Panasonic TG4/TV3 Sound?

maxg · 23-11-2010 8:29pm

STB wrote: »

Unfortunately after each hex edit change you have to restore to factory settings (in order to reinitialise the dvb-s2 tuner) doing that woul also lose the channels added during you initial change when it was in european model mode. So making the changes saving the channel list and attempting to go back to the freesat menu version wont work imo. You are accesing the memory afterall.

No, you don't need the dvb-s2 tuner for the channel scan. Without a factory reset you get only dvb-t and analogue in GW10 mode but you need only dvb-t for the saorview scan. The idea is to get the dvb-t channel list in GW10 mode and convert back to a G10B without resetting anything.

STB · 23-11-2010 10:54pm

maxg wrote: »

No, you don't need the dvb-s2 tuner for the channel scan. Without a factory reset you get only dvb-t and analogue in GW10 mode but you need only dvb-t for the saorview scan. The idea is to get the dvb-t channel list in GW10 mode and convert back to a G10B without resetting anything.

True. And a nice work around. Although a scary few minutes I would think!

Have you tried it ?

TheDriver · 24-11-2010 1:12am

sponge bob, thats an excellent idea if it were only possible, it would solve a lot of problems and generate major amount of good will. I am sure RTENL guys read these forums

Sponge Bob · 24-11-2010 1:16am

It is eminently possible. It should not be done without giving the forum here heads up so we have a sticky ready to explain any glitches and have the feedback sticky thread ready to rock.

If it passes quietly ...like the Y2K bug ....then it could be scheduled periodically in future up to 2012. After that I think normal frequency co ordination principles would make it impossible...then again maybe not if it goes well.

watty · 24-11-2010 9:43am

There are two more likely ways to fix it:
1) an SD card editor on PC. Could even use a cheap USB DTT stick to automatically create file. Pretty easy (I could write it less than a day) if we knew the spec of the file structure.

2) Panasonic do a Software upgrade. It's actually Panasonic's responsibility to fix this and not a big lot of work for them.

maxg · 24-11-2010 10:02am

watty wrote: »

There are two more likely ways to fix it:
1) an SD card editor on PC. Could even use a cheap USB DTT stick to automatically create file. Pretty easy (I could write it less than a day) if we knew the spec of the file structure.

I don't think you know the keys for decoding the hotel files. The files are crypted.

2) Panasonic do a Software upgrade. It's actually Panasonic's responsibility to fix this and not a big lot of work for them.

Panasonic UK simply don't care. The official response in 2009 was that this TV's were sold for the UK market and therefor no update is needed.

watty · 24-11-2010 11:30am

maxg wrote: »

I don't think you know the keys for decoding the hotel files. The files are crypted.

I know nothing about the files. But if Panasonic provided the spec, then the "hotel file" or encryption would not be an issue. For most situations it would not be relevant.

STB · 24-11-2010 12:28pm

Look, RTE NL are not going to be offering amnesty days for people who bought Panasonic Freesat Combo Tvs with crippled dvb-t tuner. There are more with legacy IDTVs that they have to get the message through to.

I did warn people to backup. The service type flags set by RTE NL are not to cripple UK DBook speced Idtvs with MPEG4 processors. They are set as its a TX standard for MPEG4 SD and MPEG4 HD. They also let people know that their MPEG2 TV wont work - as they simply wont tune in the station in a scan - rather than have a scenario whereby its tuned in with sound and no picture - thats what the flag does to MPEG2 DVB-T Freeview TVs that are compliant with UK DBook or at least what they are meant to do.

The only way to get it back is through the hotel hacked backup or using the G10/15s hack for the G10/15s only.

Owners threads best way forward.

Panasonic Dont Care - but it has been proven that the B models can be turned into European models with the G10s with theequivelant of a registry hack. This facility is no doubt available on the previous versions. Panasonic should provide the details of how to do it.

Sponge Bob · 24-11-2010 3:17pm

We know Panasonic don't care but if these 0x1 dependent rigs were ever sold through their Irish channel they will care when customers start returning them for a full refund. Panasonic firmware is dodgy and unsupported to say the least

But will RTÉNL care that they are muddying the DTT waters by broadcasting standard DVB-T codes rather than UK D Book crap and losing viewing households....households who invested a lot in digital telly and now have a brick .

I see nothing absolutely wrong with an amnesty, oul dacency and all that.

fat-tony · 24-11-2010 4:17pm

The solution to this is in Panasonic's gift - a firmware update made available to owners of these models.

