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Watts per kilogram

24

Comments

  • #32
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Tonsillitis, antibiotics. Will probably get the damn things out over Christmas.


  • #33
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    - Mon-Sat: off the bike (due diligence for me after a bout of tonsillitis).

    - Sun: race in Carlow. No data as Garmin was being repaired. Dropped chain then got dropped, but probably would have happened anyway.


  • #34
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Mon: commute (28km).
    Tue: commute + shopping (46km). Back sore from heavy load, must refit rack.

    Got my iBood fat scales today, much fun. Need to standardise the protocol, but this evening they said 69kg, 9.6% BF (age: 35, height: 181cm). That seems plausible since I'm a bit ribby at the moment and quite light for my height. If 4% is almost-ill-TdF-2009-Wiggins, that would give me about 4kg amateur fat, which seems healthy. I've no intention of getting to 65kg.

    @Tunney: do I have your permission to use climbing wheels yet, or do I have to get veins on my stomach first?

    So I think the weight is fine and I just need much more power. Next goal is 300W for 20 minutes (best is currently 280W). Not fussed about CP60, too painful to test.

    Tested new Cinqo power meter tonight on the turbo alongside Powertap, numbers agree within a couple of watts. Compatible BBs on race bike and TT bike, all very easy and convenient.

    10K club TT on Thurs night. Have only used the TT bike once on the road, and not on the turbo in several months, so I don't have high expectations. Still no aero wheels or disc, maybe they'll come in time.


  • #35
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    I passed a van parked in Castleknock tonight. It was a Lumen Electric van. I thought it was apt to post it here.


  • #36
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Closing weight: 67.5kg

    Summary of this week's efforts...

    Mon,Tue,Wed: commuting and stuff, ~100km in total.

    Thu - Club League 10 mile TT
    26:12, 252W (back injury from earlier in week)
    Result: 3rd in semi-limit

    Sat - Pat & Monie Nolan Memorial (A4 handicap)
    49.3km, 1:19:02, 37.4kph, 457m ascent, 1193kJ, 252W (average), 267W (normalised).
    Power peaks: 30s:484W, 1m:405W, 5m:296W, 10m:294W, 20m:269W, 60m:257W.
    Result: 3rd unplaced A4

    Sun - Stamullen GP (A4)
    38.5km, 1:04:29, 35.9kph, 407m^, 170bpm, 937kJ, 242W (average), 258W (normalised).
    Power peaks: 1m:386W, 2m:346W, 5m:302W, 10m:284W, 20m:260W, 30m:257W, 60m: 246W.
    Result: finished about +1:15 down, dropped on hill 20 mins from finish.

    Around the time I got dropped on the Stamullen GP I was doing 290W ish (4.3W/kg) for nearly 5 mins. I can't climb much harder than this at the moment.

    Hopefully my back will recover properly this week and I can start pushing harder.

    Average power/normalised power/time from open races this season:

    184W/216W/1:44 (including crash)
    233W/----/0:56
    208W/232W/1:42
    218W/244W/1:35
    (Carlow - no data)
    252W/267W/1:19
    242W/258W/1:04

    Things are trending vaguely upwards.


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  • #37
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    While the sample size is small it does suggest a slightly inverse relationship between power output and kj burned. Why is this? Does one become 'more efficient' as one gets fitter/stronger/leaner?


  • #38
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    While the sample size is small it does suggest a slightly inverse relationship between power output and kj burned. Why is this? Does one become 'more efficient' as one gets fitter/stronger/leaner?

    No, that's just because the races are all different lengths and you tend to push harder on the shorter ones.

    I might switch have switched kJ to time as it's confusing even for me.


  • #39
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Last night I did the interclub league hillclimb TT at Bohernabreena.

    I'd crunched some numbers on the climb based on a MapMyRide profile, and established that with my default 39-23 I'd have to go very anaerobic at a very low cadence for a couple of the sharper sections.

    Since I don't have a compact powermeter and couldn't be bothered to change cassette, 39x23 it would be. Last year I was cycling with a 30-27 and I'm still trying to banish my "gear fear", so I reckoned that it would be an interesting experiment.

