The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

19-06-2009 09:33PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Goose - it statistically must be true, given how many young folk in general we lose that way - the Brain Drain. It's very, very common. But if you asked me to pinpoint someone who I was aware of that I could say had "gotten away", I couldn't name any names. I know there are a lot of ex-Ulster youngsters in Div 1 in England - Andress etc. But I don't know any that are really setting the world ablaze.

Size - I agree with your last point about there being room for improvement. Absolutely I do. But you're not clear about what you're asking. All those other players have regularly started for Ulster, and you asked about how many youngster start at provinces. So we have at least twice the "four" young players who at a level where they start Magners/Heineken Cup games.

Although, to be fair, O'Connor is a can of worms... as for Trimble, I think - or perhaps "hope" is more honest - he can turn it around again.

The fact that we have fielded so many youngsters is part of the reason we didn't deliver this season. This is compunded by the fact that a number of our important imports (Willis, Diack, Nagusa) are young. We could well do with a couple of older, wiser heads.

I would think that must be true because you have some brilliant schools players up there that tear it up in the under age levels and then dissapear.
Ulster needs to start offering them good contracts to stay,the IRFU should be helping them with this imo

Ulster have produced

Ferris
Bowe
Trimble
Cave
Calwell

In the last few years,not a bad return I think but as you say it could be alot better.

Paul Smeenus · 19-06-2009 09:43PM

Personally, I'd add Pollock to that list, but that's just quibbling, and probably a bit premature.

I think the most revealing comment in the whole thread, though, is the one made about DOC, BOD and Paddy Wallace being the only remnants of the World Cup-winning U19s.

Because if that's true, then a lot of great things predicted for the youngsters mentioend in this thread are simply not going to come to pass. What are the odds that in five years we will be bemoaning Fitzgerald fizzling out, Ronan never fulfilling his potential, Cave's career-ending injury? I wonder if a lot of the confident, swaggering predictions written here about tomorrow's world-beaters are simply facile.

themont85 · 19-06-2009 09:47PM

thehighground wrote: »

Good, got the toys out of the pram. You started this thread called: " The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

I'm just pointing out it isn't Leinster dominated. Munster & Leinster have two different approaches. If you are giving the credit for inspiring Luke Fitzgerald to his father Des who played his rugby for De la Salle, you can credit Johnny Sexton, Jamie Heaslip whose family all hail/played for Munster clubs to them. (And I only mentioned Luke really, because someone (good humouredly) pointed out that the Munster Academy wanted him). As far as I know, the Leinster Academy only got interested in Luke when the Munster Academy showed some interest (apparently approached by Luke's Dad who obviously having lived in Cork, had good rugby contacts down there).

Sorry, I don't go along with your charade that this isn't a "Leinster is better than Munster" thread. That is all you are trying to prove. It is quite obvious from the title of the thread, which I didn't start.

A more neutral title might have been: "Where is all the Irish rugby talent being nutured'.

Just one other point - it is possible to have all the talent at underage etc., but its the top 2 inches that count. Plenty of time for all of those you mention to fail yet. Think of it - out of the group that won the U-19 World Cup - only ones playing pro rugby are BOD, DOC & Paddy Wallace.

What bs, Leinster Academy only took notice when Munster sniffed around:rolleyes:. Fitzgearld was Irish schools in 4th year and in all the Leinster under age teams. Clearly the Leinster set up recognised his talent. The Munster thing was over him getting first team rugby immediately. Munster wanted him because of his obvious class and on a development/full contract which he got with Leinster. The say Leinster didn't notice him is just wrong. It was all to do with getting the best deal for Fitzgearld just coming out of school.