Perhaps the Saorview certification process for Panasonic could be made conditional on the provision of updates to MPEG-4 capable TVs;)

Sponge Bob · 24-11-2010 6:03pm

fat-tony wrote: »

The solution to this is in Panasonic's gift - a firmware update made available to owners of these models.

Perhaps the Saorview certification process for Panasonic could be made conditional on the provision of updates to MPEG-4 capable TVs;)

Yes to 1 and no to 2, they could sue you rotten if you tried pulling that condition on them. If LG and Samsung and Phillips are certified then Panasonic will get certified. They will release firmware if their retailers are being hounded to take back "broken" sets though.

Imagine if the word spread that every Panasonic sold in Ireland since 2008 ( to date) is in actual fact uncertifiable .

They would certainly put the firmware code monkey to work in that case

But Panasonic are not the only offenders because I am certain there are other 0x1 flag d-book standard dependent boxes with Mpeg4 out there that are one scan away from a bricking too.

fat-tony · 24-11-2010 6:53pm

I was a little "tongue-in-cheek" with that suggestion (note the wink!).
Hopeful that someone in the certification chain might pick up on the Panasonic issue and "suggest" a fix - it's only software after all!
Much better chance of it happening than RTENL reverting to x'01' on a periodic basis, though.

Sponge Bob · 24-11-2010 8:19pm

fat-tony wrote: »

Hopeful that someone in the certification chain might pick up on the Panasonic issue and "suggest" a fix - it's only software after all!
Much better chance of it happening than RTENL reverting to x'01' on a periodic basis, though.

Certification has been completely outsourced to Sweden, a box presented to the Swedes is either compliant or not. They have no function whatsoever debugging a bricked box in Ballydehob that was never presented to them. They have no idea what is on the market and are probably unaware of the UK D-Book 0x1 peculiarity.

The Swedes won't even tell us who FAILED a certification test, we get the positives only

So either the 'market' presses Panasonic into action or nobody does. Panasonic have come from nowhere ...compared to Mitsubishi back in the CRT days, to being a major player. They wish to remain a major player and to do so they must maintain a reputation for quality and service .

That is the logical pressure point.

John1000 · 24-11-2010 11:21pm

I don't see why RTÉ can't fix the problem instantly by changing the flag back to
0x1. They were transmitting it for nearly a year while people were buying the
TV's.

It would be nice to think that RTÉ NL are trying make Saorview as backwards
compatible as possible with older TV's.

watty · 24-11-2010 11:26pm

Because the 01 flag is WRONG!

You don't want the "proper TVs" and setboxes to be confused?

The retailers & importers told nearly 2 years ago!

Sponge Bob · 25-11-2010 1:54am

0x1 flags , save in very controlled circumstances are wrong. I am only making a case for creating the controlled circumstance to protect millions of € worth of investments by households.

maxg · 25-11-2010 7:35am

watty wrote: »

Because the 01 flag is WRONG!

No its not wrong. Its optional to use either 0x01 or 0x16 for SD mpeg4/0x19 for HD mpeg4.

STB · 26-11-2010 2:48am

maxg wrote: »

No its not wrong. Its optional to use either 0x01 or 0x16 for SD mpeg4/0x19 for HD mpeg4.

Not true. MPEG2 is 0x01 ONLY.

Nordig get out clause is for operational dvb-t transitional period.

maxg · 26-11-2010 5:35am

A sentence from the NorDig receiver specs:

This service types (0x01) will be used for a service that only includes MPEG4 AVC video if it is desirable that an "old" SDTV IRD install and list a service (even if the SDTV IRD can not decode the video, used for promotion purpose).

watty · 26-11-2010 9:28am

maxg wrote: »

A sentence from the NorDig receiver specs:

This service types (0x01) will be used for a service that only includes MPEG4 AVC video if it is desirable that an "old" SDTV IRD install and list a service (even if the SDTV IRD can not decode the video, used for promotion purpose).

Sponge Bob · 26-11-2010 11:22am

watty wrote: »

Would a 0x1 amnesty not be a "promotion of goodwill " as it were.

STB · 26-11-2010 11:25am

maxg wrote: »

A sentence from the NorDig receiver specs:

This service types (0x01) will be used for a service that only includes MPEG4 AVC video if it is desirable that an "old" SDTV IRD install and list a service (even if the SDTV IRD can not decode the video, used for promotion purpose).

That specific allowance cop out comes under a heading for transitional arrangements for countries that have an existing SD DVB-T service and are switching to MPEG4. That is what it means by "promotion purpose"! Ireland does not have an existing DVB-T service. We are not switching from MPEG2 to MPEG4.