    Fortunately my clubmate Joe (who also races in A4/SL) turned up with a 42-23, and the man mountain El Tonto was on a 39-27, so I figured it'd be fine.

    The two practice hillclimbs I've done this year (of Cruagh) have been around 20 minutes at 280W, and whilst I feel there is a 300W hillclimb within my reach soon, I didn't want to blow up on the steep sections this time.

    So I started out easy enough, and my ride broken into rough thirds worked out at 285W/288W/286W, with HR averaging 178bpm overall and 184bpm for the last 6 minutes. There was a bit of leg pain, and at the finish I felt I could have gone harder, but maybe I'm just getting used to riding at my limits. I almost vomited a few minutes afterwards whilst curled up foetally on a hedge, so I guess I tried hard enough.

    As it turned out I spent a total of about 5 minutes at 50-60rpm and about 4 minutes in my anaerobic zone (over 320W), but it never felt uncomfortable. I just used the steeper sections to get out the saddle and stretch the legs.

    Still, I reckon a compact (or std double with a custom cassette) would be faster at my level for these events, to give a combination of low gearing and close gaps between gears.

    The upshot was 16:54 @ 286W, which I'm satisfied with under the circumstances. I was about 8% slower than the best in semi-limit. I reckon 320W would do it, so something to aim for next year.

    Edit: results here. I came 7/22 in semi-limit.

    Current weight is 68.5kg. Have been overeating this week so about 1kg up from my recent normal weight.

    Updated stats for races this year:

    2010-02-27: 247W/254W/0:49 (Club pre-season)
    2010-03-06: 184W/216W/1:44 (Mick Lally A4, includes crash)
    2010-03-14: 233W/----/0:56 (Newbridge GP A4)
    2010-03-17: 208W/232W/1:42 (Paddy's Day A4)
    2010-03-21: 218W/244W/1:35 (Bohermeen A4)
    2010-04-11: (Des Hanlon A4 - no data)
    2010-04-15: 252W/252W/0:26 (Interclub league - 10m TT, back problems)
    2010-04-17: 252W/267W/1:19 (Nolan Memorial A4)
    2010-04-18: 242W/258W/1:04 (Stamullen GP A4)
    2010-04-22: ??? (Interclub league DMS SL)
    2010-05-06: 227W/235W/0:43 (Interclub league - handicap SL)
    2010-05-08: 180W/206W/1:59 (Wexford A4)
    2010-05-13: 286W/284W/0:17 (Interclub league - hillclimb TT)

    Not much in the way of upward trend, and I suspect that the higher numbers in the Stamullen races may be due to not zeroing the power meter.

    I've been very lazy with training recently, not helped by some pain behind the knee and in my right calf which has thankfully abated now.

    The nice thing about a powermeter is it strips away all the subjectivity. I feel in generally better physical condition after a couple of months of racing but my stats haven't improved much.

    I need to find time for threshold training at least once a week, as racing just doesn't give the right sort of sustained intensity to push my FTP up, and racing near threshold for the sake of it leads to poor finishes.


  • #40
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,907 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    This thread makes for interesting reading. I am back on the bike again after 15yrs and hoping to get back to reasonable shape-and maybe even join a club again.
    I am curious about the stats and format of the data you are posting-I presume these are coming from a power meter (which i never knew existed until a few weeks ago). What sort do you use - crankset or wheels?
    Although it would have no basis on my condition today I am curious how one of my old tests would translate into todays data. One of my early seadon tests had the following outcome:
    Weight 62kg
    VO2 73mg
    Power at aerobic threshold 310watts
    HR @ Threshold 186bpm
    (max power at blow up was 370watts or so)
    Is it possible to translate this -even roughly?

    Kaisr


  • #41
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Weight 62kg
    Power at aerobic threshold 310watts
    HR @ Threshold 186bpm

    These benchmarks are still used.

