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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • #152
    The Word Is Bor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    AFAIK the pig farmer is from Mitchelstown.


  • #153
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    indeed your right, Batt o Keefe is a Cork North West TD not Ned.


  • #154
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    still doesn't beat Ned O Keefe telling one district of his constituency that he wouldnt help them in their quest for upgrading a delapadated school as a punishment for that area not voting for him in numbers.

    kind of Zimbabwe type politics there....:confused:


  • #155
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    corktina wrote: »
    kind of Zimbabwe type politics there....:confused:
    yup
    East Cork TD Ned O’Keeffe has said Rathcormac National School should not be a priority for funding and that it has a “fabulous” layout of Portakabins.
    ......
    He explained that he had not received votes in the area when he ran for election to the Dail in 2007.

    “I was contacted by a representative for the parents’ council and told her straight out my position. Des O’Malley used to do the same. All things being equal, I asked her why I should look after the people of Rathcormac if they didn’t look after me? I told her there was no funding available.”
    http://www.publicinquiry.eu/2009/07/02/ned-okeeffe-let-them-eat-cake:/

    and
    “He said that he had no votes in Rathcormac and that he would only speak to people in places where he had votes. He said that as far as Fianna Fail were concerned Rathcormac was ‘no use to us’ and asked me who I voted for,” Mrs O’Flynn (chairperson of Rathcormac’s Scoil Bhride Parents' Council) said.
    http://www.mytown.ie/town4,fermoy/news370,okeeffe-rebuttal-stuns-rathcormac.html

    It might be a little off topic to be talking about schools but it shows how in Ireland getting your infrastructure for an area is a very political matter, or Zimbabwean style politics maybe too!

    And you do always have to suspect whether roads are planned on the number of votes to be gained rathen than the number of potential cars to use it.
    (thinking the waterford motorway here!!! )


  • #156
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    ..and even more so of the (nearly) existance of both the M7 AND M8 when either plus the M20 would have done the job fine...looking at the map they run either side of the same mountain range...


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  • #157
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The Word Is Bor wrote: »
    'Hot off the presses' from The Leader with "an exclusive"

    Where are they going with an exclusive, I knew this back a few months ago when the PPP 2nd tranche was revised. The Galway Outer bypass seems to be taking its place as well as the M11 shoving it back a bit.

    See here:

    http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/PublicPrivatePartnership/file,16119,en.pdf


  • #158
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    And the reason the Galway bypass has replaced it is twofold -

    1) CPOs are cheaper
    2) Its bogged down in the courts so probably wont be CPOed for ages

    I'm not surprised TBH that the M20 has been bumped, its a much-needed scheme but the cost of the land would be huge, even though it has reduced in price. That said, if money is being taken from the pension fund (like for MN and Interconnector) a bit should be found for this surely.

    Edit: And the chances of the Cork NRR being built seperatly are probably low. Even lower for the Adare bypass, as it is inexorably hooked into the M20 project due to a stupid route selection. So no Adare bypass until the M20 is done.


  • #159
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Edit: And the chances of the Cork NRR being built seperatly are probably low. Even lower for the Adare bypass, as it is inexorably hooked into the M20 project due to a stupid route selection. So no Adare bypass until the M20 is done.

    If you were into conspiracy theories, one might suggest the new N21 Adare Bypass route was chosen deliberately to depend on the M20 so that the Adare Bypass wouldn't have to go ahead anytime soon either.


  • #160
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    tech2 wrote: »
    Where are they going with an exclusive, I knew this back a few months ago when the PPP 2nd tranche was revised. The Galway Outer bypass seems to be taking its place as well as the M11 shoving it back a bit.

    Yup. Bit of a scramble for shrinking funds going on :(.

    Being entirely parochial about it I must point out the the bit of the N11 between Rathnew and Arklow is notoriously deadly and was ready to go (land acquired etc) since about 2005 when the pols deferred it to allow the prioritisation of some other road (was it the Ennis bypass?).

