opinions of reincarnation

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 02:53PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Poor, poor Einstein, His equation has been used to explain just about any nonsense.
Reincarnation probably does not exist. Once those neurons stop firing in your brain, that's it; it's most likely game over - your consciousness is gone forever. Bye Bye!

But perhaps your "soul" will live on!

The Mad Hatter · 02-02-2010 02:56PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Poor, poor Einstein, His equation has been used to explain just about any nonsense.
Reincarnation probably does not exist. Once those neurons stop firing in your brain, that's it; it's most likely game over - your consciousness is gone forever. Bye Bye!

I was about to mention planarian worms, but then I saw the last sentence: "No double-blind experiment has ever reproduced his results." Ah well.

Turtwig · 02-02-2010 02:59PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

But perhaps your "soul" will live on!

So what is the "soul" then?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 03:10PM

Malty_T wrote: »

So what is the "soul" then?

The energy keeping your body alive?

Turtwig · 02-02-2010 03:15PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

The energy keeping your body alive?

That's doesn't make any sense. Chop off my head right now, and my cells in both the severed head and my body will still be alive, but I am dead.

Dave! · 02-02-2010 03:16PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

The energy keeping your body alive?

You mean chemical energy?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 03:24PM

Malty_T wrote: »

That's doesn't make any sense. Chop off my head right now, and my cells in both the severed head and my body will still be alive, but I am dead.

But your enrgy will start 'leaking away', unless I'm seriously mistaken, which has happened before!

Dave! wrote: »

You mean chemical energy?

I'm not sure, I don't think I just mean that, there's chemical and heat energy.

Dades · 02-02-2010 03:26PM

Is the energy keeping marmots alive a soul as well?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 03:30PM

Dades wrote: »

Is the energy keeping marmots alive a soul as well?

I don't see why not.

Turtwig · 02-02-2010 03:31PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

But your enrgy will start 'leaking away', unless I'm seriously mistaken, which has happened before!

Where was it stored though. All my physical systems still exist, so let's posit the hypothetical where my brain is purged of conscience but my body is still completely alive and unharmed. Does the energy still remain?
If so, it's not keeping "me" alive. If not, where does it go?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 03:41PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Where was it stored though. All my physical systems still exist, so let's posit the hypothetical where my brain is purged of conscience but my body is still completely alive and unharmed. Does the energy still remain?
If so, it's not keeping "me" alive. If not, where does it go?

What do you mean by your conciousness being purged? Do you mean that the electrical impulses in your brain cease firing? If so I'm not sure where the energy goes though I'd imagine it's released as heat energy from the top of your head.

Mark Hamill · 02-02-2010 03:50PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

I'm not sure, I don't think I just mean that, there's chemical and heat energy.

What do you mean by chemical energy? What about potential energy, is that not present in the body too? Are you saying the energy of the soul is a combination of chemical energy and heat energy?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 03:54PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What do you mean by chemical energy? What about potential energy, is that not present in the body too? Are you saying the energy of the soul is a combination of chemical energy and heat energy?

I think that if humans do have a soul, it is probably made up of the energy that keeps our bodies going. In the case of potential energy, it depends on what kind. Potetial energy stored in fat/glucose/etc would be part of the soul, whereas potetial energy gained by jumping into the air would not.

Mark Hamill · 02-02-2010 04:06PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

I think that if humans do have a soul, it is probably made up of the energy that keeps our bodies going. In the case of potential energy, it depends on what kind. Potetial energy stored in fat/glucose/etc would be part of the soul, whereas potetial energy gained by jumping into the air would not.

Why, whats the difference? They are both energies that result from the configuration of a particular system, why is it that the system resulting from fat/glucose stored in a body is part of a soul while the system resulting your body's orientation relative position to a gravitational attraction does not? Besidesd this logically leads to the conclusion that poeple with high fat/glucose have more soul (stronger soul/better soul maybe a better way of putting it) than those who dont. What about people with 0% body fat? Do they have no soul?

gaynorvader · 02-02-2010 05:35PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why, whats the difference? They are both energies that result from the configuration of a particular system, why is it that the system resulting from fat/glucose stored in a body is part of a soul while the system resulting your body's orientation relative position to a gravitational attraction does not? Besidesd this logically leads to the conclusion that poeple with high fat/glucose have more soul (stronger soul/better soul maybe a better way of putting it) than those who dont. What about people with 0% body fat? Do they have no soul?