This is stupid you derailing the thread with provincial bs. Its clear Leinster has the most underage talent going around and that has to come into senior rugby eventually. Munster do have talent too, but not on the same level. The grand slam under 20s had 11 leinster, 5 Ulster and 4 Munster with 2 Connacht. This years Junior World Cup has 13 Leinster, 6 Munster, 5 Ulster and 2 exiles(both rumoured to be Leinster bound). It is not saying Munster has no talent, this thread is asking why Leinster is producing so much more than the rest. Obviousely populaiton is a factor, but there is other reasons. You can't just say the ''top 2 inches'' line, that is silly, that is like saying Munster guys have that and their provincial counterparts don't. It is not a flash in the pan that Leinster has more, that is how it has been going for a while now. There is obviousely reasons for it which need to be looked at by Munster and Ulster(and Connacht too obviousely).

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:51PM

thehighground wrote: »

--
These are mostly backs. Tomas O'Leary was captaining the Cork Minor Hurlers to an All Ireland title at the same age as some of those mentioned above. Hayes & Ryan didn't start playing rugby until they were 18/19 - so who knows? Jeremy Staunton was another 'hot prospect' at one stage in Munster - so excuse me if I don't think they have all made it once they have played a bit of ML/HC.

So what if they're mostly backs and anyway Toner,Healy, Sean O'Brien and Heaslip are all forwards so thats 4 of the potential eight forwards coming from Leinster. It used to be Leinster dominated backs and Munster dominated forwards but the way things are going its going to be simply Leinster dominated. Staunton never played as regularly as Fitzgerald, Kearney, Healy, Sexton, Keatley, Fionn Carr, Heaslip, Sean O'Brien etc. and proved his worth at provincial level week in week out like the players above did. I'm not saying the Leinster young players I've listed have made it (Though I think its very safe to say Kearney,Heaslip,Fitzgerald,Healy,O'Brien and Sexton have) merely that the prospects to do so are currently all Leinster bar a few Ulster men and Earls.

I'd say Munster know what they are doing - and seem to be stick to picking the cream of the crop for their own needs. They obviously don't see it as their job to develop players for other clubs. Fair play to Leinster rugby if they do

Hold on a second, Munster had to import Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett because they had no one for their backline. Add to that Dowling. Tipoki is gone and Earls has been developed but who do they have as the future replacement to Howlett? thats right a Leinster import, Felix Jones. Ian Dowling is also Leinster so I really dont think Munster stick to 'picking the cream of the crop for their own needs'. Put it this way, CJ got injured Leinster had Healy ready. Contepomi got injured Leinster had Sexton ready. O'Driscoll needed a break there was McFadden, MOK needed a break Leinster had Toner, Whitaker had Paul O'Donaghue, Rocky had Sean O'Brien etc. Munster dont have that quality of depth. If they did they wouldn't had to import. Leinster imported CJ but Healy was more than ready. Leinster imported Rocky but O'Brien was almost ready. Leinster imported Contepomi but developed Sexton to a level where he would be ready once Contepomi left. In fact I don't think theres one position for Leinster where if a player got injured or left they wouldnt have very good cover for.

Well, up to now Munster have been providing the bulk of the 22. About time Leinster put their should to the wheel!

15.Kearney
14.Fitzgerald
13.O'Driscoll
12.D'arcy
11.Bowe
10.O'Gara
9.TOL
8.Heaslip
7.Wallace
6.Ferris
5.DOC
4.POC
3.Hayes
2.Flannery
1.Horan

5 Leinster, 8 Munster, 2 Ulster for starting 15 which is what counts. And I am talking about the trend we are seeing currently never has there been such a gap than there has in the last few years.

PS - what do you think of the Ruddock boys coming to Leinster? Do you feel guilty that they got most of their rugby education from the Os?

Why would I? Im delighted Leinster captured their signing.

handsomecake · 19-06-2009 09:53PM

a lot of it has to do with the gaa,hurling heritages of kerry cork etc.
in the north you have tyrone,armagh etc.
the player pool is diluted between sports.
plenty of good rugby schools in dublin too which contributes to their development

madds · 19-06-2009 09:53PM

Can anyone tell me where Diarmuid McCarthy (ex-Castletroy College) who was MOTM in the '08 Munster Senior Cup Final is playing now? I know he was part of the Academy last year but was injured at the start of the season. Haven't seen him mentioned in any of the posts yet but he looked a real prospect in that match 15 months ago.

