Bertie the champion of the world

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 12:44AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Won't actually fix your post, but the phrase should be "were beaten by vested interests into the mistaken belief that....."

So, the Irish public don't have a mind for themselves ? . . The country didn't start to view property as a short term investment that they could make a lot of money out of ? The banks and government are entirely to blame ? No-one has addressed my earlier analogy . . Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card ?

It's a basic human right to have a roof over your head, however with OTT rents and OTT mortgages, the average "Joe Soap" that you seem to view as a nuisance was caught between a rock and a hard place by all the vested interests......

When did I say I viewed Joe Soap as a nuisance. . Joe's a lovely fella, Sure isn't he gonna pay off my overpriced mortgage for me ?

If you're such a fan of "collective responsibility" and the free market, how come you support one irresponsible section getting bailed out with our cash, while dismissing the rest ?

Much as it suits the socialist agenda being peddled, the banks are not being bailed out because they are friends with Fianna Fail. Banks are being bailed out all over the world because to not bail them out would be incredibly detrimental to the economy.

If our cash was spent well, responsibly, and ethically, then it's a case of "collective responsibility"; but when FF are wasting it or throwing it away, then it's THEIR FAULT.

Even if I accepted this (which I don't) then the at the point which we returned FF to government (2002, 2007) it became collective responsibility again.

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 12:51AM

oh well , okay wrote: »

Sorry but I'll have to disagree . 2000 was ten years ago , their may have been demand then but their certainly isn't now , that well dried up a long time ago.

NAMA is made up of developmental loans it does not cover individual mortgages . It only covers loans taken out by developers , how can consumers be responsible for this . Are "we" responsible because developers paid hugely over the odds for land that they failed to sell to "us" ?

I'll say it again NAMA only covers land bought for development . It does not cover individual mortgages , car loans or credit card debt.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0616/1224248898973.html

In this article the then interim director of NAMA surmises that the top 50 developers in the country are estimated to account for €40-50b of the NAMA debt . Is it really your position that the Irish public in general share responsibility for this debt ? Are you really that naive .

Thank you for the NAMA lesson but I do already understand the principles. . . Guess what . . . that land that you are talking about that the developers borrowed money to buy . . . . they wanted to build houses and apartments on it . . . and it cost so much because there was huge demand for those houses . . . and that huge demand, was driven by consumers and speculators who began to treat property not as someone else described as "a basic right" but rather as an investment . . .

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:22AM

paddyland wrote: »

Ah yes, collective responsibility, where EVERYONE is responsible, but only the ordinary, vulnerable Joe Soap pays the penalty!

Ah yes.....that old chestnut.

But don't dare point out that it applies to FF and their members (as I found out on another thread).

No, "collective responsibility" only applies when it works in FF's favour.

oh well , okay · 13-02-2010 11:33AM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Thank you for the NAMA lesson but I do already understand the principles. . . Guess what . . . that land that you are talking about that the developers borrowed money to buy . . . . they wanted to build houses and apartments on it . . . and it cost so much because there was huge demand for those houses . . . and that huge demand, was driven by consumers and speculators who began to treat property not as someone else described as "a basic right" but rather as an investment . . .

Come on ! is your stance really that because "we" stopped buying houses that "we" are collectively responsible for the over supply of development land that is left ? That to me is the heart of what you're saying .

Developers took a punt and got caught with their hands in the cookie jar , when the music stopped they were left without a chair and somehow you consider it "our" fault . I'd agree that NAMA isn't a bail out for most developers , I'd consider it another bail out for the bankers but I cannot agree that "we" share responsibility for NAMA .

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 12:57PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah yes.....that old chestnut.

But don't dare point out that it applies to FF and their members (as I found out on another thread).

No, "collective responsibility" only applies when it works in FF's favour.

Rubbish . . If you want to refer to views posted by me or others on different threads, do it accurately and post some links . . . I have fully accepted on other threads that Fianna Fail members and voters ought to accept collective responsibility for the policies FF implemented and their outcome . . I just happen to believe that the best way to accept that responsibility is to work to improve the situation (as we currently are). .

