Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-12-2010 05:08PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think you can add/remove 2 players from the HEC squad before Rounds 5&6. Barry Murphy should take Mafi's place.

I'd almost disagree with taking out Mafi, but he was very good yesterday when he came on (for once) before he got a yellow for a perfectly legal dump tackle. He offers a bit more variety than Tuitupo, he can smash it up just like him and has a wicked sidestep too. He threw one very good pass yesterday too.

I think he needs to play 1/2 of the upcoming magners games with Earls just to see if he can become the player of old. If not then we can drop him from the squad. Lest we forget that when he was with Tipoki some people were lauding him as the best 12 in the Northern Hemisphere. :eek:

B.Murphy has an ability to run incredible lines and has a fantastic rugby brain. He is absolutely textbook in everything that he does, tackling especially. Had he not had so many problems with injury he would had ~30+ Irish caps and BOD wouldn't have been run in the ground by playing whilst injured. None of this had chance to materialise though

These next few weeks should be spent improving the set piece (scrum esp.). Mafi needs to be given a last chance to see if he can rediscover form (People claim that he is one dimensional, but he has alot more to his game than Tuitupo). Borlase needs to be added to the HC squad and given a chance to see if he can help out scrum too.

We badly need to work on getting the backs moving too. We have alot to work on, but I feel we can get a win in France and hopefully a BP against the Irish.

danthefan · 19-12-2010 05:28PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Had he not had so many problems with injury he would had ~30+ Irish caps

Haha, good one.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-12-2010 05:35PM

danthefan wrote: »

Haha, good one.

I was going to say 20 but that sounded too low, but I see no reason why he wouldn't have had. I'm not saying that he would have started the games, but over the last 5 or so years he would have come off the bench quite alot.

Badgermonkey · 19-12-2010 07:15PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I was going to say 20 but that sounded too low, but I see no reason why he wouldn't have had. I'm not saying that he would have started the games, but over the last 5 or so years he would have come off the bench quite alot.

Stop digging Captain

Judgement Day · 19-12-2010 08:11PM

Like Thomond if I never saw Mafi play for Munster again it would be too soon. His record of yellow cards is remarkable and referees probably have him earmarked for special attention at this stage. If only he could be guaranteed to start each game a punt with PP on - will there be a yellow card - would be an almost guaranteed pay-out.

Risteard · 19-12-2010 08:51PM

I don't know why people are suggesting Bowe, or other imprts. Why not play some of our younger players? The academy is there for a reason. I find it amazing that our youngsters aren't used more. I look at Leinster and see Ryan pushing for a HC bench spot at what 19/20? Rhys Ruddock just behind him. Eoin O'Malley was started last week despite not having massive experience (I think.)

You could argue Ryan and Ruddock are a lot more physically advanced than most 19/20 year olds but still. Our back row is aging badly and we have lots of potential in that area, why aren't they used? Conor Murray puts in some good performances when required and then gets dropped. What's likely to be his reward? To drop behind Williams and barely get any gametime.

You can't dump a load of new players in at once, but there's no real benefit of playing them once in a while. I would just like to see some players move ahead and get a chance when performances dictate it.

19-12-2010 08:57PM

How has Paddy Butler not featured whatsoever? Himself and Ruddock/Ryan were a dynamic back 3 for the U20 Irish team last year, and Butler was a key element. Dave O Callaghan at 5 was incredible in the 6N for the Irish team, and another name not getting any exposure at ML level.

Seems opportunities for the younger lads is very limited, but is a terrible opportunity to pass up imo.

wixfjord · 19-12-2010 09:04PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

B.Murphy has an ability to run incredible lines and has a fantastic rugby brain. He is absolutely textbook in everything that he does, tackling especially. Had he not had so many problems with injury he would had ~30+ Irish caps and BOD wouldn't have been run in the ground by playing whilst injured. None of this had chance to materialise though

Im gonna call this like it is, absolute bollocks!
One iconic try, and he's the best thing since sliced bread. The guy has done nothing in Munster red to say he'd even get on the Munster team, never mind the Irish team!! I mean come on Cpt!

Risteard · 19-12-2010 09:08PM

Barry Murphy IMO is a good player who perhaps had/has the potential to be a very good HC player for us, but I think expectations were raised a bit too high after that try he scored against Sale. He does pose a threat but has been very unfortunate with injury. Earls has the 13 jersey sewn up for the foreseeable future so his opportunity lies on the wing IMO if he's to get into the HC team.