    Don't have the stats but I'd imagine the N11 is busier than Cork - Limerick. And dangerouser. :cool:


  • #161
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭db


    I drove from Limerick to Cork recently and as I was heading for East Cork I decided to travel via Mitchelstown and join up with the M8, thus avoiding the bottlenecks in Charleville, Mallow and on the North Ring in Cork. I was towing a caravan so i was keeping a fairly slow speed. It took me well under two hours to reach Middleton instead of up to 3 hours using the N20. Most routes through Cork go via the Dunkettle junction, either out the N25 or through the tunnel.

    Instead of building the M20 from Limerick to Cork, why not build a motorway from Limerick to join up with the M8 between Cahir and Mitchelstown ? This would also go a long way towards linking Limerick and Waterford.


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  • #162
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    For a start - even without traffic from Limerick, Mallow-Cork would need upgraded anyway (most of the traffic is local/commuter).

    Second, M8 north of Cork is likely to have enough traffic without adding Limerick traffic into the mix - better to have separate approaches to the city.

    Third - from north of a Mallow bypass to the current end of the M20 is 40 km through easy enough terrain. From the N7 SRR/N24 to the M8, either along the line of the N24 or the regional roads to Mitchelstown, is about 55km through more difficult terrain.


    All in all, the suggestion seems like a nice idea on paper/map but only if you don't even give cursory analysis to it. It's almost in the same league as suggesting Dublin-Cork should have gone via Waterford to allow one less motorway.


  • #163
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Zoney wrote: »
    For a start - even without traffic from Limerick, Mallow-Cork would need upgraded anyway (most of the traffic is local/commuter).

    There's nothing to stop that road being upgraded on a limited basis to cater for bottlenecks and safety improvements.

    Zoney wrote: »
    Second, M8 north of Cork is likely to have enough traffic without adding Limerick traffic into the mix - better to have separate approaches to the city.

    Why? The combined daily traffic count for the N20 at Rathduff (17,000) and M8 at Glanmire (19,000) is under 40,000. The M8 is well capable of handling this, albeit with an upgrade to the Dunkettle Interchange.

    Don't forget that Dublin has only one approach road from Cork, Limerick and Waterford... Cork should be able to handle one approach road from Dublin and Limerick/Galway. Anyway, the N20 is still going to be there as an alternative route if needed.

    Zoney wrote: »
    Third - from north of a Mallow bypass to the current end of the M20 is 40 km through easy enough terrain. From the N7 SRR/N24 to the M8, either along the line of the N24 or the regional roads to Mitchelstown, is about 55km through more difficult terrain.

    OK, I concede to you on the terrain thing, but the alternative route is only about 15 km longer, and has the advantage of providing an upgrade of nearly half the N24, another key national route (Waterford/Rosslare to Limerick/Galway/Sligo) for "free"!

    Zoney wrote: »
    All in all, the suggestion seems like a nice idea on paper/map but only if you don't even give cursory analysis to it. It's almost in the same league as suggesting Dublin-Cork should have gone via Waterford to allow one less motorway.

    You're saying that as if that latter proposal was self-evidently idiotic, but I seem to remember that it was proposed by some transport planner or other with serious international experience, and endorsed by, among others, Frank McDonald of the Irish Times.

    That route would have made way more sense than building both the M8 and M9. Here's why:
    Disadvantage (singular, because I can only find one):
    - it would have added 30km (19 miles remember) to the Dublin-Cork journey.
    Advantages:
    - Provide a Dublin-Waterford and Cork-Waterford link in addition to the road's primary purpose.
    - Save €4bn (open to correction on this), by doing away with the need for the M9.
    - Save maybe half a billion again by integrating the new Suir crossing into the Dublin-Cork motorway.
    - Cut about an hour off the Dublin-Cork run (as it was with the old N8)

    We can't turn back the clock on the stupid decision to replicate the old national primary routes with motorways rather than building a separate network from scratch, but we can avoid making the same mistakes when we go to connect the main cities outside Dublin.


  • #164
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    fricatus wrote: »
    There's nothing to stop that road being upgraded on a limited basis to cater for bottlenecks and safety improvements.




    Why? The combined daily traffic count for the N20 at Rathduff (17,000) and M8 at Glanmire (19,000) is under 40,000. The M8 is well capable of handling this, albeit with an upgrade to the Dunkettle Interchange.

