and say you cant do that.
Finally he also challenged the devil(shaitan)to try to mislead his creations to prove that we arent the greatest of Gods creation.

dead one · 07-03-2011 09:05AM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

My head hurts.

Even if your head isn't necessarily caused by stress, relaxing can help speed up your recovery. Meditate, do some yoga, or try any number of relaxation techniques.:cool:

Off topic discussion about God/Islam/Questions...

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