The difference is that potential energy gained from jumping is a result of energy being expended from the soul, you lose it after landing. Those with fat/glucose would have more soul, but it would be latent soul, perhaps more of a kind of storage that the soul could tap into when it needs topping up. People with 0% body fat still have soul but it's in a weakened state.

Thank you, by the way, for making me think about this. It's not a firmly held belief of mine, more of a fancy I've had and it's interesting to explore it more fully.

Turtwig · 02-02-2010 05:45PM

The difference is that potential energy gained from jumping is a result of energy being expended from the soul, you lose it after landing.

(Presumably you regain your soul again when you eat?)

iUseVi · 02-02-2010 05:46PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

The difference is that potential energy gained from jumping is a result of energy being expended from the soul, you lose it after landing. Those with fat/glucose would have more soul, but it would be latent soul, perhaps more of a kind of storage that the soul could tap into when it needs topping up. People with 0% body fat still have soul but it's in a weakened state.

Thank you, by the way, for making me think about this. It's not a firmly held belief of mine, more of a fancy I've had and it's interesting to explore it more fully.

glucose equals soul? I've got some pure glucose in my kitchen I think. Maybe I'll add some to a nice drink. Who knows I might be drinking the soul of Einstein or a pope or someone.

Mark Hamill · 02-02-2010 06:10PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

The difference is that potential energy gained from jumping is a result of energy being expended from the soul, you lose it after landing. Those with fat/glucose would have more soul, but it would be latent soul, perhaps more of a kind of storage that the soul could tap into when it needs topping up.

So jumping up and down weakens your soul? Does that go for all activity? Running, playing football, even reading a book results in potential energy being converted into other energy, do all these weaken your soul? If you think about, at all points of your existence you are in various states of potential energy, converting it other energy as you change from state to state. This means that your whole existence is one big drain on your soul, a soul that constantly needs to be topped by fat and glucose, but then whats the differnce between your soul and your metabolism? When doing exercise, your body, your muscles and organs, also need to be refuled by fat and glucose.

gaynorvader wrote: »

People with 0% body fat still have soul but it's in a weakened state.

So the healthier/more anorexic you are the weaker your soul? So morbidly obese people have strong soul?

Dades · 02-02-2010 06:32PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So morbidly obese people have strong soul?

Just look at Aretha Franklin!

gaynorvader · 03-02-2010 02:38PM

iUseVi wrote: »

glucose equals soul? I've got some pure glucose in my kitchen I think. Maybe I'll add some to a nice drink. Who knows I might be drinking the soul of Einstein or a pope or someone.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So jumping up and down weakens your soul? Does that go for all activity? Running, playing football, even reading a book results in potential energy being converted into other energy, do all these weaken your soul? If you think about, at all points of your existence you are in various states of potential energy, converting it other energy as you change from state to state. This means that your whole existence is one big drain on your soul, a soul that constantly needs to be topped by fat and glucose, but then whats the differnce between your soul and your metabolism? When doing exercise, your body, your muscles and organs, also need to be refuled by fat and glucose.

So the healthier/more anorexic you are the weaker your soul? So morbidly obese people have strong soul?

Glucose and things like that aren't souls themselves, rather they replenish the soul. As does sleep. There's a big difference between being healthy and anorexic. Healthy people are better at generating energy to replenish their souls and so have more resilient souls. Anorexic people are constantly starving their soul, so will have weakened souls. Morbidly obese people will have normal souls, but will have access to the potential energy in their fat cells to replenish their souls in emergency.

Sam Vimes · 03-02-2010 02:42PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Glucose and things like that aren't souls themselves, rather they replenish the soul. As does sleep. There's a big difference between being healthy and anorexic. Healthy people are better at generating energy to replenish their souls and so have more resilient souls. Anorexic people are constantly starving their soul, so will have weakened souls. Morbidly obese people will have normal souls, but will have access to the potential energy in their fat cells to replenish their souls in emergency.

so when you say soul you mean your energy level? In what way is it a soul? My understanding of it is that a soul is something that's within your body but independent of it and that it's supposed to survive your death. Are you making that claim about your definition of a soul?

gaynorvader · 03-02-2010 02:48PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

so when you say soul you mean your energy level? In what way is it a soul? My understanding of it is that a soul is something that's within your body but independent of it and that it's supposed to survive your death. Are you making that claim about your definition of a soul?