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:04PM

oh well , okay wrote: »

Come on ! is your stance really that because "we" stopped buying houses that "we" are collectively responsible for the over supply of development land that is left ? That to me is the heart of what you're saying .

How on earth is that what I am saying . . ?? ?? ??

All I am doing is pointing out the folly of your position that NAMA has everything to do with the developer and nothing to do with the consumer.

oh well, okay wrote:

Developers took a punt and got caught with their hands in the cookie jar , when the music stopped they were left without a chair and somehow you consider it "our" fault . I'd agree that NAMA isn't a bail out for most developers , I'd consider it another bail out for the bankers but I cannot agree that "we" share responsibility for NAMA .

We share responsibility for creating the consumer driven property and general good-time (4x4's, foreign holidays, conservatories . . .) bubble that post bursting left us with a need for NAMA .. .

And if we don't accept our collective role in that then sadly we will end up there again !

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:05PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Rubbish . . If you want to refer to views posted by me or others on different threads, do it accurately and post some links . . . I have fully accepted on other threads that Fianna Fail members and voters ought to accept collective responsibility for the policies FF implemented and their outcome . . I just happen to believe that the best way to accept that responsibility is to work to improve the situation (as we currently are). .

But if ye couldn't see [ ignored/dismissed ? ] the damage it was doing up to now, how do we know that ye can see any potential damage that ye are doing now (e.g. artificially inflating future house prices so that NAMA has a chance of breaking even, making Ireland uncompetitive) ?

And if you are being responsible and are behind your convictions, then FF would let the people decide whether to let you continue to reclaim the ground that your policies lost / damaged.

If you got voted back in (apart from me emigrating) then no-one could complain - democracy at work.

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:07PM

Liam Byrne, seeing as you are so fond of re-posting your questions . . this is the third time of asking . . .

hallelujajordan wrote:

So, the Irish public don't have a mind for themselves ? . . The country didn't start to view property as a short term investment that they could make a lot of money out of ? The banks and government are entirely to blame ? No-one has addressed my earlier analogy . . Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card ?

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:08PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We share responsibility for creating the consumer driven property and general good-time (4x4's, foreign holidays, conservatories . . .) bubble that post bursting left us with a need for NAMA .. .

Can you please stop spouting this FF spin ? :mad:

I have:
A) No 4x4 - it's a 7 year old car

Two foreign holidays in 6 years (one courtesy of RyanAir which cost €10 more because of FF
C) No conservatory

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:10PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But if ye couldn't see [ ignored/dismissed ? ] the damage it was doing up to now, how do we know that ye can see any potential damage that ye are doing now (e.g. artificially inflating future house prices so that NAMA has a chance of breaking even, making Ireland uncompetitive) ?

And if you are being responsible and are behind your convictions, then FF would let the people decide whether to let you continue to reclaim the ground that your policies lost / damaged.

If you got voted back in (apart from me emigrating) then no-one could complain - democracy at work.

But we did get voted back in . . three times in a row while the policies you talk about were already in place . . but you still complain . . . and don't pretend you won't complain in May 2012 when FF win the next General Election. Even if you are posting from the airport

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:13PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

LSo, the Irish public don't have a mind for themselves ? . . The country didn't start to view property as a short term investment that they could make a lot of money out of ? The banks and government are entirely to blame ? No-one has addressed my earlier analogy . . Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card ?

1) Some people did, some people didn't. ALL are being punished by FF.

I already partially answered this by saying that all I wanted is a home.

2) The banks sent out letters for "pre-approved loans"; and while some of us [see #1] binned those, I can't see how you object to people taking money from this and still defend Ahern for taking what was offered to him

In addition, the Government was happy to take in the stamp duty and Ahern's mate as so-called Financial Regulator didn't act.....if there's a need for a Financial Regulator, then why did he not do his job ?

