Integrated transport infrastructure

westtip · 24-08-2010 2:25pm #1

Probably a few thoughts from other threads to come in on this one - but just want to examine how much joined up thinking if any there is on bringing together different aspects of our transport infrastructure - don't really want this thread moved to roads please - as I want to find out posters ideas on how roads, rail, air could be tied up together if we had any joined up thinking.

Here are a couple of pet subjects of mine:

1) Use the new motorway network to have a series of new bus halts near motorway junctions as opposed to in town centres, this would minimise stop times and allow express buses to stop once or twice on route without losing express status (eg Galway - Athlone - Dublin route with a mini bus station/halt on one of the Athlone bypass stops - eg the interchange with the N61 to Roscommon - allowing Roscommon passengers to pick up an express bus to Dublin from here.

2) Swing the southern branch line of the Western Rail Corridor North West just south of Athenry to link with the Dublin Galway line about two miles west of Athenry - thus getting rid of the "Athenry stopover" - and have an integrated west of Ireland road/rail bus/train interchange where this line would meet the Dublin-Galway line and on the new M6. Moving the Athenry station to this point a couple of miles out of the town centre. This would make Limerick - Galway journies quicker. And integrate with North South bus routes on N17/18 new roads.

Any other integration ideas around the country. I think if we can pull them all together pick out the best and see what comes out of it all.

Amtmann · 24-08-2010 2:47pm

Just on the point of moving bus stops close to junctions: Take junctions 3 (Abbeyleix), 10 (Cahir North), 11 (Cahir South), 12 (Mitchelstown North) 13 (Mitchelstown South) and 14(Fermoy North) on the M8: each of these is some kilometres from the town centres. How would people get from the towns to the bus stops? I know that people could walk, cycle or be dropped off, but assuming many people would see that as hassle, what could be done?

LeinsterDub · 24-08-2010 3:21pm

Is there any reason why the road can't go under Merrion gates and other problematic road crossings?

westtip · 24-08-2010 3:53pm

Furet wrote: »

but assuming many people would see that as hassle, what could be done?

Mobile phones - err please collect me I will be there at 10. Mini buses to connect to mainline buses, these halt stops don't have to be at every junction! and if they don't want to use this express bus service halting at selected junctions only - they can get the go slow bus stop at all town centres.

I am not saying move bus stops to junctions I am saying if we had them this is what could be done.

Cookie_Monster · 24-08-2010 4:04pm

This is a topic that I find interesting in relation to the Cherrywood Luas stop since I work beside it. Seemingly the new DB Network Direct has the 84 connecting to it at a new hub(before watered down). Lets also assume that the 46c and 7 and 111 will connect to the Luas when they are due for revision and the Luas open.

if this were any other country I'd assume the bus would stop at the Luas in a dedicated bay, no more than 20m from the platform. Now, will that happen here at this transport hub? The 7 et al currently stop on the main road to the M50, several hundred metres from the Luas stop. I reckon it will stay there when stop opens and not become integrated in the slightest. Simple thing like this is what frustrate people hugely about PT in Ireland

westtip · 24-08-2010 11:32pm

Here is one I always thought should be done - in a way it has been done with the Luas line - but when they did all that work on the Luas terminal at Connolloy why didn't they put in an elevated travellator from Connolly to Busaras, if anyone has ever had to haul a suitcase or carry a rucksack from one to the other they will know what I mean, I suppose now one can jump on the LUAS if you have a heavy bag to haul - but can you imagine an underground or overground travellator connecting these two transport hubs. they are after all only about 400 yards or so apart. Can you imagine how they could have done a spectacular job with this as an elevated travellator.

Talking of which why oh why don't they have a travellator along platform (4?) from the Dart platforms down to the main concourse and reverse the other way. Help for the handicapped, aged, buggie pushers, children carriers, wheelchair pushers, those with lots of shopping from city centre shops (always moaning we don't use the CC enough for shoppnig) and those of us just running for a train ........etc

Carawaystick · 25-08-2010 12:08am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there any reason why the road can't go under Merrion gates and other problematic road crossings?

