The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:42PM

themont85 wrote: »

I've already written a good few posts about the quality of young players coming through. There is definately a hell of a lot more coming out of Leinster than Munster, with Ulster provided a fair number. Munster are producing talent but not at the rate of Leinster where prospects may not even be full Academy. Ian Madigan, who isn't even in the Acadamy has played for the full Leinster team-http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/academyprofiles.php. Leinster consistantly win underage provincial games more than any other province, eventually that will start to tell at senior ranks despite Munster and their AIL dominance(which is a vital source of players for them, those guys develop a couple of years after the schools ones imo).

I agree with Tim Robbins, it would be impossible for a Castletroy like leap of a school in Leinster to glory. Rugby is a demanding sport and needs a lot of training put in and can't just be played like soccer in the street or with meagre facilities. Scrum machines, properly equipped gyms with fitness coaching, decent pitches and several coaches are needed on the tactical aspect. In addition to this there is the players needs to suceed. You need a large enough school year (over 80 is a must) where well over half play rugby. In Munster you have CBC Cork and PBC, then maybe Munchins, Rockwell, Castletroy(now), Crescent and maybe Glenstal. But for the 5 or 6 schools in Munster there is well over double in Leinster who take it seriousely and crucially more boarding schools. There is a reason why Clongowes Wood College are producing heaps of quality players, complete immersion in the game despite being a small enough school. Ditto for Newbridge until they stopped it. That is a reason why Kilkenny and Roscrea are now doing decent. And Blackrock always have a good few boarders which puts them over the top. Rock also have the biggest years(nearly 200 per year) and the coaches and history of player production to send them over the top. I don't see a average CBS or community school being able to compete with that in Leinster.

In Munster, Castletroy succeeded because there isn't a lot of schools and schools which have boarding to them. If a school isn't boarding they need to have a big enough year(a la Terenure and Belvedere in Dublin). If you don't have that your school must be rugby dominated entirely like Marys or Michaels with a history in the game, those schools don't have cup winning teams every year but have the facilities/history ect to keep up. That is the aim of other schools. Castleknock once a very big rugby school now haven't won the cup for almost 50 years and there is good reason to it. You have schools like Gonzaga, consistant but have never made the semis. We've seen schools try and make it back to the top table like CBC(CBC Monkstown were one of the very top schools in the late 70s/early 80s then fell of for 15 years, not really new to the table), Gonzaga, Roscrea, Kilkenny and Newbridge(very big in the 90s). These schools put a lot of effort into having the exact same standards as the Rocks or Marys, but it will take a few years for things to quite fall in place.

In short rugby needs facilities, training and coaching in addition to talent to really produce players and teams. Leinster have a competition which breeds this year in year out which means they dominate until the early 20s. Munster do make a comeback at the later years and for years the combination of their smaller schools pool and club players have matched Leinster/Ulster. I do worry about this long term for Munster though, there is only so many diamond in the rough guys like Hayes in the now Professional era. Professionalism is needed right down the age grades now to suceed and not to be left behind. Its upto the IRFU to push the game in more schools like Castletroy, put more money into the clubs and to ensure the balance of players stays the same.

Theres been some excellent posts in this thread and that is another one. Thanks.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 06:47PM

themont85 wrote: »

In Munster, Castletroy succeeded because there isn't a lot of schools and schools which have boarding to them.

Em, Castletroy succeeded because the vast majority of their team played for Bohemians from the age of under 5 up. The school is successful because it's located in an area with a lot of strong sports teams (Boh's in rugby, Ahane and Monaleen in GAA, Aisling Annacotty in soccer) which feed into each other. The amount of guys on that team who played three or four sports to a high level is incredible. Boh's have one of the strongest underage sections in Munster. It's effectively a club with a catchment of nearly 30,000 people. Afaik, Ul/Boh's have won the Irish u-20's league for the last two years in a row.