3) No, you can't. But you can't cripple everyone in one blow. By all means, do the right thing re the person who overspent, but likewise do the right thing for those who did the right thing and didn't

To continue your analogy - if you didn't overspend, but your neighbours did - should you have to pay ?

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:13PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Can you please stop spouting this FF spin ? :mad:

I have:
A) No 4x4 - it's a 7 year old car
Two foreign holidays in 6 years (one courtesy of RyanAir which cost €10 more because of FF
C) No conservatory

Good for you . . and can you please stop behaving like you represent the average Irish consumer . . Are you suggesting that

a) New car sales (including 4x4's) did not go through the roof over the last decade
b) The average Irish consumer did not go on more foreign holidays
c) More conservatories / house extensions were not built in the last decade than ever before ?

The sooner you start to look past yourself, the quicker you will be able to understand the concept of collective responsibility.

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:14PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

But we did get voted back in . . three times in a row while the policies you talk about were already in place . . but you still complain . . . and don't pretend you won't complain in May 2012 when FF win the next General Election. Even if you are posting from the airport

In black and white from an FF member : if you don't vote for us then we'll laugh at the thought of you emigrating.

So much for putting the country and its people before the party! :rolleyes:

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:15PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

1) Some people did, some people didn't. ALL are being punished by FF.

I already partially answered this by saying that all I wanted is a home.

2) The banks sent out letters for "pre-approved loans"; and while some of us [see #1] binned those, I can't see how you object to people taking money from this and still defend Ahern for taking what was offered to him

In addition, the Government was happy to take in the stamp duty and Ahern's mate as so-called Financial Regulator didn't act.....if there's a need for a Financial Regulator, then why did he not do his job ?

3) No, you can't. But you can't cripple everyone in one blow. By all means, do the right thing re the person who overspent, but likewise do the right thing for those who did the right thing and didn't

To continue your analogy - if you didn't overspend, but your neighbours did - should you have to pay ?

You still haven't answered my question . . Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card?

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:15PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In black and white from an FF member : if you don't vote for us then we'll laugh at the thought of you emigrating.

So much for putting the country and its people before the party! :rolleyes:

Cheap shot . . and you know it !

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:16PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The sooner you start to look past yourself, the quicker you will be able to understand the concept of collective responsibility.

I'll repeat MY question.

If your neighbour overspends, is it fair that you have to pay ?

"collective responsibility" does not exist.

In fact, given that you choose to overlook all of FF's actions to date in evaluating whether or not they are competent, I don't even think you know the meaning of the word "responsibility".

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:17PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll repeat MY question.

If your neighbour overspends, is it fair that you have to pay ?

"collective responsibility" does not exist.

In fact, given that you choose to overlook all of FF's actions to date in evaluating whether or not they are competent, I don't even think you know the meaning of the word "responsibility".

I think I asked my question first . . I note this is the fifth time and you still haven't answered it ?

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:18PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question . . Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card?

Yes I did. Open your eyes.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

3) No, you can't. But you can't cripple everyone in one blow. By all means, do the right thing re the person who overspent, but likewise do the right thing for those who did the right thing and didn't

As for the "cheap shot".....I didn't misrepresent. I replied / reacted to precisely what you posted.

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2010 01:20PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I think I asked my question first . . I note this is the fifth time and you still haven't answered it ?

Incorrect (as proven above)

But to get us back on topic, I wish I hadn't......not answering fives time is a tactic that works so well for Ahern.

I wonder did you hound him as much for an answer ?

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 01:22PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yes I did. Open your eyes.
.

Apologies, missed that . . so I can't blame the government if I overspend on my credit card, but I can blame the government if I take out a mortgage that I clearly cannot afford or accept a pre-approved loan and take it down to Liffey Valley Renault to buy a new car that I don't need . . . Is that your position ?

oh well , okay · 13-02-2010 02:43PM

Can I blame the government when I overspend on my credit card ?

No you can't it's your responsibility , but apparently when a developer overspends on land it's the consumers fault , go figure !