The Irish Sea.

westtip · 25-08-2010 8:59am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is a topic that I find interesting in relation to the Cherrywood Luas stop since I work beside it. Seemingly the new DB Network Direct has the 84 connecting to it at a new hub(before watered down). Lets also assume that the 46c and 7 and 111 will connect to the Luas when they are due for revision and the Luas open.

if this were any other country I'd assume the bus would stop at the Luas in a dedicated bay, no more than 20m from the platform. Now, will that happen here at this transport hub? The 7 et al currently stop on the main road to the M50, several hundred metres from the Luas stop. I reckon it will stay there when stop opens and not become integrated in the slightest. Simple thing like this is what frustrate people hugely about PT in Ireland

Your post really proves the point that the capital needs the Dublin Transport Authority to control suburban trains, Dart, DB and the Luas (and Metro when it arrives) all as one transport organisation - without all these coming under one authority you won't get the kind of thinking you suggested, with employees working for one authority and planners and managers looking at journies people make and planning transpor to match those journies.

LeinsterDub · 25-08-2010 3:59pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Irish Sea.

What of it? Why wouldn't a Box Jacked or similar work?

Cookie_Monster · 26-08-2010 11:04am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there any reason why the road can't go under Merrion gates and other problematic road crossings?

The houses on one side would still need to be connected to a road. I don't really see the space for a tunnel and access road side by side without taking over the carparks and greens there, which will not go down well with locals. Also for a tunnel to merge with the rock road is a similar issue. Its going to have to be at least 7-8 metres deep to accommodate the largest vehicles (busy truck route) and have the required roof bits and pieces (fan, lights, cameras, piping) so with that kind of height change it would be difficult.

Raising the track would help of course but rail can only be raised by a 1:30 gradient at limit of practicality, more likely 1:50 for such a busy route. With stations so close this again becomes very difficult or impossible.

The cost to do this these days versus benefits would come out prohibitive also I reckon.

Judgement Day · 26-08-2010 11:09am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The houses on one side would still need to be connected to a road. I don't really see the space for a tunnel and access road side by side without taking over the carparks and greens there, which will not go down well with locals. Also for a tunnel to merge with the rock road is a similar issue. Its going to have to be at least 7-8 metres deep to accommodate the largest vehicles (busy truck route) and have the required roof bits and pieces (fan, lights, cameras, piping) so with that kind of height change it would be difficult.

Raising the track would help of course but rail can only be raised by a 1:30 gradient at limit of practicality, more likely 1:50 for such a busy route. With stations so close this again becomes very difficult or impossible.

The cost to do this these days versus benefits would come out prohibitive also I reckon.

1:30 would be as bad as the worst gradients on the Tralee & Dingle - that might produce some interesting side effects.

cozzie55 · 26-08-2010 11:24am

I'm going to go ahead and point out one of the obvious ones here. Why do we need two large railway stations in dublin???? As a regular on the train service in Ireland it annoys me as well as the countless other students that use the train service every weekend.

Anyone who has ever travelled from limerick to belfast knows the annoyance of having to get off and heuston and get the luas to connolly, or taxi for the amount of times i've come across the luas not working.

Also anyone who comes to heuston and needs to use the dart, needs to get at least three forms of transport to get on the dart.

Dublin needs one super train station like in most other cities, one area for all regional rail and one transport hub for all local rail i.e. the dart and luas.

KC61 · 26-08-2010 11:38am

cozzie55 wrote: »

Dublin needs one super train station like in most other cities, one area for all regional rail and one transport hub for all local rail i.e. the dart and luas.

Like Manchester with 2 stations, Glasgow with 2, London with 13, Paris with 6, Barcelona with 2, Madrid with 2.

Having more than one terminal station is nothing peculiar to Dublin.

There simply is not the space to build and operate a network from one station in Dublin that would be suitably located.

The Interconnector will solve the problem of the DART connections.

cozzie55 · 26-08-2010 12:00pm

KC61 wrote: »

Like Manchester with 2 stations, Glasgow with 2, London with 13, Paris with 6, Barcelona with 2, Madrid with 2.

Having more than one terminal station is nothing peculiar to Dublin.

There simply is not the space to build and operate a network from one station in Dublin that would be suitably located.

The Interconnector will solve the problem of the DART connections.

Most of these cities have one major train station which serves intercity, regional and local services. Other stations are located along the rail lines and work as other regional and local train service hubs. Not to mention that the population of these areas is far larger than dublin. eg there is 2.5 million in greater manchester. Dublin is unusual in that the two stations are not linked by a rail line. not counting the luas which you have to walk out side for. its not technically in the train station its just lucky that it stops outside the door and not a few hundred metres walk.

