The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 03:24AM

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

What top locks and hookers are you bringing through?

Apart from POC, DOC, MOD in the Irish squad and Ryan (capped this year), we have Foley and Nagle coming through, both seriously talented players.

At hooker, we have Flannery, Fogs, Varley (back from Wasps), Slattery, Essex, Sherry, and Cronin (the best of them) in Connacht. A munster oldboy, John Fogarty is playing with Leinster.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 03:28AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Donncha Ryan's like 25? I'm unaware of any other lock.

The only hookers I know of are Cronin at Connacht and the Fogartys who are pretty much all in their mid-20s?

As for MOD, squad player, meh, fcuk that. He's too old to be at Munster. If he had ambition he'd be leading the line for another club because he's good enough to start for most non-amazing top division teams.

Munster have no young out-halves, no wingers, one centre and no full backs. Nor are there props, second rows or flankers. That's ludicrous!

Munster should produce half the talent Leinster or Ulster do and they're not doing that. That's a coaching problem...

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

It's nothing to me if you don't watch enough AIL to rate players like Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, O'Donnell or Grace, but they are all serious prospects.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

20-06-2009 03:29AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

It's nothing to me if you don't watch enough AIL to rate players like Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, O'Donnell or Grace, but they are all serious prospects.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

Because we identify them and actaully bring them through the academy,instead of calling them AIL prospects and letting them rot in the AIL.The best Munster prospects play in the AIL the best Leinster ones dont,hence the division in standards.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Apart from POC, DOC, MOD in the Irish squad and Ryan (capped this year), we have Foley and Nagle coming through, both seriously talented players.

Well then we have O'Kelly,Cullen,Toner and Casey.At least 2 of whom should be in the Irish squad.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 03:42AM

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

Because we identify them and actaully bring them through the academy,instead of calling them AIL prospects and letting them rot in the AIL.The best Munster prospects play in the AIL the best Leinster ones dont,hence the division in standards.

It's more than just that though, the small number of players Leinster cream off the top shouldn't lead to the Leinster clubs being so poor, what with the massive pool of players and all....

Like I've been saying, Munster don't see it as letting players rot in the AIL, they are learning their trade. You mightn't like it, but it's proven extremely good for developing players.

Size=everything · 20-06-2009 11:28AM

I think the difference is whilst amazo is naming underage players who may or may not make it (some of whom werent even deemed good enough to make the Irish under 20s squad!) I and others have named well established young players from Leinster. Players who have already shown they are good enough to stay professional. Amazo says McCarthy wasn't picked for the Irish under 20s because 'he isnt sure whether he wants to go pro or not' well I can catergorically say for a fact that isnt true he went to the training sessions and was ****e tbh. Barnes another player mentioned by amazo only got called up to the Irish under 20s when Spence got injured ffs! And Nagle was nowhere near the squad! Yet these are the players being mentioned when amazo talks of Munsters best prospects. Now I think we can all see theres a difference between players such as Healy,Toner,Sexton,Heaslip,O'Brien,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,McFadden,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Felix Jones etc. and the players mentioned by amazo who cant even make the Irish youth squads.

Like honestly you are mentioning players who can't make the Irish under 20s squad against : the best loosehead in Ireland right now, arguably the most in form outhalf, 3 lions players, the best prospect at 6 in the country, the top try scorer in the Magners League etc.

And you tell me you can't see the difference in class? You tell me that Munster are on a similar pegging to Leinster in regards to development? Come off it. The fact that players such as Buckley (28), Ryan (26) are mentioned as prospects says a lot.

Honestly how anyone can argue that Munster are anywhere near Leinster in youth production is beyond me. Its a problem and some posters here are letting their provincial bias get in the way

danthefan · 20-06-2009 11:29AM

Blackrock and Clontarf were hardly bad this season, to be fair. I know the club game has been dominated by Munster clubs anyway.

Size=everything · 20-06-2009 11:47AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

Well currently Leinster have the best loosehead in the country at 21, a current Lion test starter, the biggest prospect backrow player in Sean O'Brien and the biggest prospect at second row in Toner. All these players have ML, Heinken Cup and International experience and don't ply their trade in the AIL by the way.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

Because Leinster brings its talent through the academy. I know lads in the academy that find it hard to play AIL on top of all the training sessions they have to do. The fact is Leinster's academy concentrates on it's players far more than any other province and I have feeling thats why we have seen such great talents emerge as of late.

Size=everything · 20-06-2009 11:50AM

danthefan wrote: »

Blackrock and Clontarf were hardly bad this season, to be fair. I know the club game has been dominated by Munster clubs anyway.