Biggins · 13-02-2010 02:49PM

oh well , okay wrote: »

No you can't it's your responsibility , but apparently when a developer overspends on land it's the consumers fault , go figure !

That should be post of the week.

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 02:52PM

oh well , okay wrote: »

No you can't it's your responsibility , but apparently when a developer overspends on land it's the consumers fault , go figure !

No it isn't . . . and nor did I ever suggest it was . . . the debts rest entirely with the developers and continue to do so . . . .

I've said that the responsibility for the bubble rests with all of us . . All of us includes the consumer, the developer, the banker and the politician.

danman · 13-02-2010 02:56PM

Maybe I'm being nieve, but I thought that the developer still has to pay for his loan. If he doesn't, he get the asset taken off him.

I'm sick of hearing that he developers are getting money of the taxpayer.
His loans still have to be paid.

hallelujajordan · 13-02-2010 07:43PM

danman wrote: »

Maybe I'm being nieve, but I thought that the developer still has to pay for his loan. If he doesn't, he get the asset taken off him.

I'm sick of hearing that he developers are getting money of the taxpayer.
His loans still have to be paid.

Here - here . . the revisionists on here would have you believe that NAMA = Debt transfer from developer to taxpayer (except they call him Joe because they are only interested in the less well off taxpayer) . . .

. . . the reality is that NAMA = Risk transfer from bank to taxpayer but the debt stays with the developer and the state take responsibility for hunting down the payment.

Biggins · 13-02-2010 07:51PM

danman wrote: »

Maybe I'm being nieve, but I thought that the developer still has to pay for his loan. If he doesn't, he get the asset taken off him.

I'm sick of hearing that he developers are getting money of the taxpayer.
His loans still have to be paid.

I wish that was true but as in the case of Fitzpatrick, heck - he won't even pay the interests!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fitzpatrick-not-paying-off-euro100m-loan-interest-1901222.html

danman · 13-02-2010 07:52PM

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Here - here . . the revisionists on here would have you believe that NAMA = Debt transfer from developer to taxpayer (except they call him Joe because they are only interested in the less well off taxpayer) . . .

. . . the reality is that NAMA = Risk transfer from bank to taxpayer but the debt stays with the developer and the state take responsibility for hunting down the payment.

The poster on here and various media campaigners (Eamon Keane mentions this more than once on every show), bandy about the term "bailout for developers and bankers"

They either don't understand the basic principle of NAMA, in which case they shouldn't comment on it. Or they fully understand but just want to mislead those that don't bother to find out the basic principle.

The banks were given a guarentee last year, in the same way that every other country did. In fact we were the first to do it and every other country followed our lead.

The banks are loosing up to 30% on their original investments with NAMA, and the developers must still pay back the original loans.

Where do the banks and developers benifit from this arrangement?

But that wouldn't suit the naysayers now would it, so they will continue to peddle untruths.

danman · 13-02-2010 07:55PM

Biggins wrote: »

I wish that was true but as in the case of Fitzpatrick, heck - he won't even pay the interests!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fitzpatrick-not-paying-off-euro100m-loan-interest-1901222.html

Unless you don't understand the basics as I've just pointed out, you'll know that he will loose his original investment along with the asset.

How hard is it to understand?

Biggins · 13-02-2010 07:58PM

danman wrote: »

Unless you don't understand the basics as I've just pointed out, you'll know that he will loose his original investment along with the asset.

How hard is it to understand?

I know what your asserting and agree.
I just wish to say that I find such arrogance contemptible and should be pursued and his behaviour not let away with.
He should be held accountable in some fashion instead of being paid off - but that what we do in our country.

I digress the thread though with my useless thoughts... apologies.

IrishTonyO · 13-02-2010 07:59PM

danman wrote: »

Where do the banks and developers benifit from this arrangement?

because they lose 30%, on properties that have lost 40-80%. If the banks weren't benefiting from NAMA, what would the point of it be??????

Bertie the champion of the world

Comments