Basically, yes, my definition of a soul is your energy level. When you die, your energy does survive. It changes into a different energy and escapes your body. Perhaps there is even some level of consciousness attached to this energy? I don't know, consciousness is so hard to detect and/or measure.

Sam Vimes · 03-02-2010 02:54PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Basically, yes, my definition of a soul is your energy level. When you die, your energy does survive. It changes into a different energy and escapes your body. Perhaps there is even some level of consciousness attached to this energy? I don't know, consciousness is so hard to detect and/or measure.

How does your energy survive? As far as I can see your energy is stored as chemical energy in your cells so how does it survive them?

When the electrical activity in your brain stops, where does it go? Can it not just be like a computer where there's activity until we pull the plug at which point it just stops and doesn't go anywhere?

Dades · 03-02-2010 03:00PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Perhaps there is even some level of consciousness attached to this energy?

But why would anyone even entertain that idea, when nothing suggests that to be the case? It sounds like something L. Ron Hubbard would come up with.

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2010 03:11PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Basically, yes, my definition of a soul is your energy level.

Your energy level is the amount of energy your body has available to it and the efficiency at which it is used. Energy levels are not unique to each human, hell one humans energy level isn't usually stable day to day. The energy given off when you die isn't made up of you, its made up to run you-to run your muscles and organs.

gaynorvader wrote: »

When you die, your energy does survive. It changes into a different energy and escapes your body. Perhaps there is even some level of consciousness attached to this energy? I don't know, consciousness is so hard to detect and/or measure.

But the energy doesn't escape your body (not all of it anyway). Just because you die doesn't mean chemical reactions stop occuring in your organs, decompostion occurs, this needs energy to happen and it will use any energy it can get. Not to mention the bugs that will dine on you when you die, they eat a lot of the latent energy in your dead body in order to survive. Does this mean that these bugs are eating your soul?

gaynorvader · 03-02-2010 03:12PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

How does your energy survive? As far as I can see your energy is stored as chemical energy in your cells so how does it survive them?

When the electrical activity in your brain stops, where does it go? Can it not just be like a computer where there's activity until we pull the plug at which point it just stops and doesn't go anywhere?

Your energy goes out into the wider world. It gets converted to heat energy or something as it leaves your body, I'm not sure exactly how it works only that it doesn't disappear.

Dades wrote: »

But why would anyone even entertain that idea, when nothing suggests that to be the case? It sounds like something L. Ron Hubbard would come up with.

Why would anyone entertain any idea? It's not something I believe to be true, it's only a theory as consciousness is so difficult to measure. Hopefully one day science and prove me right or wrong.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Your energy level is the amount of energy your body has available to it and the efficiency at which it is used. Energy levels are not unique to each human, hell one humans energy level isn't usually stable day to day.

So different humans don't have different levels of energy? An athlete has the same energy as a couch potato?

Mark Hamill wrote:

The energy given off when you die isn't made up of you, its made up to run you-to run your muscles and organs.

Are you saying here that you aren't part of the processes of your body? I'll wait for clarification before replying to my understanding of this.

Mark Hamill wrote:

But the energy doesn't escape your body (not all of it anyway). Just because you die doesn't mean chemical reactions stop occuring in your organs, decompostion occurs, this needs energy to happen and it will use any energy it can get. Not to mention the bugs that will dine on you when you die, they eat a lot of the latent energy in your dead body in order to survive. Does this mean that these bugs are eating your soul?

The energy left behind is the energy not currently being used by the soul. The bugs are eating the energy your soul had set aside (or that had been set aside for your soul, forgive my personification).

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2010 03:51PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Your energy goes out into the wider world. It gets converted to heat energy or something as it leaves your body, I'm not sure exactly how it works only that it doesn't disappear.

No energy ever disappears, its call the law of conservation of energy its not unique to humans, it applies to everything in the universe.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Why would anyone entertain any idea?

Some sort of evidence usually helps, anything, beyond wishful thinking.

gaynorvader wrote: »

It's not something I believe to be true, it's only a theory hypothesis as consciousness is so difficult to measure. Hopefully one day science and prove me right or wrong.