Whats funny is St.Marys and Clontarf won the same amount of games as their Munster counterparts the league actually came down to point difference. Meanwhile Blackrock won 10 games to the winners 11 games. Hardly the massive gulf that is being made out by some here in the AIL

And thats ignoring the fact that most of the club's best young players can't play regularly due to regular trainings and matches for Leinster Academy.

And theres a lot more players Leinster clubs have lost due to the players being deemed good enough to play provincial rugby than in Munster. Munster clubs lost Keith Earls in the last few years meanwhile Leinster clubs lost : Healy,Toner,McFadden,Sexton,Sean O'Brien,Keatley,Fionn Carr,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip and thats excluding the fact that whilst Munster A play people like MOD, Nick Williams, Horgan, Puccirieallo etc. Leinster A mainly play their youth so you can add Madigan,McKinley,Paul O'Donaghue,Felix Jones, Royce Burke Flynn,Jamie Hagan, Harris Wright, Keating, Ryan, McGrath etc. to that list. Now honestly tell me Munster clubs have lost that kind of class.

danthefan · 20-06-2009 11:56AM

Size=everything wrote: »

Whats funny is St.Marys and Clontarf won the same amount of games as their Munster counterparts the league actually came down to point difference. Meanwhile Blackrock won 10 games to the winners 11 games. Hardly the massive gulf that is being made out by some here in the AIL

And thats ignoring the fact that most of the club's best young players can't play regularly due to regular trainings and matches for Leinster Academy.

This season that's true but if you look at the past winners:

1991 Cork Constitution
1992 Garryowen
1993 Young Munster
1994 Garryowen
1995 Shannon
1996 Shannon
1997 Shannon
1998 Shannon
1999 Cork Constitution
2000 St Mary's College
2001 Dungannon
2002 Shannon
2003 Ballymena
2004 Shannon[a]
2005 Shannon
2006 Shannon
2007 Garryowen
2008 Cork Constitution
2009 Shannon[c]

I know a lot of that isn't wholely relevant to this discussion because it's to do with academy structures (which have developed over time since professionalism) but there's only 1 Leinster winner in there.

anonymous_joe · 20-06-2009 11:57AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's more than just that though, the small number of players Leinster cream off the top shouldn't lead to the Leinster clubs being so poor, what with the massive pool of players and all....

Just to answer this:

Youth players are rarely going to win titles in any sport. Whether Arsenal in football or UCD in rugby. Experience matters a lot more in rugby than most sports. A lot of big Munster clubs have good teams.

I'd also be curious about the numbers in the clubs themselves.

ANd didn't Clontarf do really well this season, with Leinster's O'Donohue being outstanding?

Like I've been saying, Munster don't see it as letting players rot in the AIL, they are learning their trade. You mightn't like it, but it's proven extremely good for developing players.

The AIL's a solid-ish league, but my take on the issue would be this - Leinster and Ulster both have young players who are capable of getting into the team, and not just into empty positions.

Shane Horgan and Girvan Dempsey are Ireland internationals, Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney are 21/22. That's not a case of a team with space.

You've mentioned how Munster have a more 'settled' team, but Munster have a backline this and last season for the first time I'm aware of. The only Munster boys playing in the Munster backline (not the halfbacks) are Murphy, Hurley, Earls and... Lifemi O'Mafi? Rua MacTipoki? That's where there's an issue.

It may come as a surprise to some, but most non-Munster fans don't want to see you lot fcuked when everyone retires in 2011. Is Donncha Ryan really good enough to replace DOC and POC right now? Is there someone to replace Horan? Will Cronin come back for Flannery? Who replaces Wallace and Quinlan? John Hayes? Don't tell me Buckley can replace Hayes, Hayes is a class above him. Those are problem areas, and unless Munster are just going to sign in foreign talent, what'll they do?

Stev_o · 20-06-2009 11:58AM

Hopefully though this Anglo-Celtic club competition will help to give the quaility players in Div 1 high exposure to more demanding games.

RuggieBear · 20-06-2009 12:01PM

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

Stev_o · 20-06-2009 12:05PM

RuggieBear wrote: »

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I say the problem for Munster (which has been said a few times but not fully) is that while they dominate the AIL they aren't taking advantage of this dominance and progressing these players through the ranks. Now of course let's not get carried away with ourselves we all know that very few people will end up playing for their province on a regular basis and only a select few make it through each year. Leinster seem to have the conveyor belt going while Munsters clearly just have theirs in a circle with no real drop off point.