    Don't forget that Dublin has only one approach road from Cork, Limerick and Waterford... Cork should be able to handle one approach road from Dublin and Limerick/Galway. Anyway, the N20 is still going to be there as an alternative route if needed.




    OK, I concede to you on the terrain thing, but the alternative route is only about 15 km longer, and has the advantage of providing an upgrade of nearly half the N24, another key national route (Waterford/Rosslare to Limerick/Galway/Sligo) for "free"!




    You're saying that as if that latter proposal was self-evidently idiotic, but I seem to remember that it was proposed by some transport planner or other with serious international experience, and endorsed by, among others, Frank McDonald of the Irish Times.

    That route would have made way more sense than building both the M8 and M9. Here's why:
    Disadvantage (singular, because I can only find one):
    - it would have added 30km (19 miles remember) to the Dublin-Cork journey.
    Advantages:
    - Provide a Dublin-Waterford and Cork-Waterford link in addition to the road's primary purpose.
    - Save €4bn (open to correction on this), by doing away with the need for the M9.
    - Save maybe half a billion again by integrating the new Suir crossing into the Dublin-Cork motorway.
    - Cut about an hour off the Dublin-Cork run (as it was with the old N8)

    We can't turn back the clock on the stupid decision to replicate the old national primary routes with motorways rather than building a separate network from scratch, but we can avoid making the same mistakes when we go to connect the main cities outside Dublin.

    I think the way they built it was spot on, except for the prioritising of certain routes like the M9 and M3. I for one wouldn't have liked an extra 30km every single time I drove Dublin-Cork. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to cite the Naas Road as an approach road for Cork to aspire to.


  • #165
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Good thread, but let's try to keep it focused more on the M20/M8 rather than on an evaluation of the interurban programme as a whole.

    For that debate, there is a pretty good thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055321476


  • #166
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,716 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I suggested something similar on a previous thread about this - there seems to be a fairly flat direct route here:
    http://tinyurl.com/m8zzbe


  • #167
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    I for one wouldn't have liked an extra 30km every single time I drove Dublin-Cork.

    Well obviously not, but the extra distance is marginal, and the benefits are huge. You have to drive an extra 19 miles, but we as taxpayers save €4 bn by not insisting on "direct route" motorways everywhere, and by being clever with our resources.

    While there may be some merit in having a direct motorway from Dublin to Cork, there is no merit in building an M20, M24 and M25 when you could connect Cork, Limerick and Waterford quite easily by building a motorway roughly along the N24 corridor. That way you get:
    Cork-Limerick: M8-M24 west (maybe 20 kms longer than the M20)
    Limerick-Waterford: M24 (practically a perfect direct route)
    Cork-Waterford: M8-M24 east (28 kms longer, but only 1h 15 compared to 2h on the current route)
    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Also, I wouldn't be so quick to cite the Naas Road as an approach road for Cork to aspire to.

    No of course not. My point was that the M8 is well able to handle its own traffic volumes, plus those of the N20.


  • #168
    Reenascreena
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭Reenascreena


    Irrelevant what route is proposed I think:

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/motorway-put-off-indefinitely-1876950.html

    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Cash-shortage-halts-M20-between.5606028.jp

    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Confusion-over-34deferral34-of-new.5614739.jp


  • #169
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    Confusion over "deferral" of new M20 motorway to Cork
    ...according to Cork County Council - the lead Authority for the motorway scheme - as far as they are concerned work on the motorway project is on track.

    "The bottom line is we will be submitting the Motorway Order and associated documentation in the coming months. We are hopeful and confident that subject to statutory proceeding and funding the construction phase will take place in early 2011," said the spokesperson.

    In response Mr O'Neill acknowledged that Cork County Council would be proceeding with all statutory regulations and explained that it was the prioritising of two other planned national road scheme improvements meant that the M20 scheme would be deferred to a later day.