Do Munster supporters see him as one for the near future?

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:58PM

madds wrote: »

Can anyone tell me where Diarmuid McCarthy (ex-Castletroy College) who was MOTM in the '08 Munster Senior Cup Final is playing now? I know he was part of the Academy last year but was injured at the start of the season. Haven't seen him mentioned in any of the posts yet but he looked a real prospect in that match 15 months ago.

Do Munster supporters see him as one for the near future?

He was mentioned here recently. Everyone mentions that game when they refer to him and he was brilliant in it but since then he has failed to make the Munster under 20s squad and didn't make the Irish Under 20s squad for the World Cup. I think what was most telling was when Nevin Spence got injured for the Irish Under 20s and Barnes his garryowen teammate was called up instead of him. I saw him last season playing and he seems to have fizzled out but at his age theres plenty of time to regain form I hope!!

Chucky the tree · 19-06-2009 10:14PM

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

So your not interested in Irish youth rugby development.
The next generation of internationals dont grow on trees mate.

And most of them don't play at a high level underage for Ireland. I'm not hugely for munster or Ireland, look back at all the underage world cups and only 3 or 4 ever make it to the full irish team on a regular basis. Go through all of the Irish underage teams who've shown some success and most of the players are complete unknowns.

2005 Under 21 World cup squad:
Forwards: John Andress (Belfast Harlequins), Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon), Michael Diffley (Buccaneers), Stephen Ferris (Dungannon), Chris Henry (Malone), Anthnony Kavanagh (Garryowen), Ronan Loughney (Galwegians), Gary Maxwell (Dungannon), Kevin McLaughlin (UCD), Mark Melbourne (Garryowen), Joseph Merrigan (Corinthians), Ross Noonan (UCC), Stuart Philpott (Saracens), Trevor Richardson (Buccaneers).

Backs: Conan Doyle (Garryowen), Gerry Hurley (Garryowen), Paul Hurley (UCC), Mark Kettyle (Belfast Harlequins), Ross McCarron (UCD), Paul McKenzie (Belfast Harlequins), Daniel Riordan (Corinthians), Jonathon Sexton (St. Mary's College), Greg Stafford (Lansdowne) Gareth Steenson (Dungannon) (Capt), Andrew Trimble (Ballymena), Cillian Willis (UCD).

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 10:17PM

7 of them are still playing professional rugby, one is a lion not a bad return.

edit : You left out Trimble and Willis for some reason so 9 of them still playing professionally

Chucky the tree · 19-06-2009 10:22PM

Size=everything wrote: »

7 of them are still playing professional rugby, one is a lion not a bad return.

But it's still only 1 Irish regular and a great chance for a second. That 2 players out of 26, I'm not saying it's bad as it's pretty stand I'd say for most/all other nations. I'm just sayign the jump from underage to full international is huge so I wouldn't look to much into the fact that Leinster have a lot more players in underage sides then the other provinces. Also at underage level due to the SCT having more competitive schools and a bigger competition there's probaly a bit of bias given towards them.

Copy and paste fail.

themont85 · 19-06-2009 10:37PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But it's still only 1 Irish regular and a great chance for a second. That 2 players out of 26, I'm not saying it's bad as it's pretty stand I'd say for most/all other nations. I'm just sayign the jump from underage to full international is huge so I wouldn't look to much into the fact that Leinster have a lot more players in underage sides then the other provinces. Also at underage level due to the SCT having more competitive schools and a bigger competition there's probaly a bit of bias given towards them.

Copy and paste fail.