Size=everything · 20-06-2009 12:06PM

RuggieBear wrote: »

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I am only mentioning provincial bias because I am astounded that posters are actually trying to counter players such as Kearney,Fitzgerald and Heaslip with young lads who didnt even make the Irishunder 20s!!! But I will keep my opinions to myself fro now on. However if the players are taking longer to come through due to the club game then surely thats a problem? Its shortening their careers and taking them longer to develop. If Earls was at Leinster I'd hazard a quess he'd be along the lines of Fitzgerald in terms of developnment. And yes Munster A beat Leinster A but Munster A start players such as MOD, Nick Williams, Puc, Lewis etc. all old experienced players to Leinsters youngsters

danthefan · 20-06-2009 12:06PM

RuggieBear wrote: »

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

Size=everything · 20-06-2009 12:10PM

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster do much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

In fairness though two of the best players in the world were at Leinster last season and Leinster still allowed gametime for Sean O'Brien and McFadden. Fitzgerald and Kearney got gametime ahead of Irish internationals. Toner even started games ahead of MOK (even when MOK was fit and didnt have a big game coming up) etc.

Leinster trusts its youngsters, Munster don't. Even Ulster put a lot of trust in their youngsters last season to their credit.

anyways im off to watch the lions beat SA!

danthefan · 20-06-2009 12:12PM

Size=everything wrote: »

In fairness though two of the best players in the world were at Leinster last season and Leinster still allowed gametime for Sean O'Brien and McFadden. Fitzgerald and Kearney got gametime ahead of Irish internationals. Toner even started games ahead of MOK (even when MOK was fit and didnt have a big game coming up) etc.

Leinster trusts its youngsters, Munster don't. Even Ulster put a lot of trust in their youngsters last season to their credit.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, Hickie retired and Fitz stepped up. Kearney forced his way in. Sexton is stepping up for Contepomi. O'Brien will have a massive career, as will Healy. We don't have depth in all positions obviously (2nd row and hooker are bad especially) but BOD is the only 'irreplaceable' player in the Leinster team now.

Stev_o · 20-06-2009 12:12PM

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

True Munter pretty much built their team on those players and sadly they were all around the same age meaning that in a few years time they ll be past it or gone. Leinster are lucky in the sense that their squad has had varied age groups in it and they'v introduced alot of very young players over the past 3 years, though they ll feel the effects of loosing Cullen, BOD, D'Arcy and co in the years to come.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 12:49PM

Size=everything wrote: »

I am only mentioning provincial bias because I am astounded that posters are actually trying to counter players such as Kearney,Fitzgerald and Heaslip with young lads who didnt even make the Irishunder 20s!!!

You don't seem to grasp the fact that playing for the Irish u-20's means nothing or next to nothing in determining how a player will turn out. Munster have more players in the Ireland squads, more Lions, more top AIL clubs, by far the best record in the AIL since it started, and for nearly all that time, Leinster have had loads of players playing u-21 and latterly, u-20, for Ireland.

Like I keep saying, judge the players on how they do week-in, week-out in a league packed with experienced players. For all the players you're talking about now, I could have listed Des Dillon, Brendan Burke, Gary Browne, James Norton etc a few years back. Most of the u-20's will not go on to have top class careers as pro's, a good number won't even have top class careers in the AIL, and that's not to mention guys like Gibney, McKenna and Scally who had to retire due to injury. If underage success meant anything, Ulster would be the best team in Europe.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 12:53PM

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

Clohessy, Keith Wood, Frankie Sheahan, Mick Galwey, Langford, Jim Williams, Eddie Halvey, David Corkery. Every time one of them left we were told Munster were done for, we'd no talent to bring through etc. This prediction has been running around since the AIL started, it hasn't come through yet.

GymJim · 20-06-2009 04:02PM

Size=everything wrote: »

So what if they're mostly backs and anyway Toner,Healy, Sean O'Brien and Heaslip are all forwards so thats 4 of the potential eight forwards coming from Leinster. It used to be Leinster dominated backs and Munster dominated forwards but the way things are going its going to be simply Leinster dominated. Staunton never played as regularly as Fitzgerald, Kearney, Healy, Sexton, Keatley, Fionn Carr, Heaslip, Sean O'Brien etc. and proved his worth at provincial level week in week out like the players above did. I'm not saying the Leinster young players I've listed have made it (Though I think its very safe to say Kearney,Heaslip,Fitzgerald,Healy,O'Brien and Sexton have) merely that the prospects to do so are currently all Leinster bar a few Ulster men and Earls.