I'm not saying that this is one of the easiest problems to solve in terms of a site and location but from talking to anyone who uses the trains often, or anyone who has visited Ireland, they think our train service is awful in terms of connections. Don't even get them started on price and train times. My own brother who lives out of the country won't even use the trains in ireland anymore, when he flies into Dublin. Its less hassle and cheaper for him to rent a car and drive home to limerick. Not to mention quicker at this stage even without the entire motorway to limerick open

I do agree that the interconnector will solve a lot of the problems for dublin when and if it is built.

Cookie_Monster · 26-08-2010 12:49pm

cozzie55 wrote: »

Dublin is unusual in that the two stations are not linked by a rail line. not counting the luas which you have to walk out side for.

but it is connected. The line is just (mostly) unused.

Phoenix Park tunnel

cozzie55 · 26-08-2010 2:12pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it is connected. The line is just (mostly) unused.

Phoenix Park tunnel

never even knew there was a connection through the phoenix park..... as is the case for most people i'm sure

Why the heck don't they connect the two by a proper train service? Or allow some of the intercity trains stop at both heuston and connolly??? I bet the line is in disrepair cause they don't use it enough like most of the train lines in rural Ireland.

KC61 · 26-08-2010 2:36pm

cozzie55 wrote: »

Most of these cities have one major train station which serves intercity, regional and local services. Other stations are located along the rail lines and work as other regional and local train service hubs. Not to mention that the population of these areas is far larger than dublin. eg there is 2.5 million in greater manchester. Dublin is unusual in that the two stations are not linked by a rail line. not counting the luas which you have to walk out side for. its not technically in the train station its just lucky that it stops outside the door and not a few hundred metres walk.

I'm not saying that this is one of the easiest problems to solve in terms of a site and location but from talking to anyone who uses the trains often, or anyone who has visited Ireland, they think our train service is awful in terms of connections. Don't even get them started on price and train times. My own brother who lives out of the country won't even use the trains in ireland anymore, when he flies into Dublin. Its less hassle and cheaper for him to rent a car and drive home to limerick. Not to mention quicker at this stage even without the entire motorway to limerick open

I do agree that the interconnector will solve a lot of the problems for dublin when and if it is built.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it is connected. The line is just (mostly) unused.

Phoenix Park tunnel

cozzie55 wrote: »

never even knew there was a connection through the phoenix park..... as is the case for most people i'm sure

Why the heck don't they connect the two by a proper train service? Or allow some of the intercity trains stop at both heuston and connolly??? I bet the line is in disrepair cause they don't use it enough like most of the train lines in rural Ireland.

There is simply not enough capacity at Connolly to cope with operating additional trains through the Phoenix Park tunnel. That is the whole point of the Interconnector to facilitate more trains through Connolly.

As for being "lucky" that the LUAS serves the forecourt of both stations, eh, I think it was acrtually designed that way deliberately.

Your brother should check online in advance - given many trains have EUR 10 fares available I cannot see how it would be cheaper to hire a car and drive?

The timetables have vastly improved in recent years. Cork and Limerick now have hourly services, Galway, Sligo, Kerry and Waterford all have trains every two hours (and more at peak), while Mayo has four trains per day. The real problem is the journey times.

cozzie55 · 26-08-2010 4:12pm

KC61 wrote: »

There is simply not enough capacity at Connolly to cope with operating additional trains through the Phoenix Park tunnel. That is the whole point of the Interconnector to facilitate more trains through Connolly.

As for being "lucky" that the LUAS serves the forecourt of both stations, eh, I think it was acrtually designed that way deliberately.

Your brother should check online in advance - given many trains have EUR 10 fares available I cannot see how it would be cheaper to hire a car and drive?

The timetables have vastly improved in recent years. Cork and Limerick now have hourly services, Galway, Sligo, Kerry and Waterford all have trains every two hours (and more at peak), while Mayo has four trains per day. The real problem is the journey times.

Oh ok that make sense so why the don't use it.

Well knowing the layout of the luas I doubt that if the luas passed 500 metres away from heuston that they would have moved the tracks when they were reopening them. A few of the stations are a good bit from the areas the stops say they are. Eg Miltown is a good 5-10 min walk to the village

There is a few problems with booking online. First you have to get the train you book for which is grand but if you are relying on plane to be on time and then getting across the city you don't want to book to far in advance. Next problem is that only certain trains have the €10 fare. usually the least busy ones. All the ones from 15.00 are generally full price which is about €55 for an adult. If there is two of them coming on the train then that €110. it only costs him €80 for a car for the weekend and that includes a full tank of fuel and no waiting for transport connections.