    He could not say when the date would be and added that the key ingredient would be funding.
    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Confusion-over-34deferral34-of-new.5614739.jp


  • #170
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    This is one of the reasons why recessions are often a godsend in terms of infrastructure planning. It's not just that they allow you to get a blast of planning permissions throught the stocks, and ready to roll when things pick up (as well as get any other legislative work out of the way - as happened in 2001-02), but you also get to evaluate programmes properly before committing the taxpayers cold hard cash.

    Theres a lot to be said for this idea (more than can be said for Mr Nix's ideas about the broader inter urban programme), the benefits have been set out already.

    There are three arguments against this option that I can think of.

    1. the towns of Mallow and Charleville (Mallow is over 10,000 people after all) don't get the benefit of the Motorway per se (apart from the removal of traffic from their streets in the case of Charleville) - I know the primary role of the M-way is long distance inter city travel, but serving strategic towns on the route is also critical (Mallow is a Gateway in the NSS also, even if Cork CC have slightly different ideas). Chosing this option would mean changing a load of Regional Development Plans, and causing a lot of political issues.
    2. There's the Atlantic Corridor issue - this road is part of a broader policy that is supposedly aimed at leveraging the strengths of the 3 cities (and Waterford :) ) on the route on a complementary basis. Essentially aiming to create a virtual critical mass, in other words (like the Midlands tri-town area, only this one actually has the scale to have a faint hope of working). You can make the argument that the 'corridor' doesn't have to be a straight line, and that Fermoy can be easily switched in instead of Mallow, but Mallow is much larger, and has better rail connections ...
    3. Traffic management. The M8 from Cork to Mitchestown isn't built or designed to handle those volumes of traffic, nor is the Dunkettle interchange, (or the tunnel, or the SRR, but these would be less affected). There could be major infrastructural work required to facilitate this option that would negate the savings associated with a shorter length of M-way. And I would imagine that there would be greater additionality associated with a broader spread of quality infrastructure in the harbour region, rather than having further investment pumped into recently upgraded roads and junctions. Or in other words, what would people prefer, the current SRR (with revised junctions) and a NRR, or a 3-4 lane SRR alone? That said, of course, some of this work will have to be done anyways - not least revising Dunkettle.

    I really don't think the M8-M24 argument stacks up in the same way though, not least because a lot of the traffic travelling Cork-Waterford will orginate/be destined for locations along the N25 corridor (Midleton/Carrigtwohill/Little Island/Tivoli). Leaving aside the fact that the N25 is already DC as far as Midleton, there's not really much point making that traffic double back in the wrong direction, then head North, and then turn back south (if leaving Cork), adds mileage and CO2 footprint, for not much savings in terms of distance. On existing roads, its 34km longer from city centre to city centre already.

    There's also the fact that East Cork is quite densely populated, and flat, and the route from Caher to Waterford is most definitely neither of those things. Running an M24 along the line of the existing road would be a nightmare by comparison (although you could use the excuse to demolish Carrig-on-Suir).

    As a complete aside, does the N25 east of Midleton really need to be D2M/HQDC? I would have thought that standard dual carraige way would have been more than adequate?


  • #171
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Yeah I read that one. The NRA say 'no cash', Cork County Council are saying 'we are doing the statutory stuff anyway like the Motorway Order'. A paper hypes it all up.


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  • #172
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    I'm guessing that any N25 upgrades east of Midleton will be 2+2. POSSIBLY HQDC to Youghal, but 2+2 after that. Again, thats guesswork really.


  • #173
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    building the M24 from Limerick to the M8 is 55km of motorway through empty countryside, the rough terrain of this route does not just suggest difficulties for Mway construction, but also suggests there is no major centres of population to use the new motorway!.

    The M20 projects will bypass several current bottlenecks, upgrade the woeful 2+1 Mallow-Rathduff experiment and provide a northern bypass of Cork. Thats on top of the idea of 'connecting' the countries urban areas.

    The last point on connecting the nations urban areas is the key one, M24 phase 1 fills this criteria and nothing else, but the M20 projects will fulfil several national and regional objectives, though even then in the context of limited finances and low traffic numbers, there are more critical projects to fund.