Staunton was Munster's first choice full back for 2 years. He played in a HEC final and played with Ireland. To say he never played as regularly as any of the above (possibly besides Heaslip at this stage) is just plain wrong. Fitz has had one season first choice and the rest have been ML players besides Healy who has had a good few HEC games this year.

Staunton looked every bit as much of a prospect as Sexton at the same age and had a few good games in HEC. Then he just didn't seem to follow through on his potential. Yes these are all good prospects but I wouldn't jump the gun and say they'll definitely be Irish regulars for years to come (besides Heaslip, Kearney and Fitz).

We all agree Leinster have many good prospects coming through but to say they will all follow through on this long-term is not a certainty. Lads like Norton and Brown in the past have never made it above ML level and have fallen off the radar despite being underage stars and having plenty of ability.

llcoolj14 · 22-06-2009 09:29AM

Size=everything wrote: »

He was mentioned here recently. Everyone mentions that game when they refer to him and he was brilliant in it but since then he has failed to make the Munster under 20s squad and didn't make the Irish Under 20s squad for the World Cup. I think what was most telling was when Nevin Spence got injured for the Irish Under 20s and Barnes his garryowen teammate was called up instead of him. I saw him last season playing and he seems to have fizzled out but at his age theres plenty of time to regain form I hope!!

Id suggest you check you sources...he decided to take a year out last year and instead once he got back fit,focussed on playing for Garryowen in the AIL, scoring a number of tries and bascially as good as anyone his age in the AIL...recently played for an Irish u-20 development side(essentially everyone was u-19) V France (this is the squad that has been earmarked as out u-20 team next year).

FridaysWell · 18-08-2009 03:23AM

Leinster have an excellent youth system. I know, I was almost part of it. Injury and my name let me down

anywho they really take the rugby and coaching seriously. The Leinster branch have an excellent schools system in place, with most if not all of the players mentioned above coming from schools. The schools system is very good, produces very high standard of player, BUT Leinster don't concentrate at all on a huge untapped pool. The clubs youth teams. There are a huge amount of really good players that are just waiting to come through the system but they are being let down by Leinster mis-managing and not taking their tournaments seriously. Leinster need to start developing the Underage club youth system alot more. They have kind of started but more work is needed in my humble opinion.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2009 08:38AM

FridaysWell wrote: »

BUT Leinster don't concentrate at all on a huge untapped pool. The clubs youth teams. There are a huge amount of really good players that are just waiting to come through the system but they are being let down by Leinster mis-managing and not taking their tournaments seriously. Leinster need to start developing the Underage club youth system alot more. They have kind of started but more work is needed in my humble opinion.

Yes more work needed in youth system. There's a lot of numbers of refs in Leinster as well and it can be more difficult to get noticed it you are not from a well known club. They should use metrics like official fitness tests and multiple choice exams for all refs.

OldJay · 18-08-2009 08:53AM

Quite the charge there and in my experience, entirely baseless.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2009 09:22AM

Justind wrote: »

Quite the charge there and in my experience, entirely baseless.

Go on then. Elaborate?

I know a number of refs from junior clubs who would agree with me. The branch could use more objective processes such as they do in other organisations e.g. New Zealand. But they don't.

OldJay · 18-08-2009 09:33AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Go on then. Elaborate?

You brought up this claim in the first place so I would say that should involve backing it up as well.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2009 09:52AM

Justind wrote: »

You brought up this claim in the first place so I would say that should involve backing it up as well.

Justin mate, it's a fact they don't use fitness tests and written mutliple choice exams. They do have occasional fitness tests at the higher levels (AIL and up) but they don't use below that for which there are about another 5 levels.

If they brought in some objective process you could then know your fitness and law knowledge were at specific levels and that your being objectively scored against your peers.

buck65 · 18-08-2009 10:18AM

Munster's academy and upcoming players didn't look too shabby on Friday did they?

Riskymove · 18-08-2009 10:49AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Justin mate, for the third time, it's a fact they don't use fitness tests and written mutliple choice exams. They do have occasional fitness tests at the higher levels (AIL and up) but they don't use below that for which there are about another 5 levels.

I know a number of refs who aren't happy and I also have seen a number of refs jump ahead of other refs they are no better than because they have connections or because they are with a club which has a number of people on the right committees.

If they brought in some objective process you could then know your fitness and law knowledge were at specific levels and that your being objectively scored against your peers.

worrying stuff, becoming a ref is something I have toyed with recently and as I live in leinster, the leinster branch is the obvious choice

this sort of insight is offputting to say the least, especially as I am not currently attached to a club

The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

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