Chucky you really are looking at it the wrong way. Of course only a couple may make it through to play for Ireland, that is not bad at all. There is only 30 odd in a Irish squad at any given time. Not everybody can make it. Where are the future players coming from for Ireland? If only 2 or 3 out of 26 make it for Ireland(and a few more provincially) and the make up of the squad is almost half full of Leinster players, then eventually Leinster will have more quality players than the rest.Rugby is becoming more and more honed at youth level. Unfortunately, and this is something I personally lament, the days of a John Hayes taking the game up at 18 are going to be extremelly rare. People not making it at 20/21 at their age grade provencially or internationally will likely never make it.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 10:37PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But it's still only 1 Irish regular and a great chance for a second. That 2 players out of 26, I'm not saying it's bad as it's pretty stand I'd say for most/all other nations. I'm just sayign the jump from underage to full international is huge so I wouldn't look to much into the fact that Leinster have a lot more players in underage sides then the other provinces. Also at underage level due to the SCT having more competitive schools and a bigger competition there's probaly a bit of bias given towards them.

Copy and paste fail.

In fairness I wasn't the one to bring up the underage players I was referring to the young players who actually start regularly for Leinster and other provinces in the ML i.e Toner,Healy,Sexton,McFadden,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien

If I wanted to mention underage players well then theres tons from Leinster (10 out of 15 Irish U20s World cup squad are Leinster) but I'm not because as you said usually only 2-3 players will ever make it to international level from that stage but I wasn't the one to bring up underagers (though if 2-3 make it per squad and the squad is mostly Leinster then most likely most of the players that do make it will be Leinster) another poster mentioned Munster's talent from AIL but I countered none of those players are proven unlike the Leinster players I mentioned. Of the young players I mentoned 3 are currently Lions, 2 are set to make the Irish 22 for the RBS 6nations, one is top try scorer in the Magners League and the other 2 are regulars for Connacht and Leinster respectively. I could also mention how Felix Jones will 100% be starting for Munster by the end of the season but I wont as that isn't proven.

Chucky the tree · 19-06-2009 11:00PM

themont85 wrote: »

Chucky you really are looking at it the wrong way. Of course only a couple may make it through to play for Ireland, that is not bad at all. There is only 30 odd in a Irish squad at any given time. Not everybody can make it. Where are the future players coming from for Ireland? If only 2 or 3 out of 26 make it for Ireland(and a few more provincially) and the make up of the squad is almost half full of Leinster players, then eventually Leinster will have more quality players than the rest.Rugby is becoming more and more honed at youth level. Unfortunately, and this is something I personally lament, the days of a John Hayes taking the game up at 18 are going to be extremelly rare. People not making it at 20/21 at their age grade provencially or internationally will likely never make it.

But the even the rest of the 7 professionals aren't close to an Irish team. I disagree that people at 20/21 who don't make it an international grade will fail. Look at soccer, it's been proffessional and has always had academies etc but still players who play at under 21's for their countries and below still struggle to make the break to the first team. People are underestimating the growth/development people have from 21-24.

Size=everything wrote: »

In fairness I wasn't the one to bring up the underage players I was referring to the young players who actually start regularly for Leinster and other provinces in the ML i.e Toner,Healy,Sexton,McFadden,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien

If I wanted to mention underage players well then theres tons from Leinster (10 out of 15 Irish U20s World cup squad are Leinster) but I'm not because as you said usually only 2-3 players will ever make it to international level from that stage but I wasn't the one to bring up underagers (though if 2-3 make it per squad and the squad is mostly Leinster then most likely most of the players that do make it will be Leinster) another poster mentioned Munster's talent from AIL but I countered none of those players are proven unlike the Leinster players I mentioned. Of the young players I mentoned 3 are currently Lions, 2 are set to make the Irish 22 for the RBS 6nations, one is top try scorer in the Magners League and the other 2 are regulars for Connacht and Leinster respectively. I could also mention how Felix Jones will 100% be starting for Munster by the end of the season but I wont as that isn't proven.

Toner - Would he dislodge DOC or POC? I certainly don't think so. Having an aging MOK to slip in behind is the main reason he gets game time.

Sexton - If Conter's didn't get injured we'd still have the same question marks over him.