    "Aerobic threshold" is a bit of a tricky one, as it's subject to interpretation. I think it is supposed to mean "the rate at which lactate starts to accumulate", but I believe that since different athletes can perform with different stable lactate levels, the decision about what level to choose is a bit arbitrary.

    So most commonly the "functional threshold power" (FTP) is used, which is the power you can sustain for one hour. It's probably much the same as "aerobic threshold", as an hour is long enough to eliminate anaerbic effects but short enough that you can't bonk.

    Unfortunately unless you're a double hard b'stard, doing regular 1hr time trials is a bit too tough, but there are rules of thumb to translate shorter efforts, e.g. FTP=95% of 20 minute power.

    I currently use a crank based power meter (Cinqo Saturn) which communicates wirelessly with by bike computer (Garmin 705). I can display the data during the ride in various different ways (e.g. current power, 30 second power, lap power) and download after the ride to my laptop using a USB cable.

    Then there are various software packages to analyse the data from single rides and over time.

    I most commonly use GoldenCheetah, which gives interesting graphs like this:

    dljgqf.jpg

    This is the critical power plot from last night (black) against the maximums from my 2010 racing season (red) and computed critical power curve (dashed line).

    It shows that my efforts last night were close to by season's best in the 10-15 minute interval (where the red and black lines are close), but were lower than my best for shorter periods. This is because power is fairly constant in a time trial, so you're never going to hit short interval peaks.

    It also shows that I'm getting nowhere near to my projected potential in 1hr power, but that's because I haven't done a 40k TT this year, and road races tend to be much more jumpy rather than sustained efforts near threshold.


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  • #42
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,445 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Is your goal still TT'ing this year or you moved on to racing?


  • #43
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Is your goal still TT'ing this year or you moved on to racing?

    My goal was never TT'ing as such, I'm far too crap for that. The TT bike was an impulse purchase when Planet-X pricing was too good to ignore. The intention was really to prepare for whatever TT'ing I would be doing by getting comfortable on the TT bike over the winter. I set myself a fairly arbitrary target of 1:04 for the start of the season, but never got around to that as I lost all my evenings in March and then got caught up in road racing.

    Even now that the evenings are longer and more pleasant, I struggle to find the motivation to get out on the TT bike. It's just not much fun to ride compared to my road bike. I'm sure I'll get back to it at some point...


  • #44
    Murph100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Murph100


    Hey Lumen, couple of questions for ya.


    Whose FTP test methods do you use, I see some slight differences between Coogan, Friel and Allen.

    Do you test on the turbo trainer or road ?

    ... and if on the turbo trainer, does that ftp translate across to ftp on the road ?


  • #45
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,907 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Thanks for your reply Lumen.
    You appear to me well educated in scientific training. Hope it's workin for you.
    Just seen your post on not focussing on TT. While I agree that it's a speciised dicipline I would venture the thought or notion that intensive road racing would only improve your ability to TT by improving physical and mental conditioning. Obviously intensive exertion to get away, stay away, hang onto a wheel or rejoin would improve TT ability. Mentally the experience of these would simulate the mental intensity of riding close to physical limit for extended periods of time. My best TT performances either came in a short stage race TT or a week or two after completing one.


  • #46
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Murph100 wrote: »
    Whose FTP test methods do you use, I see some slight differences between Coogan, Friel and Allen.

    I don't really do much testing. Testing requires cycling at threshold, and I'm usually significantly under or over it.

    There is an argument that threshold intervals are the "gold standard" for training. I don't have any issue with that idea, it's just that I can enjoy TV at 220W or music at 300W+ but there is no form of entertainment that works at 275W.

    I started racing in March and haven't done much structured training since then. I'm using almost all my domestic credits for racing, and any left over I use for fun cycling or the odd practice hillclimb.
    Murph100 wrote: »
    if on the turbo trainer, does that ftp translate across to ftp on the road ?

    20 mins at 280W is easy enough on the road. 20 minutes at 250W is very hard on the trainer.
    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Hope it's workin for you.

