Velib like bicycle rental kiosks are being constructed in Dublin

BostonB · 08-03-2010 10:49AM

I've seen a few people with helmets and hi viz jacks on the Dublin Bikes. Which means they go out with them planning to get a bike. It must be part of their daily commute. However you can't always preplan when you are going to grab a bike. I think its fine that people are allowed to make their own choices, re helmets.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 10:56AM

droidus wrote: »

So you want to sell to people the feeling that they are safer, whilst simultaneously making them less safe by offering them ill-fitting and possibly damaged helmets??

This is a deeply cynical approach, but apart from that, I reckon the business will last only until someone falls off their bike and then sues the **** out of you when they suffer head injuries.

Well, business is cynical by definition. Watch couple of Jamie Oliver's shows of what are we being fed to find out how are we killing ourselves by only refusing to cook at home and eating the junk we are offered by food businesses all around instead.

And I do not know why "ill-fitting and possibly damaged" (which should not be on purpose or a goal anyway) is worse than none? Own helmet is the best, rental is so so, non is worst, provided we believe in helmets as such.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 10:57AM

BostonB wrote: »

I've seen a few people with helmets and hi viz jacks on the Dublin Bikes. Which means they go out with them planning to get a bike. It must be part of their daily commute. However you can't always preplan when you are going to grab a bike. I think its fine that people are allowed to make their own choices, re helmets.

Thanks for the opinion! That is what we based our idea on. Some people might be glad to have a choice...

droidus · 08-03-2010 11:03AM

Ekaterina wrote: »

And I do not know why "ill-fitting and possibly damaged" (which should not be on purpose or a goal anyway) is worse than none? Own helmet is the best, rental is so so, non is worst, provided we believe in helmets as such.

Wearing a damaged helmet (and some would argue any helmet) is worse because it gives people the illusion that they are less likely to be injured. If the helmet has been damaged even once it's useless and offers no protection whatsoever.

Wearing an ill-fitting helmet is worse for the same reasons, but also because the helmet itself could cause head or neck injury in a fall or collision.

So your equation doesn't work. If you're not offering well fitted and undamaged helmets then it is deeply irresponsible to offer them at all, and unless you have a cast iron EUA then you will eventually end up in court.

Lumen · 08-03-2010 11:07AM

droidus wrote: »

If the helmet has been damaged even once it's useless and offers no protection whatsoever.

That's not true. It still offers abrasion resistance and some impact resistance.

petethedrummer · 08-03-2010 11:11AM

First you need to establish whether helmets are a good idea or not:
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

Thankfully there's a basket on the front of these bikes, so if they introduce helmets to the scheme I'd be able to store it there.

DirkVoodoo · 08-03-2010 11:20AM

Ekaterina wrote: »

Well, business is cynical by definition. Watch couple of Jamie Oliver's shows of what are we being fed to find out how are we killing ourselves by only refusing to cook at home and eating the junk we are offered by food businesses all around instead.

And I do not know why "ill-fitting and possibly damaged" (which should not be on purpose or a goal anyway) is worse than none? Own helmet is the best, rental is so so, non is worst, provided we believe in helmets as such.

Jamie Oliver's own brand stir in sauces are also full of crap - more salt than 10 bags of crisps or seawater. I think you are being sold on something similar to the Nike/Lance partnership - cause related marketing. Jamie got huge attention and publicity doing what some might call admirable work. In return he produces "healthy" food options that people go for first in the supermarket because they remember his brave crusade for school children, despite the evidence that they are worse than most other processed pasta sauces.

Helmets are completely unnecessary and nothing more than personal choice for the DBs. As mentioned, look at paris! Where is the carnage, people dying left right and centre because they aren't wearing helmets? Common sense, respect for the rules of the road and awareness are more important than the faith you are placing in a piece of expanded foam. It is nearly certain that a mandatory helmet scheme for DBs would cause it to crash and burn.

If you want choice, bring your own helmet, nothing is stopping you.

blorg · 08-03-2010 12:07PM

It is true that an impacted helmet is compromised and should be replaced but this is not quite the same as saying it offers no protection whatsoever.

@Ekaterina- from a purely business perspective though I can't see it being viable. People who want helmets will have helmets and I don't see others paying to rent them at any level that would cover the costs involved.