McFadden - I don't know if I'd call him a regular after 6 games.

As I said this can easily be put down to a golden patch for Leinster and not due to them being some much better at producing talent. It's not like the Irish team is/was always dominated with Leinster players.

themont85 · 19-06-2009 11:10PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But the even the rest of the 7 professionals aren't close to an Irish team. I disagree that people at 20/21 who don't make it an international grade will fail. Look at soccer, it's been proffessional and has always had academies etc but still players who play at under 21's for their countries and below still struggle to make the break to the first team. People are underestimating the growth/development people have from 21-24.
.

Rugby is not soccer, it is far more system orientated. We only have 4 professional provinces. The provinces will drop you from their acadamies/sub acadamies if you don't make Ireland/your province at that age. And it is their acadamies where they look for players not the AIL. I know of several players dropped for not making Ireland ect. That is the way it is going, unfortunately.

Chucky the tree · 19-06-2009 11:27PM

themont85 wrote: »

Rugby is not soccer, it is far more system orientated. We only have 4 professional provinces. The provinces will drop you from their acadamies/sub acadamies if you don't make Ireland/your province at that age. And it is their acadamies where they look for players not the AIL. I know of several players dropped for not making Ireland ect. That is the way it is going, unfortunately.

While they might get dropped from Leinster you'll find those players starting to make the break through from AIL or going to england. Look at trimble, he made all the Irish under aged schools, then the full Irish team and has just nose dived since. Most of the underage players will go the same way as him expect they won't even get as many caps as he did. Unfortunatly we both have a long wait to find out who's right.

You're right that soccer mightn't be rugby but there isn't one sport in the world where the great underage players transfer up into great professionals and I can't see rugby being the one to somehow break that mold.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 11:35PM

Off topic but in fairness to Trimble he has been out injured most of this season and was in the 2008 6 nations squad.

19-06-2009 11:53PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Off topic but in fairness to Trimble he has been out injured most of this season and was in the 2008 6 nations squad.

There was actually an article which I think interviewed the current under 20s coach.He was talking about how Irish youths lacked the basic skills that their sh counterparts had.

He selected out Trimble for special treatment saying "he wouldnt mind"
He then went on to say how he had bad hands,had defensive weaknesses and said he had no kicking game to speak of and that because of this the ELV;s had destroyed his game because of the kicking skills required and forced him out of the Ireland setup.

7mountpleasant · 20-06-2009 12:53AM

One thing that might go to explaining the disparity in the acedemy systems is that if you look at the ages of the people who have made the big breakthrough (earls aside) from the munster system (Fla , DOC, TOL) is that they have been considerably older than there leinster counterparts when they made there breakthrough (Healy, Fitz and Toner) so while looking this from this point in time the standout youngsters at the moment are all wearing blue , but in 4-5 years time the ratio of acedemy players actually getting capped could be much much more even.

Madworld · 20-06-2009 02:25AM

Just wondering does anybody know what happened to that huge prop Lovic from Belvo last year. Is he still playing

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 02:27AM

Size=everything wrote: »

Its irrelevant. My point is where are the young players Munster have produced that are good enough to warrant starting for a province other than Cronin, Earls and Holland?

The Munster players playing in AIL are still not good enough to warrant starting regularly for a provincial team unlike Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Sexton,Toner,Healy,Sean O'Brien, McFadden,Kearney,Cave,Keatley,Fionn Carr etc.

If these players were capable then they would be getting game time for Munster or would be signed up by another province.

Jeez, considering Munster had 10 or 12 players in the Grand Slam squad and 9 Lions, who do you think we should drop to bring through players? I'm not sure why you keep missing this, but Munster don't need to bring through as many players...

I'm confident the talented players are biding their time in the AIL like Flannery and TOL did.