    Instead of wasting money on attempting to establish an M24 corridor, perhaps it is instead more conceivable to rejuvenate the very much under threat Lim Jtn. - Waterford railway line? it seems pointless to let this go into terminal decline whilst pushing for yet another greenfield motorway through rural Tipp.


  • #174
    riskyOz
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭riskyOz


    db wrote: »
    I drove from Limerick to Cork recently and as I was heading for East Cork I decided to travel via Mitchelstown and join up with the M8, thus avoiding the bottlenecks in Charleville, Mallow and on the North Ring in Cork. I was towing a caravan so i was keeping a fairly slow speed. It took me well under two hours to reach Middleton instead of up to 3 hours using the N20. Most routes through Cork go via the Dunkettle junction, either out the N25 or through the tunnel.

    Instead of building the M20 from Limerick to Cork, why not build a motorway from Limerick to join up with the M8 between Cahir and Mitchelstown ? This would also go a long way towards linking Limerick and Waterford.
    Midleton has to be the most commonly mis-spelt towns in Ireland :D


  • #175
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    RiskyOz - maybe, but that's the old spelling(check Griffiths valuation). Not sure when it changed, but I suspect that a rising nationalism, and the fact that 'Middleton' sounds very english, had something to do with it.

    On the railway line issue - not sure about the Limerick-Waterford line, although a revised timetable for a trial period would be a useful way of finding out what demand is actually out there.

    Another possibility for the distant future is to reopen the railway line through Buttevant, which would allow a much faster rail link between Cork and Limerick - Cork CC put this forward as part of their submission to the Gateway Fund.


  • #176
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Another possibility for the distant future is to reopen the railway line through Buttevant, which would allow a much faster rail link between Cork and Limerick - Cork CC put this forward as part of their submission to the Gateway Fund.
    I think you mean between Patrickswell and Charleville - Buttevant is further south on the existing Cork-Dublin mainline. That railway line no longer exists and to bring any line south of Patrickswell would be tricky due to a) the motorway/N21, and b) the fact that the existing Foynes line is at the same grade as the motorway and close/parallel to it.

    There would of course be advantages - but it would really only be something to be considered if at some stage in the long-term, Limerick-Adare on the Foynes line was open properly again and upgraded for commuter traffic.


  • #177
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    If we wanted to rationalise the motorways in the manner suggested in some of the posts above, it should've been done from the outset.

    M20 (and CNRR) should be built as planned. The possible savings aren't significant enough to justify the more convoluted route.

    It is has as much merit (if not more) as schemes such as the M18 and M9, and considering the style of network we've decided to go for (linking cities directly with a motorway each), there is no point over-complicating the final piece of the puzzle by turning it into an awkward M8 spur.


  • #178
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Zoney, sorry, you are correct. The line goes/went from Charleville to Patricks Well Junction, with stations originally at Bruree, Rosstemple and Crooom.

    Reopening it is very much a long term idea to be honest - its inclusion into the bid by Cork LAs has all the hallmarks of a red herring, designed to ensure that there was no real competition to the preferred project - that of a new bridge over the Lee.

    Bluntguy - like you say, it's easy to suggest that the number of Motorways should have been rationalised, but the routes were selected for a range of reasons. And as the discussion here has shown, topography and extant population/economic geography often play as important a role in CBAs as do relatively simple factors like the length of Motorways. Just because it's shorter, doesn't mean its better :pac:

    It would be interesting to see a thorough analysis of the option, but like you say, it doesn't seem to stack up.


  • #179
    KerranJast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭KerranJast


    Whatever happens with the M20, the road from Mallow to Croom is in dire need of widening. Too many people are dieing on it every year especially around Bruff and Buttevant.


  • #180
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    I cant see how people get killed around Buttevant. Its windy, go slowly and dont overtake.

    Bruff I can understand, theres a deceptively straight bit but if you're overtaking and someone pulls out you're screwed.


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  • #181
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Yeah I read that one. The NRA say 'no cash', Cork County Council are saying 'we are doing the statutory stuff anyway like the Motorway Order'. A paper hypes it all up.

    In fairness I think Cork County Council are doing the right thing here, by doing all the ground work, they are ensuring that when cash becomes available, there is no excuse for it not to go ahead straight away.


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