Remember the bike scheme itself is not profit-making, JC Deceaux are effectively being paid to run it on behalf of the council. It wouldn't be there at all as a stand-alone business concern.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:14PM

blorg wrote: »

It is true that an impacted helmet is compromised and should be replaced but this is not quite the same as saying it offers no protection whatsoever.

@Ekaterina- from a purely business perspective though I can't see it being viable. People who want helmets will have helmets and I don't see others paying to rent them at any level that would cover the costs involved.

Remember the bike scheme itself is not profit-making, JC Deceaux are effectively being paid to run it on behalf of the council. It wouldn't be there at all as a stand-alone business concern.

Many people own helmets but do not bring them as it is too much of a hassle for them. Might use rental ones.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:16PM

Lumen wrote: »

That's not true. It still offers abrasion resistance and some impact resistance.

Thanks for the info. Good to know, especially if it comes from a moderator.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:17PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It is nearly certain that a mandatory helmet scheme for DBs would cause it to crash and burn.

If you want choice, bring your own helmet, nothing is stopping you.

Nobody is taking about anything mandatory.

DirkVoodoo · 08-03-2010 12:19PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

Nobody is taking about anything mandatory.

Fair enough, I apologise for that.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:19PM

droidus wrote: »

Wearing an ill-fitting helmet is worse for the same reasons, but also because the helmet itself could cause head or neck injury in a fall or collision.

People are assumed to be cleverer than monkeys and, thus, able to fit the stripes. Otherwise any other rental sports equipment can be concluded to be dangerous. Including bikes. What if people cannot cycle and still use the db's?

blorg · 08-03-2010 12:21PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

Many people own helmets but do not bring them as it is too much of a hassle for them. Might use rental ones.

I would suggest you stick some notional figures together and try to work out how much you would have to charge. I just don't see it being viable. As I said, bear in mind the bike scheme itself is not viable as a standalone business.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:21PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

First you need to establish whether helmets are a good idea or not:
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

Thankfully there's a basket on the front of these bikes, so if they introduce helmets to the scheme I'd be able to store it there.

Thanks for the link!

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:23PM

blorg wrote: »

I would suggest you stick some notional figures together and try to work out how much you would have to charge. I just don't see it being viable. As I said, bear in mind the bike scheme itself is not viable as a standalone business.

I certainly will as soon as I get the survey data from the other group members.

droidus · 08-03-2010 12:35PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

People are assumed to be cleverer than monkeys and, thus, able to fit the stripes. Otherwise any other rental sports equipment can be concluded to be dangerous. Including bikes. What if people cannot cycle and still use the db's?

Yeah, I dont know what I was thinking there. Even monkeys can fit helmet stripes (even if the helmet doesnt fit them), despite the fact that a huge proportion of helmet owners can't fit their helmets properly.

Presumably these are go-faster stripes we're discussing here?

droidus · 08-03-2010 12:37PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Good to know, especially if it comes from a moderator.

You should quote him in your business plan as advocating the rental of damaged helmets as they still help to prevent scrapes.

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:40PM

droidus wrote: »

You should quote him in your business plan as advocating the rental of damaged helmets as they still help to prevent scrapes.

If you were in a war and enemies would be shooting at you: would you rather prefer not to wear a helmet at all or to wear a damaged one?

Ekaterina · 08-03-2010 12:42PM

droidus wrote: »

Yeah, I dont know what I was thinking there. Even monkeys can fit helmet stripes (even if the helmet doesnt fit them), despite the fact that a huge proportion of helmet owners can't fit their helmets properly.

Presumably these are go-faster stripes we're discussing here?

If helmet owners cannot fit their own helmets than the rental helmets would provide no less protection than the owned ones.

Stark · 08-03-2010 12:43PM

Ekaterina wrote:

If you were in a war and enemies would be shooting at you: would you rather prefer not to wear a helmet at all or to wear a damaged one?

Cycling in Dublin is not the same thing as being in a war with people firing bullets at you.

Ekaterina wrote:

If helmet owners cannot fit their own helmets than the rental helmets would provide no less protection than the owned ones.

One of the reasons why helmets aren't compulsory.

Caroline_ie · 08-03-2010 12:44PM

Just to give you something local to compare it with*. I am sure the Phoenix park bike rental offers helmets, however I have rarely seen anyone on the rented bikes wear one.
*I know we are talking about the park, with some lanes and less traffic (although the latter is questionable )

blorg · 08-03-2010 12:50PM

It is common enough to be able to rent a helmet when renting a bike on holiday or whatever, I think naysayers could get over the whole "it could be damaged" thing. Ekaterina asked that we put aside this and consider it from a business point of view.