Podge_irl · 20-06-2009 02:30AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

Really? My impression is that Ryan especially has gone backwards as a player precisely because of his lack of game time. He is quite a step down from POC/DOC now. Though that does add weight to the "settled team" theory I guess.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

While I understand and appreciate your point, I don't agree with the sentiment. Yes, Munster have a somewhat decent second team, but they couldn't just pop in and replace the incumbents and even if they did there is a noticeable drop in quality. Moreso, some of them aren't even all that young.

I'm taking a massive Leinster slant on this comparison given my background but here goes.

Hurley - Healy is two years younger and got 3 times as much game time last year before he was first choice and about 10 times more this year.
Fogarty - He's almost 26, that's older then Rory Best.
Buckley - isn't young and there is a decent chance he still won't fulfil anything close to his potential.
Ryan - Great prospect
Foley/Nagle - In fairness, I don't know a lot about them (though a cursory glance tells me Toner had about 6 games under his belt at their age and they have none)
Holland - Fair enough, though SOB is younger and got a hell of a lot more game time this year
O'Donnell/Grace - know nothing about them so will leave it be
O'Mahoney - He was almost born in the 90s, that's disturbing (this is an irrelevant comment)
Williams - Older than POD with precisely zero game time.
Manning/Burke - Manning isn't much of a prospect due to him being ****. Nor was he much of a Munster product. Don't know enough about Burke to comment
O'Boyle - He's 25....
Gleeson - Fair enough (though McFadden is younger and has more game time and is far closer to the Leinster and Irish squads).
Earls - Yup
McCarthy - dunno who this is
Hurly - Older and not as good as Jones (or Kearney or Fitz for that matter). Mind you Jones has yet to prove/disprove anything at a high level.

Munster have a settled team, I get that. It makes it harder to break through, and those that do are excellent players. But I dont get how it doesn't worry you that a lot of Munster players will be retiring or hitting their waning years soon and there is no obvious home grown replacement for them. For nearly everyone you have mentioned there is a Leinster player who is further along in their development and most of the time they are younger as well. Sexton was behing Conters, yet get got gametime. SOB gets gametime. Healy gets gametime. McFadden gets some gametime and is breaking through. Toner gets gametime. Timmy Ryan is leaving Munster cause he isn't getting it.

Carr, Keatley and Jones left Leinster because other young players were in their way.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It is telling that guys like Reddan and Ross can go from being way down the list in Munster to first choice in other teams. I really think people under-estimate the AIL.

I agree that people underestimate the AIL, but these players flourished after a lot of commitment from their clubs abroad. It wasn't as if they were ready made to drop in as first choice elsewhere.

thehighground wrote: »

Sorry, I don't go along with your charade that this isn't a "Leinster is better than Munster" thread. That is all you are trying to prove. It is quite obvious from the title of the thread, which I didn't start.

A more neutral title might have been: "Where is all the Irish rugby talent being nutured'.

Just one other point - it is possible to have all the talent at underage etc., but its the top 2 inches that count. Plenty of time for all of those you mention to fail yet. Think of it - out of the group that won the U-19 World Cup - only ones playing pro rugby are BOD, DOC & Paddy Wallace.

First of all, this isn't about the talent from the U19 WC 10 years ago, its about now. Secondly, its plain to anyone to see that Leinster are dominating the underage set up in Ireland at the moment. The real question is why. A look at the senior teams says it can't really be that Leinster simply produce better players, so the more pertinent question is why, over the last few years, have underage teams and ultimately young professional players, been so Leinster centric. Its potentially merely swings and roundabouts, but I get the impression that it isn't.

thehighground wrote: »

Kearney seems to have hit a wall - hopefully he will come through;
Heaslip is on a high at the moment - think he is the real deal.
Sexton: Jury still out - he has not played at international level yet (Denis Hurley had a great couple of games for Munster then went backwards at the rate of knots).
Healy: Looks to be the real deal.