He lives in denmark and it only costs him €8 one way to go 200km. Our price is roughly €34 to go the same distance (on limerick line anyway)

Definately journey times need to be cut. Once the motorway opens from limerick to dublin the journey time will be 2 hours approx the train takes 2.5 hours and thats for the quicker trains with few stops.

Cool Mo D · 26-08-2010 4:51pm

cozzie55 wrote: »

Oh ok that make sense so why the don't use it.

Well knowing the layout of the luas I doubt that if the luas passed 500 metres away from heuston that they would have moved the tracks when they were reopening them. A few of the stations are a good bit from the areas the stops say they are. Eg Miltown is a good 5-10 min walk to the village

There is a few problems with booking online. First you have to get the train you book for which is grand but if you are relying on plane to be on time and then getting across the city you don't want to book to far in advance. Next problem is that only certain trains have the €10 fare. usually the least busy ones. All the ones from 15.00 are generally full price which is about €55 for an adult. If there is two of them coming on the train then that €110. it only costs him €80 for a car for the weekend and that includes a full tank of fuel and no waiting for transport connections.

He lives in denmark and it only costs him €8 one way to go 200km. Our price is roughly €34 to go the same distance (on limerick line anyway)

Definately journey times need to be cut. Once the motorway opens from limerick to dublin the journey time will be 2 hours approx the train takes 2.5 hours and thats for the quicker trains with few stops.

The reason the Luas avoids Milltown and places like that, is because the Green line follows an old train line, so it's much faster than running along the street, and avoids getting stopped crossing roads. In the City Centre, there was no old train line to follow, so the trains run along the street, and they were put where they were needed. The Luas is not a reopening of anything - it was a compeletely new system.

If you book online, and miss your train, you can take another one that day, but if you got a cheap fare for one train, and want to take a more expensive one, you have to pay the difference. And the prices generally don't change that much - you can usually still get cheap fares booking the day before the train, if it's a quiet train.

Aard · 26-08-2010 10:00pm

cozzie55 wrote: »

He lives in denmark and it only costs him €8 one way to go 200km. Our price is roughly €34 to go the same distance (on limerick line anyway)

I know this is OT, but if you want a Danish train service, would you be prepared to pay Danish taxes? The average Danish worker pays 44% of his income to taxes, whereas the average Irish worker only pays 26%.* If one wants higher subsidies for public transport, one should accept higher taxes. The low-tax, high-expenditure model tends to lead to bankruptcy.

*(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_wed_sin_wor-total-tax-wedge-single-worker)

DWCommuter · 26-08-2010 11:25pm

KC61 wrote: »

Like Manchester with 2 stations, Glasgow with 2, London with 13, Paris with 6, Barcelona with 2, Madrid with 2.

Having more than one terminal station is nothing peculiar to Dublin.

There simply is not the space to build and operate a network from one station in Dublin that would be suitably located.

The Interconnector will solve the problem of the DART connections.

I beg to differ.

Spencer Dock (before it was turned over to greed) was the ideal site for a central location. It could have had all intercity routes and then Connolly could have been down graded to platforms 5, 6 and 7 and Heuston sold off instead. Add in the interconnector and the problem was solved. Remember that Spencer Dock had two double track alignments approaching it.

Your comparisons above are not like with like. The site for a central station existed and was in semi state ownership.

cozzie55 · 26-08-2010 11:32pm

Aard wrote: »

I know this is OT, but if you want a Danish train service, would you be prepared to pay Danish taxes? The average Danish worker pays 44% of his income to taxes, whereas the average Irish worker only pays 26%.* If one wants higher subsidies for public transport, one should accept higher taxes. The low-tax, high-expenditure model tends to lead to bankruptcy.

*(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_wed_sin_wor-total-tax-wedge-single-worker)

Denmark has an amazing transport system(roads, trains and buses), free health care, higher broadband availability, lower unemployment, lower crime rate, highest wind energy user.

I think it is even higher than 44% for him closer to 51% but it depends on earnings.

If it meant having better services with proper forward planning decision making then I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes. Maybe not 44% though.

Aard · 26-08-2010 11:49pm

I've been to Denmark and speak some Danish. The public transport system there is, like you say, amazing. I've been to Norway and taken the train from Oslo to Bergen, and again an amazing system. (Bergen has a population of around 250,000 and has just built its first light-rail line.) I currently live in Nice, and you can go anywhere on the busses or tram (including free transfers) for only €1.