A handy player for us to have and I'd have him ahead of Mafi, but suggesting he'd have 20-30 Irish caps is a bit much considering who was ahead of him at the time and is now ahead of him. Good player though.

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 09:14PM

Risteard wrote: »

I don't know why people are suggesting Bowe, or other imprts. Why not play some of our younger players? The academy is there for a reason. I find it amazing that our youngsters aren't used more. I look at Leinster and see Ryan pushing for a HC bench spot at what 19/20? Rhys Ruddock just behind him. Eoin O'Malley was started last week despite not having massive experience (I think.)

You could argue Ryan and Ruddock are a lot more physically advanced than most 19/20 year olds but still. Our back row is aging badly and we have lots of potential in that area, why aren't they used? Conor Murray puts in some good performances when required and then gets dropped. What's likely to be his reward? To drop behind Williams and barely get any gametime.

You can't dump a load of new players in at once, but there's no real benefit of playing them once in a while. I would just like to see some players move ahead and get a chance when performances dictate it.

This is the situation where the IRFU player management epically fails in my view.
I'll try to explain this as best I can, it might be a bit muddled.

When internationals are rested by the provinces for certain ML games (as per the Player Management plan/structure whatever), other fringe/young players get a chance. However I would think under this Player Management structure the internationally contracted players must play a certain number of games i.e. some ML and all the HEC. So it doesn't matter how well the likes of Nagle or Murray are playing, the international players like DOC and TOL must come back in and play the next game. So form of fringe players doesn't matter. Correct me if I'm wrong here (looking at justind) but this means that the provincial coaches are hamstrung. Now for the most part it won't matter because the international players are in fact the best players, but in the Murray situation in particular it's a terrible situation. That's why TOL walked back into the Munster side for Dragons away and Murray was for all intents and purposes robbed. Barring injury/suspension, the first teamers and the fringe players are kept in their own seperate 'boxes'. I think DOC has been getting away with many displays of mediocrity for a long time.

It's a completely different situation in England and France. Imagine Toulouse for example with their internationals (Medard, Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud) in the back three. I'm sure there have been occasions when the starting international wasn't the starter for Toulouse. It's been the form selection, no international bull**** gets in the way.

Amazotheamazing · 19-12-2010 09:20PM

Risteard wrote: »

Our back row is aging badly and we have lots of potential in that area, why aren't they used?

Fair question.

In order it seems to be

POM, TOD, Butler

DOC 2.0, BOH, Essex.

All 6 have been class for our A team but only POM and TOD are getting senior gametime.

If we're out of the HEC (and we virtually are) we should use this years ML at getting at least 4 of the above real gametime for the senior team.

Risteard · 19-12-2010 09:21PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fair question.

If we're out of the HEC (and we virtually are) we should use this years ML at getting at least 4 of the above real gametime for the senior team.

Exactly what I said to someone after the match yesterday.

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 09:30PM

Risteard wrote: »

Exactly what I said to someone after the match yesterday.

I absolutely agree with that.

Problem is the top players are on top wages and therefore will be played.

irishbucsfan · 19-12-2010 09:32PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If we're out of the HEC (and we virtually are) we should use this years ML at getting at least 4 of the above real gametime for the senior team.

Do Munster fans really believe this?

I would have thought Munster are in a strong position in their group

Risteard · 19-12-2010 09:33PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do Munster fans really believe this?

I would have thought Munster are in a strong position in their group

Toulon is a must win game if we lose that then we can essentially kiss our qualification hopes goodbye, maybe bar an unlikely series of results.

I think we have a good chance but we'll have to play a lot better than yesterday.

Amazotheamazing · 19-12-2010 09:43PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do Munster fans really believe this?

I would have thought Munster are in a strong position in their group

`
It's possible we'll win in Toulon but it's not likely, imo.

Toulon will destroy our scrum.

If we go out, the ML is only a consolation prize. I'd rather bring through new players tbh.

sock puppet · 19-12-2010 10:04PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

`
It's possible we'll win in Toulon but it's not likely, imo.

Toulon will destroy our scrum.

If we go out, the ML is only a consolation prize. I'd rather bring through new players tbh.

It's possible to do both. Munster made the playoffs last year just on the strength of their home record.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-12-2010 10:24PM

There is no chance that the scrum can perform that badly again. Everyone in the frontrow had a horrible day at scrum time. Wian is a very solid scrummager and even though Mushy will never be a destructive scrummager, he is capable of locking his side of the scrum for the majority of a match.