I just don't think you could cover the costs and infrastructure required while still having a reasonable rental fee.

@Ekaterina- have you thought of how you would operate the helmet rentals? How would the helmets be secured and dispensed, etc. How would payment be taken?

Lumen · 08-03-2010 12:50PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Good to know, especially if it comes from a moderator.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. My moderator status should lend no credibility to my rantings.

droidus · 08-03-2010 12:53PM

Ekaterina wrote: »

If you were in a war and enemies would be shooting at you: would you rather prefer not to wear a helmet at all or to wear a damaged one?

I'm not in a war though.

If I was in a war I wouldn't want armour that had already been damaged, because once its damaged it cant do its job properly. If you get shot whilst wearing a kevlar vest it stops the bullet first time. The second time it doesn't. It may provide some protection against abrasion and light impacts, but its essentially no longer fit for purpose.

If helmet owners cannot fit their own helmets than the rental helmets would provide no less protection than the owned ones.

That's true.

If you had kiosk next to the bike stands with someone who could inspect each helmet on return for damage and ensure that people were fitting their helmets correctly I wouldn't see a problem with any of this, but as your only interested in profit rather than increasing safety for cyclists I imagine that's not the plan.

projectmayhem · 08-03-2010 12:56PM

Not sure if this was raised already but has anybody thought of the fact that rental helmets could be a bit gross? i.e. I wouldn't want to rent a helmet knowing that the person wearing it before me never washed and had greasy hair.

Perhaps I'm a bit odd in that regard but if you're just popping on the Dub Bike to get to a meeting, you may not want to have someones greasy mess mushed into your head.

droidus · 08-03-2010 12:57PM

blorg wrote: »

It is common enough to be able to rent a helmet when renting a bike on holiday or whatever, I think naysayers could get over the whole "it could be damaged" thing. Ekaterina asked that we put aside this and consider it from a business point of view.

I just don't think you could cover the costs and infrastructure required while still having a reasonable rental fee.

@Ekaterina- have you thought of how you would operate the helmet rentals? How would the helmets be secured and dispensed, etc. How would payment be taken?

Well that is the crux. Ive only rented helmets once or twice. Its usually in a shop type environment, numerous helmets were tried on to find the right fit and all were clean and (I was told) regularly inspected for damage, plus I had to report any impacts on return.

That's not what this sounds like to me, though maybe I'm wrong.

Chips Lovell · 08-03-2010 01:13PM

Forget about whether wearing a damaged helmet is a good idea or not for a moment. Irish people are quite litigeous. If someone has an accident wearing a helmet that has already been in a scrape, you are leaving yourself open to being sued. I think a business like this, renting out saftety equipment, would need to insure itself and those costs need to be factored in.

blorg · 08-03-2010 01:17PM

droidus wrote: »

Well that is the crux. Ive only rented helmets once or twice. Its usually in a shop type environment, numerous helmets were tried on to find the right fit and all were clean and (I was told) regularly inspected for damage, plus I had to report any impacts on return.

More to the point it is usually done as a sideline to rental of a bike, and there often when the bike is being rented for a more extended period than the typical <30 minutes of a Dublinbike.

I don't think it would be viable on its own and there would be logistical issues with the sort of turnover a Dublinbike sees.

As for the fit thing there are "unifit" helmets that are adjustable for basically all head sizes. It's not the major issue.

undo · 08-03-2010 01:20PM

While I know very little about bike helmets (I prefer headphones on my head while cycling), I am certain the technical difficulties could be addressed. Any adjustable parts on a helmet could be clearly marked with numbers. When you sign up for the scheme, you have a helmet professionally fitted to your head and get a print-out of the settings that work best for you. When picking up a helmet, you just set all the strips to the numbers on your print-out. If there are actually several types/sizes of helmets, the machine dispensing them could provide you with the one that is best for you.

As for helmets surviving only one impact: I am rather certain there is memory foam that changes color when deformed. So on the inside of the helmet, where you can see the foam (especially after removing a hypothetical hygienic liner), you could quickly check the color to find out whether the helmet has been bumped.

I use dublin bikes for my daily commute and still would not trade my Sennheisers for a helmet. But I really think if someone wanted to, there are ways to ensure they get a well-fitting helmet.

Velib like bicycle rental kiosks are being constructed in Dublin

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