The thing that these countries all have in common is high taxation. In France, income taxes are high, everybody pays an annual property tax (my appartment is roughly €2,000), anyone with over €750,000 in assets pays around 1% wealth tax. The list is almost endless. But the result is superior public services. My boyfriend went in for a CAT-scan, got the result the same day, and it cost him € zero. My GP costs €22, and I get 75% of that reimbursed. I can get the TGV to Paris in 6 hours. (They're currently extending the line to Nice, and it will only take 4 hours.) I could go on and on.

Long story short: trying to have an effective public transport system run on a shoestring just ends up leaving everybody concerned pissed off. The users are pissed, the workers are pissed, the government is pissed, and the taxpayer is pissed. How to lengthen that shoestring: higher taxes.

</rant>

DWCommuter · 26-08-2010 11:58pm

Aard wrote: »

I've been to Denmark and speak some Danish. The public transport system there is, like you say, amazing. I've been to Norway and taken the train from Oslo to Bergen, and again an amazing system. (Bergen has a population of around 250,000 and has just built its first light-rail line.) I currently live in Nice, and you can go anywhere on the busses or tram (including free transfers) for only €1.

The thing that these countries all have in common is high taxation. In France, income taxes are high, everybody pays an annual property tax (my appartment is roughly €2,000), anyone with over €750,000 in assets pays around 1% wealth tax. The list is almost endless. But the result is superior public services. My boyfriend went in for a CAT-scan, got the result the same day, and it cost him € zero. My GP costs €22, and I get 75% of that reimbursed. I can get the TGV to Paris in 6 hours. (They're currently extending the line to Nice, and it will only take 4 hours.) I could go on and on.

Long story short: trying to have an effective public transport system run on a shoestring just ends up leaving everybody concerned pissed off. The users are pissed, the workers are pissed, the government is pissed, and the taxpayer is pissed. How to lengthen that shoestring: higher taxes.

</rant>

I agree 100% with you.

While Ireland was going well we made a serious mistake in lowering income tax and relying on high employment returns via taxation, VAT and property related taxes. Had we not opted for the politically popular stunt of lowering income tax and stuck to the politically responsible act of maximising tax returns in a near full employment economy, then perhaps we could have done more in terms of infrastructure and even saved a few quid for a rainy day.:rolleyes:

dowlingm · 27-08-2010 12:22am

In fairness, it wasn't just the pols - it was the social partners egging them on too.

Colm R · 27-08-2010 10:38am

Furet wrote: »

Just on the point of moving bus stops close to junctions: Take junctions 3 (Abbeyleix), 10 (Cahir North), 11 (Cahir South), 12 (Mitchelstown North) 13 (Mitchelstown South) and 14(Fermoy North) on the M8: each of these is some kilometres from the town centres. How would people get from the towns to the bus stops? I know that people could walk, cycle or be dropped off, but assuming many people would see that as hassle, what could be done?

I think if the Bus used the Motorway only, you could nearly guarnatee arrival/departure time at each halt on the motorway.

A series of mini buses could be used to connect all these towns to the motorway halts.

And bring in a bit of technology, and implement a system where a bus will only stop at a halt if someone is there to get it, or wants to get off.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h · 28-08-2010 9:35pm

cozzie55 wrote: »

I'm going to go ahead and point out one of the obvious ones here. Why do we need two large railway stations in dublin???? As a regular on the train service in Ireland it annoys me as well as the countless other students that use the train service every weekend.

Anyone who has ever travelled from limerick to belfast knows the annoyance of having to get off and heuston and get the luas to connolly, or taxi for the amount of times i've come across the luas not working.

Also anyone who comes to heuston and needs to use the dart, needs to get at least three forms of transport to get on the dart.

Dublin needs one super train station like in most other cities, one area for all regional rail and one transport hub for all local rail i.e. the dart and luas.

I disagree with that idea. As KC61 said, it is not unique to Dublin to have two railway terminals. As he stated, in the case of London, there are 13 terminals. Although, you are correct, some of these terminals are on through lines to larger termini in Central London, there does exist a sizeable amount of stations that are not connected, like Heuston and Connolly. For example if you wanted to go from Charing Cross to King's Cross/St. Pancras, you take the tube between the two stations, just as you would take the Luas.

Dublin is unusual in that the two stations are not linked by a rail line. not counting the luas which you have to walk out side for. its not technically in the train station its just lucky that it stops outside the door and not a few hundred metres walk.