ETSI standards are clear on the flag usage of 0x01 which is reserved for MPEG2 only. It is clear that it is needed given the amount of legacy gear whilst never used in this country still exists from our nearest neighbours chain stores.

watty · 26-11-2010 12:46pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Would a 0x1 amnesty not be a "promotion of goodwill " as it were.

yes.

But how do you organise it and advertise it without encouraging Dealers to sell unsuitable TVs or argue they don't need to refund or replace.

I'm only trying to see the broader picture

fat-tony · 26-11-2010 1:03pm

Changing the flag back to 0x'01' seems to me to be a "Heath Robinson-ish" way around the problem. It's a bit like the workarounds in HTML / XML /CSS coding to suit Microsoft's non-compliance with specifications in their older browsers. That may have been a pragmatic solution when the non-compliance was in a product which had a massive majority market share, but it caused no end of issues to technical developers of web systems.

The proper solution to this is for the supply chain to go back to the relatively small number of manufacturers of TVs with actual MPEG-4 capability which are not processing or refusing to scan in channels using the 0x'16' or 0x'19' advanced codec flags and ask them to provide firmware updates.

As an aside I wonder if OTA updates to devices which haven't gone through formal Saorview approval will be carried through the RTENL network? Or is that a different thread?

watty · 26-11-2010 1:52pm

The manufacturer has to provide RTE NL with the files. Only Saorview approved sets are ensured OTA upgrades, but no doubt if the set is compatible with how RTE are able to transmit an OTA upgrade and the manufacturer paid for it, it could be done. IMO if Panasonic do upgrade the Firmware this is a much more likely scenario than RTE NL having "Amnesty 0x01 flag" hours once a month.

The only sensible way to fix this is firmware. Suitable Firmware is trivial for Panasonic. Much easier also for them to "internally order" than the mysterious internal workings and Management of RTE NL to be changed.

Sponge Bob · 26-11-2010 3:05pm

fat-tony wrote: »

Changing the flag back to 0x'01' seems to me to be a "Heath Robinson-ish" way around the problem.

Very, an Irish solution to an Irish problem comes to mind. That is why it cannot be official, it must be for a few defined hours only, it must be known to those gnomic boards.ie types only ....not officially launched .....and it never happened till the next time, maybe.

Anyone benefitting from a debricking 0x1 Amnesty had better have an SD card handy for the immediate backup and should sellotape the thing to their tellys afterwards.

As an aside I wonder if OTA updates to devices which haven't gone through formal Saorview approval will be carried through the RTENL network? Or is that a different thread?

Ah, will only work if they are not 0x1 dependent, I wonder if an extra 50 kbit channel could be launched just for pumping debricking OTA Firmware out to Panasonics ????

Sugg Ident,

"The Panasonic Channel. This is where Panasonic wipe their own asses in public."

Ninjakettle · 26-11-2010 5:07pm

I'm one of those here who tried contacting and speaking to panasonic about a firmware update - they're not budging. I don't expect anything from RTENL, but i would be grateful if they could give us the chance to tune into the service just once before the official launch date.

I do intend to chase Panasonic again once the service is properly launched as i think only then is there a small chance they'll listen.

Stinicker · 26-11-2010 6:20pm

I just got off the end of a 45 minute phone call with the very arrogant and stupid people who work for Panasonic in the UK. They are sticking to their "its a UK Model" mantra and after much pressure eventually told me that the TV is MPEG4 compatible but not MPEG4.H264 combatible. This is a total cop out because the TV can decode the transmissions despite the broadcast flag being changed only it cannot see them for to tune them again.

Panasonic really are a failure and I am now going after the retailer on the grounds that the TV is clearly not fit for purpose, I feel bad to do this because it is not the retailers fault that Panasonic are such a useless shower of cretins.

watty · 26-11-2010 6:35pm

Panasonic may be more inclined to listen to a bunch of irate Retailers and Distribtuters. After all they buy Panasonic every week/month. The customer only every 5 to 10 years.

Sponge Bob · 26-11-2010 6:46pm

watty wrote: »

Panasonic may be more inclined to listen to a bunch of irate Retailers and Distribtuters. After all they buy Panasonic every week/month. The customer only every 5 to 10 years.

Well Panasonic are the most NON compliant major manufacturer. What about a "Don't Buy a Panasonic In 2011 To Give Them Time To Fix Their Own Mess" campaign. In fairness I would tip off the retailers first .

They are the only major manufacturer flooding the market with non MHEG5 gear right now, the rest are basically compliant in 2010 and producing MPEG4 tunable sets with MHEG5 functionality.

Panasonic TG4/TV3 Sound?

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