Sexton is already way way ahead of where Hurley can only hope to dream of being at the moment. He still has a lot to prove at international level, but that comparison is silly. Kearney and Heaslip are Lions. Healy is currently the best loosehead in Ireland.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 02:33AM

Size=everything wrote: »

He was mentioned here recently. Everyone mentions that game when they refer to him and he was brilliant in it but since then he has failed to make the Munster under 20s squad and didn't make the Irish Under 20s squad for the World Cup. I think what was most telling was when Nevin Spence got injured for the Irish Under 20s and Barnes his garryowen teammate was called up instead of him. I saw him last season playing and he seems to have fizzled out but at his age theres plenty of time to regain form I hope!!

Barnes plays for UCC, ffs.

McCarthy has been playing and scoring tries for the Garryowen senior team. He's been in great form for one of the best teams in the AIL. The only issue is he's not sure if he wants to go pro.

Podge_irl · 20-06-2009 02:38AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Jeez, considering Munster had 10 or 12 players in the Grand Slam squad and 9 Lions, who do you think we should drop to bring through players? I'm not sure why you keep missing this, but Munster don't need to bring through as many players...

It is possible to give players game time while not "dropping" the incumbents.

Also, of the 11 Munster players who lined out for Ireland's XXII, the youngest was TOL at 25. 5 of them were over 30 and 2 were 29. Only BOD and Murphy were 30 or over of the others. Most were under 25.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 02:47AM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And most of them don't play at a high level underage for Ireland. I'm not hugely for munster or Ireland, look back at all the underage world cups and only 3 or 4 ever make it to the full irish team on a regular basis. Go through all of the Irish underage teams who've shown some success and most of the players are complete unknowns.

2005 Under 21 World cup squad:
Forwards: John Andress (Harlequins),
Ryan Caldwell (Ulster),
Stephen Ferris (Ulster),
Chris Henry (Ulster),
Ronan Loughney (Connacht),
Kevin McLaughlin (Leinster),
Mark Melbourne (Released by Munster this season),
Joseph Merrigan (Connacht),
Ross Noonan (Playing Division 1 in England),
Stuart Philpott (Ulster),

Backs:
Daniel Riordan (Released by Connacht),
Jonathon Sexton (Leinster),
Gareth Steenson (Playing in Div One in England),
Andrew Trimble (Ulster),
Cillian Willis (Ulster).

The above are still playing pro, afaik. I presume Melbourne and Riordan will move to some clubs.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 02:50AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is possible to give players game time while not "dropping" the incumbents.

Also, of the 11 Munster players who lined out for Ireland's XXII, the youngest was TOL at 25. 5 of them were over 30 and 2 were 29. Only BOD and Murphy were 30 or over of the others. Most were under 25.

It's not really though, is it? For example, much of this year was spent integrating Earls and Warwick into our backs, we couldn't chop and change to bring anyone else in, not really.

In the forwards we gave gametime to Hurley, Fogs, Buckley, D. Ryan, T. Ryan, Dave Ryan, Holland, O'Donnell and Ronan, as well as giving our entire pack to Ireland, there's only so many games to go around.

anonymous_joe · 20-06-2009 03:00AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's not really though, is it? For example, much of this year was spent integrating Earls and Warwick into our backs, we couldn't chop and change to bring anyone else in, not really.

In the forwards we gave gametime to Hurley, Fogs, Buckley, D. Ryan, T. Ryan, Dave Ryan, Holland, O'Donnell and Ronan, as well as giving our entire pack to Ireland, there's only so many games to go around.

But like - you just said it! You're entire pack plays for Ireland! So how come other teams get to blood youngsters more frequently?

In the Heineken Cup final, Leinster played Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Cian Healy and Johnny Sexton. All of those guys are really young.

Settled team's too easy an excuse - Paul O'Connell barely plays in the Magners League, it's Mick 'old, not really good enough' O'Driscoll. Ronan O'Gara doesn't have an alternative, at full back you've got Paul Warwick or Denis 'I'm surprisingly shít for someone whose been a professional as long as I have' Hurley. The wingers are oooooold. Or shít. Howlett's 30, and great as he is, his pace is slowly but surely eroding, while Ian 'I hate Leinster because Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie are rubbish I swear' Dowling is, well, Ian Dowling. Why isn't there some young kid challenging him for his place?