Hopefully the Aussies in charge will finally realise that the scrum is an important part of the game and will begin to put some effort into its coaching. We had come on leaps and bounds in the scrum this year; Hopefully the match yesterday will serve to encourage us into working hard in training and not cause the team to feel that we will never hold our own.

The Ospreys showed that after the first game that with a bit of work, they could kill us in the scrum and they did. The one thing that everyone is forgetting is that they are one of the best/the best scrummagers in the NH, A.Jones could be the best TH in the world at scrum time. They pushed in and up in the set piece, its totally illegal but French refs tend to allow the front row solve those problems themselves and only jump in when one side collapses.

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 11:00PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do Munster fans really believe this?

I would have thought Munster are in a strong position in their group

Risteard wrote: »

Toulon is a must win game if we lose that then we can essentially kiss our qualification hopes goodbye, maybe bar an unlikely series of results.

I think we have a good chance but we'll have to play a lot better than yesterday.

We must win in Toulon. Anything else and it's all over.

We did ok against them in the scrum in October but I think at home and with something tangible to play for they will be a different beast in January.

Selection for them is a big issue too. Who will be their Kolpak players? If I was them I'd have both Lobbe and Contepomi on the pitch with Wilkinson at 10.

They will be favourites but tbh they're not a great side. A few world class operators among many average players. They play a very narrow game and rely hugely on their brilliant backrow to drive them forward. If Lobbe and Van Niekerk both start, god help us. We'll be wiped off the field.

We won't sort our scrum but we can fix our discipline issues. We can't hand Wilkinson any penalties inside our half, we all know what will happen.

Will be travelling down from Aix-en-Provence for the match, can't ****ing wait!

PARCE QUE TOULON!

danthefan · 19-12-2010 11:59PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do Munster fans really believe this?

I would have thought Munster are in a strong position in their group

How they hell are they in a strong position? They have to win in Toulon to have a chance of getting out of the group. Leaving yourself having to win in France is not a strong position.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 20-12-2010 12:36AM

We will definitely get out of the group if Dr. Pony starts at 10, he erratic against Munster.

[Jackass] · 20-12-2010 01:04AM

Munsters problem is having extremely conservative coaches for the last decade.

It's really going to hurt them over the next decade in my opinion. I just don't think nearly enough talent has been developed, and as has been said, the amount coming through the Leinster academy is incredible compared to that of Munster. From academy players getting regular game time, to first choice at Leinster, to international caps, to regular internationals to Lions tourists.

Only really Earls has matched that, and a handfull of Leinster lads have already done it, with another dozen behind them waiting to do it too.

Too many names at Munster that wont be dropped, and i've a very sneaky suspicion that the 1970's club at Munster have all been promised game time in order to sign contracts bringing them near their 40th birthday in order to stem mass retirements, but still the youth tio replace them isn't being brought through enough, and the lads getting oppertunities are showing nearly enough talent to replace the ageing big names.

John Hayes was playing for Munster before Andrew Conway of Leinster was born. He's on a senior contract now and was unlucky to miss the Clermont game through injury.

I feel Munsters academy and player development has been grossly mismanaged, and I don't think Munster will be allowed to collapse by the IRFU, but I think they will become more and more of a team of foreign imports and living off scraps from Ulster & Leinster academy.

I also feel the bubble is about to burst. Munster have been doing really well in the Magners and have done well in Europe, two semi-finals in a row, which isn't helping, and neither is the Earls buzz, because all this has done has allowed people to remain in denial and say nothing is wrong ... but it will take a massive reality check, which may come in the form of a group stage exit in the Heineken Cup to show that the quality has slipped...

Munster have good young players, but none that look like they'll be world class at the moment. There's no Sean O'Brien's, Cian Healy's, Jamie Heaslip's, Johnny Sexton's, Rob Kearney's, and only one Luke Fitzgerald's ...

Munster will invest a lot in Ian Keatley. I think they'll be desperate to get him to the level of Ronan O'Gara prime, and Munster will never have a bad pack, and they have enough players from years gone by to train them in the dark arts, and that got Munster very far in the past...but I feel they've been found out a lot in that respect (and knowing them as well as they do, Leinster seem to have learnt the combination to unlock that every time) and I think the game has moved on, and you can't get away with that any more, and that puts a lot of pressure on guys like Keith Earls and Felix Jones to come up with answers elsewhere.