Fixed that for you.

gaynorvader wrote: »

So different humans don't have different levels of energy? An athlete has the same energy as a couch potato?

If that athlete is very tired, then yes he may have the same energy as a couch potato. My point is that an energy level is a measurable variable that changes all the time. Saying that one persons energy level is their soul and therefore unique is like saying that one person height is their soul and therefore unique when it clearly isn't. Your energy level is just a function of the available energy in your body and your bodies efficiency at using it.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Are you saying here that you aren't part of the processes of your body? I'll wait for clarification before replying to my understanding of this.

I am the result of the processes of my body. Change my processes and change me.

gaynorvader wrote: »

The energy left behind is the energy not currently being used by the soul. The bugs are eating the energy your soul had set aside (or that had been set aside for your soul, forgive my personification).

But the energy given out by your body when you do is merely the energy residing in parts of the body that couldn't contain it after the cessation of your metabolism, ie its exactly the same as any other energy in your body, it just happened to be in a place where the most kinetically/thermodynamically stable option was for it to be expelled from your body.
Basically electrical energy in your brain is converted to heat energy, which is lost into the atmosphere (like the heat energy in your body is normal lost, throught out your life) while chemical energy is eaten by bugs.

gaynorvader · 03-02-2010 04:14PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No energy ever disappears, its call the law of conservation of energy its not unique to humans, it applies to everything in the universe.

I am aware of that, I was pointing that out to Sam Vimes in answer to his question "where does the energy go when you die".

Mark Hamill wrote:

Some sort of evidence usually helps, anything, beyond wishful thinking.

Evidence is not necessary for the creation of an idea, only for putting belief into it.

Mark Hamill wrote:

Fixed that for you.

Thank you, you're quite correct. I think hypothesis might even be too strong a word, it's more postulation (I hope that's the right word).

Mark Hamill wrote:

If that athlete is very tired, then yes he may have the same energy as a couch potato. My point is that an energy level is a measurable variable that changes all the time. Saying that one persons energy level is their soul and therefore unique is like saying that one person height is their soul and therefore unique when it clearly isn't. Your energy level is just a function of the available energy in your body and your bodies efficiency at using it.

And in that case, the athlete's spirit would be in a state of weakness. A person's energy level comes back at different speeds and can be higher than someone else's can be. The idea that a person's energy is their soul is an hypothesis I've been developing to explain religion's idea that there is a soul. It's merely an intellectual diversion down the path of 'what if'.

Mark Hamill wrote:

I am the result of the processes of my body. Change my processes and change me.

But you believe you have no control over the processes of your body?

Mark Hamill wrote:

But the energy given out by your body when you do is merely the energy residing in parts of the body that couldn't contain it after the cessation of your metabolism, ie its exactly the same as any other energy in your body, it just happened to be in a place where the most kinetically/thermodynamically stable option was for it to be expelled from your body.
Basically electrical energy in your brain is converted to heat energy, which is lost into the atmosphere (like the heat energy in your body is normal lost, throught out your life) while chemical energy is eaten by bugs.

And some day, your energy, that made up your being will make up the being of someone/something else.

rugbyman · 03-02-2010 04:30PM

Whew, thats some transformation from a question about the maybe ness of re incarnation, to energy seeping from bodies.

I was an athiest untill I read on Boards that Atheism could be regarded as a form of belief so now am back to a full fledged Agnostic!

over the years I have seen /read several articles about people who believed they were " someone". The one that springs to mind was on the Late Late, a girl who grew up on the borders of England /Wales, had no Irish relatives but drew pictures of a ruined Church which turned out to be near Malahide. Story went on about a mother who went to the pier each day to watch out for her drowned son.....

Another about Indian child taken to a wedding and knew everyone there etc.

I have spent my life deriding stories about Chinese restaur ants serving dog, wedding guests being videoed while robbing the money, etc, etc, perhaps the above stories are in that category, but are readable..
Regards,

Rugbyman

liamw · 03-02-2010 04:36PM

rugbyman wrote: »

I was an athiest untill I read on Boards that Atheism could be regarded as a form of belief so now am back to a full fledged Agnostic!

So your belief or lack of belief hasn't changed but you've changed your title?

And why did you believe whoever told you that athiesm was a belief system?

opinions of reincarnation

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