This is the first season I can remember Munster taking the Magners League seriously, and yet, in the seasons prior to that I've no real memory of youngsters being played.

A Munster fan I know is in fact really annoyed that Keith Earls is so far behind Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald in game time and blames the Munster set up for that.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 03:05AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Secondly, its plain to anyone to see that Leinster are dominating the underage set up in Ireland at the moment. The real question is why. A look at the senior teams says it can't really be that Leinster simply produce better players, so the more pertinent question is why, over the last few years, have underage teams and ultimately young professional players, been so Leinster centric. Its potentially merely swings and roundabouts, but I get the impression that it isn't.

This is where I think you're missing the point.

It's no mystery that Leinster, with a greater population and more rugby schools, will have more players. What is a mystery is why all these underage players peter out. Next year, the entire of Leinster will have four top AIL clubs, Clontarf, Mary's, Belvedere, and Blackrock. Four teams, the same as Limerick....

So, and this has been my point, if there's so many players coming through, why are the Leinster clubs so bad?

My theory is that Munster clubs are not as hung up on underage success and take a long term view, they don't care how good a player is when he's under 20, if he has the potential to be good at senior. Hence you see Munster players coming through at a later age.

It is the clubs that will be the future of Munster rugby. Three of the best prospects in the Academy came through the Munster youths, from clubs away from the main schools, Foley, O'Donnell and Grace.

Like I said, Leinster should have more underage players, it's what happens when they turn senior that should worry any Irish fan.

I'm willing to bet now that even if less players come through from Munster, the ones that do come through will be good enough to keep Munster among the top teams in Europe.

Amazotheamazing · 20-06-2009 03:11AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

But like - you just said it! You're entire pack plays for Ireland! So how come other teams get to blood youngsters more frequently?

In the Heineken Cup final, Leinster played Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Cian Healy and Johnny Sexton. All of those guys are really young.

Settled team's too easy an excuse - Paul O'Connell barely plays in the Magners League, it's Mick 'old, not really good enough' O'Driscoll. Ronan O'Gara doesn't have an alternative, at full back you've got Paul Warwick or Denis 'I'm surprisingly shít for someone whose been a professional as long as I have' Hurley. The wingers are oooooold. Or shít. Howlett's 30, and great as he is, his pace is slowly but surely eroding, while Ian 'I hate Leinster because Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie are rubbish I swear' Dowling is, well, Ian Dowling. Why isn't there some young kid challenging him for his place?

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

20-06-2009 03:18AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

I have stayed out but for god sake admit it when you are wrong.

You have no where near as much talent coming through and you are resorting to poaching players.

What top locks and hookers are you bringing through?
None.

Niall Ronan a Leinster poach who is crap and old,Tony Buckley who is 29 and crap and old and Donnacha ryan who is crap and old.
Felix Jones is most likely the only youth player that will break through this year and hes from Leinster,as are the whole backline and packs of the youth setups.

Munster are producing jack **** as are connacht and Ulster.

For every Dennis Hurley you name we have 10 players better in the same position.

Its not dick waving,its fact.

Felix Jones couldnt make the Leinster setup as we have at least 4 better back 3 players in the academy but he will probably start for Munster soon enough,that says it all.

Stop making excuses and make valid arguments.

anonymous_joe · 20-06-2009 03:22AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

Donncha Ryan's like 25? I'm unaware of any other lock.

The only hookers I know of are Cronin at Connacht and the Fogartys who are pretty much all in their mid-20s?

As for MOD, squad player, meh, fcuk that. He's too old to be at Munster. If he had ambition he'd be leading the line for another club because he's good enough to start for most non-amazing top division teams.

Munster have no young out-halves, no wingers, one centre and no full backs. Nor are there props, second rows or flankers. That's ludicrous!

Munster should produce half the talent Leinster or Ulster do and they're not doing that. That's a coaching problem...

The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

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