Bowe signgin for Ospreys for another 3 years was a massive missed oppertunity for Munster, and could have really given the backline long term cutting edge threat around the park (as it would have free'd up Earls to stay out wide, Bowe in centre and Jones at FB), and I think the IRFU let Munster down quite a bit there...

I wouldn't say it's doom and gloom for Munster, but I think the rebuilding is being delayed and delayed and I still don't think the right track has been found, and there MAY be a grim period ahead for a few seasons, and it may not be felt for another few seasons...but you'd be a fool to write off Munster and who knows, they may go back to basics and have a collection of 15 decent players that make up more than the sum of their parts and continue to be a major player at every level in the sport..

profitius · 20-12-2010 01:19AM

Munster have talent coming through as they're showing with the A team. The problem is theres too many undroppable players on the team. Munster have Darragh Hurley and probably Borlase who are better scrummagers than Hayes for example. They're in the A team.

Munster differs to Leinster in player development. Players take longer to develop and theres less schools players. In the A team theres plenty of players ready to step up a level and far from the team waekening when the old players retire I think it'll strengthen the team.

POM, Butler, Dave Ryan, Dave O'Callaghan, Nagle, Foley, Brian Hayes, Sherry, Deasy, Dineen, Murray are all players who could be very good.

Theres also a lot of deadwood players in Munster. Players who have reached a level below being good HEC players but won't improve anymore or are going backwards. Fogarty, Niall Ronan, Coughlan, Dennis hurley, Tom Gleeson, Hayes, Horan etc.

ambid · 20-12-2010 01:21AM

I just saw the Munster game tonight and was surprised at how much their pack seems to have regressed in the past couple of years.

Okay so they were without O'Connell, Quinlan, and Horan, but still they seemed well short of the standards they've set themselves. Do you think it was just a bad day, or has the pack become weaker?

I remember Stuart Barnes a few years ago saying that Leamy was a better Number 8 than Foley, so it was a good thing he was taking the shirt (Barnes probably used a few incomprehensible metaphors and said "mate" quite a lot but that was the general gist). I can't help wondering if guys like Donnacha Ryan, Buckley and Coughlan are just a step below the guys they're trying to take the shirts off.

Is the pack sliding a bit, or was it just a one off bad day?

The Rooster · 20-12-2010 07:30AM

I know the mods have decided that we can't talk about the incident itself as it was done to death already, but have Munster accepted the 4 week ban for O'Connell or have they appealed?

Otacon · 20-12-2010 09:11AM

profitius wrote: »

Players who have reached a level below being good HEC players but won't improve anymore or are going backwards. Fogarty, Niall Ronan, Coughlan, Dennis hurley, Tom Gleeson, Hayes, Horan etc.

ambid wrote: »

I can't help wondering if guys like Donnacha Ryan, Buckley and Coughlan are just a step below the guys they're trying to take the shirts off.

Can someone explain to me why Coughlan is mentioned above?

For both the Ospreys games, one of the only facets of the game where we were good was the backrow. I thought Coughlan was fantastic in both games and he was out of position too.

[Jackass] · 20-12-2010 09:34AM

He's a good prospect and has come on nicely this season. Don't expect the finished article overnight. Heaslip has been playing regular with Leinster since about 2005.

stejkenny · 20-12-2010 10:06AM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd almost disagree with taking out Mafi, but he was very good yesterday when he came on (for once) before he got a yellow for a perfectly legal dump tackle.

Didnt know any of these were legal; if its legal its a tackle and if its illegal its a dump tackle. totally deserved the yellow and a this stage hes a total yellow card machine and a liability to the team.

profitius · 20-12-2010 12:19PM

Otacon wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Coughlan is mentioned above?

For both the Ospreys games, one of the only facets of the game where we were good was the backrow. I thought Coughlan was fantastic in both games and he was out of position too.

Maybe I was a little harsh on Coughlan bescause he's playing well and has been a good squad player. He's not the complete package though.

PhatPiggins · 20-12-2010 02:10PM

Otacon wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Coughlan is mentioned above?

For both the Ospreys games, one of the only facets of the game where we were good was the backrow. I thought Coughlan was fantastic in both games and he was out of position too.

Thanks for highligting that, it was one of the more surprising posts I've read for a while. Coughlan has been immensense for 12 months and if leinster didn't have such ridiculous depth in the backrow we'd be talking about him for Ireland.

Toulon away, easier then Perpignan away last season, we can win both remaining games and top the group.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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