    Time will tell, it's interesting more than anything; I'm coming from a very low base. I decided to put this stuff in a training log to encourage other people to share their own plans, despite the fact that my numbers are woefully unimpressive. Part of the problem with power training is that anyone really good doesn't want to give too much away (or is disinterested in the gadgetry) so you only seem to find data from the crap people.

    Good luck with your return to cycling. Another poster here (Diarmuid) is around the same weight as you were with perhaps 280W FTP, and he's started placing in the hillier A4 races.


  • #47
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,499 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Lumen wrote: »

    20 mins at 280W is easy enough on the road. 20 minutes at 250W is very hard on the trainer.

    It's weird just how hard it can be to maintain high power on the trainer. You have the benefit of variety of terrain and a breeze on the road, which clearly helps. I find it just about as easy to keep up the high power on the track (where you have the benefit of the breeze, but no variety of terrain) - possibly being on a fixie on the track helps (ie no easy option to let-up by freewheeling).


  • #48
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Nice ride last night, apart from the insect life.

    Did a 30s sprint in amongst the tempo...

    30s: 721W
    10s: 851W
    05s: 896W
    Peak: 941W

    Need to do that more often. CP curve starting to fill out.

    dnd4qg.jpg


  • #49
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The Batterstown 10 mile TT circuit is convenient for evening spins so I've started using it for road bike training.

    I'm steadily closing in on my TT bike time from a few weeks ago.

    - 2010-04-15: 26:17, 252W, TT bike, aerobars, 50/disc & pointy hat.
    - 2010-05-21: 27:14, 254W, road bike, 50/50.
    - 2010-05-23: 26:29, 269W, road bike, 50/50.

    Another 12 seconds to go, reckon 275W will do it....

    edit:

    - 2010-05-25: 26:22, 279W, road bike, 50/50. Stupid flappy gilet! Armwarmers next time...


  • #50
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,445 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Pretty interesting, all the aero rig only saves about 23watts? Condition similar each time?


  • #51
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Pretty interesting, all the aero rig only saves about 23watts? Condition similar each time?

    Roughly similar conditions though it's a u-shaped course so can be affected by wind direction. Need more data points!

    I think the difference is more like 22W, but that's loads - about 8% power, though I'm sure I have great scope for improvement with my TT position.


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  • #52
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Excuse my ignorance os all things scientific related to training. What is 50/50, other than the obvious meaning.


  • #53
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance os all things scientific related to training. What is 50/50, other than the obvious meaning.

    Sorry, 50mm rims front and rear.


  • #54
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Lumen wrote: »
    Sorry, 50mm rims front and rear.

    Sorry to be a pain (and I certainly dont mean to admonish you), but should you not be going much faster, or is it the case that you are trying to put a consistent amount of power out.

    I guess, the aim is trying to increase your power, but am wondering why you average say 36km/h over 16km.

    Now I have never TT'd so I know not what I am talking about, but in my extreme naiveity I would have assumed that flattish course in weather like this that >40km/h avg was definitely doable.

    Last night without doing anything aero I covered first 30km in 1hour even. How much more difficult is sustaining 36km/h over 16km.
    Sorry for the rambing nature, but am curious as to the effort/pain involved, as I always feel I could be pushing myself harder. So in a way reading all you guys training logs serves as an illustration of what is or is not possible.


  • #55
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Sorry to be a pain (and I certainly dont mean to admonish you), but should you not be going much faster, or is it the case that you are trying to put a consistent amount of power out.

    I guess, the aim is trying to increase your power, but am wondering why you average say 36km/h over 16km.

    As a rule of thumb, I was told that the course tends to have about the same pace as a straighter, flatter 40k TT. There is 84m of elevation gain and three corners.

    The TT time was with a crippled back, but the others are just threshold training so I'm not aiming for "curled up a ditch" levels of suffering. My best power output for 17 minutes is 289W, and for 20 minutes 280W, but these are on hillclimbs where there are no downhills or corners so it's easier to keep the power up.
    ROK ON wrote: »
    Now I have never TT'd so I know not what I am talking about, but in my extreme naiveity I would have assumed that flattish course in weather like this that >40km/h avg was definitely doable.