That is also incorrect. I'm going to use London as an example again, because I do know a lot about London Transort.
Taking an intercity train to Charing Cross, and then taking another intercity train from Kings Cross St. Pancras, requires taking the tube between the two stations. The London Underground, is run by TFL, while intercity rail is run by National Rail, just like the luas is operated by veoila and intercity rail is run by IÉ. The underground station is technically in a different building to the railway station in London. The the luas is outside is because it is a surface line running through the city Centre. The underground is conected to the rail station in London by an underground walkway, because it is underground. The luas in not underground and as such, it is outside.

Also, the last time I was in Dublin, the luas station at Heuston, was right in front of the station.

DWCommuter · 28-08-2010 11:22pm

d.a.r.r.a.g.h wrote: »

I disagree with that idea. As KC61 said, it is not unique to Dublin to have two railway terminals. As he stated, in the case of London, there are 13 terminals. Although, you are correct, some of these terminals are on through lines to larger termini in Central London, there does exist a sizeable amount of stations that are not connected, like Heuston and Connolly. For example if you wanted to go from Charing Cross to King's Cross/St. Pancras, you take the tube between the two stations, just as you would take the Luas.

That is also incorrect. I'm going to use London as an example again, because I do know a lot about London Transort.
Taking an intercity train to Charing Cross, and then taking another intercity train from Kings Cross St. Pancras, requires taking the tube between the two stations. The London Underground, is run by TFL, while intercity rail is run by National Rail, just like the luas is operated by veoila and intercity rail is run by IÉ. The underground station is technically in a different building to the railway station in London. The the luas is outside is because it is a surface line running through the city Centre. The underground is conected to the rail station in London by an underground walkway, because it is underground. The luas in not underground and as such, it is outside.

Also, the last time I was in Dublin, the luas station at Heuston, was right in front of the station.

Dublin is not London and Ireland is not the UK. Comparisons on this scale are pointless. A central station for inter city traffic was possible in a tiny city like Dublin by utilising "under utilised" infrastructure. However, CIE sold off the crown jewels and those same crown jewels now lie under the foundations of Celtic Tiger bull**** at Spencer Dock.

Transportuser09 · 28-08-2010 11:59pm

Whilst keeping buses out of towns would in theory help speed up journeys, I'm not sure having to get another bus out to connect will encourage people to use it if they have the alternative of simply driving out of town in their cars and straight to their destination without change. If a connecting shuttle bus is used it would have to be timed well to avoid getting delayed with town traffic and then delaying the main bus.

Transportuser09 · 29-08-2010 12:04am

DWCommuter wrote: »

I beg to differ.

Spencer Dock (before it was turned over to greed) was the ideal site for a central location. It could have had all intercity routes and then Connolly could have been down graded to platforms 5, 6 and 7 and Heuston sold off instead. Add in the interconnector and the problem was solved. Remember that Spencer Dock had two double track alignments approaching it.

Your comparisons above are not like with like. The site for a central station existed and was in semi state ownership.

I agree the Spencer Dock area would have been ideal in terms of space, but it's location was not neccessary relavent to where people want to go, being further from the CBD than Connolly. As it stands many Clonsilla commuters still choose to go to Connolly/Pearse than Docklands despite the option. True, with good Luas connections you can still back track from Docklands towards the city centre but the average joe soap prefers minimal changes when using the system every day.

HavingCrack · 29-08-2010 12:24am

cozzie55 wrote: »

I'm going to go ahead and point out one of the obvious ones here. Why do we need two large railway stations in dublin???? As a regular on the train service in Ireland it annoys me as well as the countless other students that use the train service every weekend.

Anyone who has ever travelled from limerick to belfast knows the annoyance of having to get off and heuston and get the luas to connolly, or taxi for the amount of times i've come across the luas not working.

Also anyone who comes to heuston and needs to use the dart, needs to get at least three forms of transport to get on the dart.

Dublin needs one super train station like in most other cities, one area for all regional rail and one transport hub for all local rail i.e. the dart and luas.

KC61 wrote: »

Like Manchester with 2 stations, Glasgow with 2, London with 13, Paris with 6, Barcelona with 2, Madrid with 2.

Having more than one terminal station is nothing peculiar to Dublin.

There simply is not the space to build and operate a network from one station in Dublin that would be suitably located.

The Interconnector will solve the problem of the DART connections.

Interestingly a plan for a single rail, bus and tram hub for Dublin was drawn up by Patrick Geddes (I think??) as far back as 1914 ! It was to have been located where Temple Bar is now and all rail and tram lines would have converged on an enormous station situated her. However, WW1, the Easter rising, War of Independance and Civil War soon put a halt to that!

Integrated transport infrastructure

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