    Not for me. :)
    ROK ON wrote: »
    Last night without doing anything aero I covered first 30km in 1hour even. How much more difficult is sustaining 36km/h over 16km.

    A lot.

    There isn't much difference between a 25 minute effort and a 60 minute effort, except psychologically. Maybe 5W or so.

    The difference between 30kph and 36kph is something like 160W vs 260W. For me, that's the difference between barely ticking over and going fairly balls out.

    Give it a go yourself and see. :)


  • #56
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,445 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Hah, fairly easy to say that 40km/h is doable... actually doing it is not so.
    The effort after 30km/h is exponential as after this point drag makes a huge difference.


  • #57
    DirkVoodoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,507 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    ROK ON wrote: »
    I guess, the aim is trying to increase your power, but am wondering why you average say 36km/h over 16km.

    According to my computer I averaged 30 and a bit km/hr heading from my house to the race on thursday (35km). It cerrtainly didn't feel that hard and I probably had a bit of a tailwind, but my flat TT speed was around 35 km/hr (pathetic I know) and I certainly found that hard going.


  • #58
    teufelswerk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭teufelswerk


    I'm just wondering have you tried to do this TT without any immediate feedback? I know it sounds counterintuitive but I have taken the step on placing my gps in my back pocket and checking it every hour or so. Getting the average for me is all the information that I want. I ride within my limit and have found that the results are similar when I have feedback once an hour versus constantly on my speedo. Could you be getting an information overload for the level that you are at?
    Perhaps trying the time trial as just that (i.e. you and the clock) and forgetting what your computer readings say you are at will assist you in some way?


  • #59
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Thanks for that. Where I am coming from is that you guys race at a higher ave speed for longer.
    So I assumed tha a once off TT a person could go faster than in a race on similar parcours.

    Again I am not trying to belittle any of these things in that they are beyond me. Just trying to put things together.

    The 160 versus 260 w example answers it all.
    Thanks.


  • #60
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    teufelswerk wrote: »
    I'm just wondering have you tried to do this TT without any immediate feedback? I know it sounds counterintuitive but I have taken the step on placing my gps in my back pocket and checking it every hour or so. Getting the average for me is all the information that I want. I ride within my limit and have found that the results. Could you be getting an information overload for the level that you are at?
    Perhaps trying the time trial as just that (i.e. you and the clock) and forgetting what your computer readings say you are at will assist you in some way?

    Not a bad idea. I'm not sure I'd be any faster, but I might get a better appreciation of the physical feedback.

    I find the numbers quite motivating. I hit the lap button every five minutes, and try to hit an average power for each of those intervals. I tend to back off a fraction at the start of each interval, then wind on the power steadily until I'm thinking "only another 2 minutes of this to go", then five minutes passes and I'm on to the next interval.

    What tends to happen on a well paced slightly sub-maximal effort is:

    0-5 mins: keeping a lid on the effort
    5-10 mins: some concentration needed
    10-15 mins: my legs hurt; I'm bored now and want to stop
    15-20 mins: getting into the rhythm now
    20-25 mins: twilight zone where everything blurs together
    last couple of minutes: hammer for the line

    The "want to get off now" point coincides with my HR hitting 180bpm, but after 5 minutes of that I can't feel anything. :pac:


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  • #61
    niceonetom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Where I am coming from is that you guys race at a higher ave speed for longer.
    So I assumed tha a once off TT a person could go faster than in a race on similar parcours.

    Again I am not trying to belittle any of these things in that they are beyond me. Just trying to put things together.

    The 160 versus 260 w example answers it all.
    Thanks.

    Race speed in a group are entirely unrepresentative of what you can achieve on your own. I've averaged over 42kph on the Britas circuit of the Orwell league, and that would be a very slow TT loop given its various drags and corners. I doubt that any individual in the group would be capable of getting a 42kph avg on that course, even with total commitment and full aero gear, but as a group on road bikes it felt reasonably comfortable. The person on the front must be putting out significantly more than their threshold power, but they rarely really need to do so for more than 30 seconds before getting some respite.


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