I've said this loads of times, but club rugby is a lot stronger than schools rugby in Munster. Look at the amount of senior clubs in Cork, (Con, Dolphin, UCC, Sunday's Well (?), Highfield, Midleton, Clonakilty) and then ask how come there's only two main rugby schools in Cork? It's a massive strength of Munster rugby.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 06:54PM

Size=everything wrote: »

So essentially 3 players to Leinsters 10 youngsters who play regularly in the ML do you not see a problem with this?

No, because time and again we've been able to pull players out of the AIL and play them for Munster as we need to. Munster just have less turnover of players than other provinces.

It is telling that guys like Reddan and Ross can go from being way down the list in Munster to first choice in other teams. I really think people under-estimate the AIL.

themont85 · 19-06-2009 06:54PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Castletroy succeeded because the vast majority of their team played for Bohemians from the age of under 5 up. The school is successful because it's located in an area with a lot of strong sports teams (Boh's in rugby, Ahane and Monaleen in GAA, Aisling Annacotty in soccer) which feed into each other. The amount of guys on that team who played three or four sports to a high level is incredible. Boh's have one of the strongest underage sections in Munster. It's effectively a club with a catchment of nearly 30,000 people. Afaik, Ul/Boh's have won the Irish u-20's league for the last two years in a row.

I've said this loads of times, but club rugby is a lot stronger than schools rugby in Munster. Look at the amount of senior clubs in Cork, (Con, Dolphin, UCC, Sunday's Well (?), Highfield, Midleton, Clonakilty) and then ask how come there's only two main rugby schools in Cork? It's a massive strength of Munster rugby.

Okay but I don't see a school like that succeeding in Leinster realistically do you? Really a school that just started at the turn of the millenium? It wouldn;t happen in Leinster. I know about Caseltroy. Its a great achievement, but Limerick is different to Leinster and the demographics and club catchment wouldn't work. There is also the fact that the depth of Leinster is far bigger.

The club scene is obviousely better in Munster, however, I believe schools will always produce more players who are more ready for professional rugby sooner.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:56PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I've said this loads of times, but club rugby is a lot stronger than schools rugby in Munster. Look at the amount of senior clubs in Cork, (Con, Dolphin, UCC, Sunday's Well (?), Highfield, Midleton, Clonakilty) and then ask how come there's only two main rugby schools in Cork? It's a massive strength of Munster rugby.

Yet all the current Munster players went to a rugby school in Munster no?

Earls went to Munchins, O'Gara and Stringer went to Pres Cork, O'Leary went to CBC, Buckley went to Newbridge, Horan went to Munchins, Flannery went to Munchins, O'Callaghan went to CBC, Leamy went to Rockwell, Wallace went to Crescent, POC to CBS Limerick.

Other than Hayes and Quinlan all the current Munster starters are from rugby schools.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 07:03PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, because time and again we've been able to pull players out of the AIL and play them for Munster as we need to. Munster just have less turnover of players than other provinces.

It is telling that guys like Reddan and Ross can go from being way down the list in Munster to first choice in other teams. I really think people under-estimate the AIL.

Of those players though who could get gametime for Munster,Ulster, Leinster or Connacht though?

I mean Leinster have produced 10 players good enough to actually start for provinces to Munsters 3 but if you want to talk about Leinster players in the AIL good enough to be called on then theres Madigan,Mckinley,Kearney,Keating,Paul O'Donaghue,Kevin McLaughlin,Royce Burke Flynn, Jason Harris Wright, Eoin O'Malley, Sheridan etc. the list goes on

Its all well and good having players to be called on but the fact is if Leinster have heaps of youth products currently deemed good enough to warrant starting for a provincial team, Munster have 3, Ulster have 4, Connacht have none. Thats the problem

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 07:16PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Yet all the current Munster players went to a rugby school in Munster no?

Earls went to Munchins, O'Gara and Stringer went to Pres Cork, O'Leary went to CBC, Buckley went to Newbridge, Horan went to Munchins, Flannery went to Munchins, O'Callaghan went to CBC, Leamy went to Rockwell, Wallace went to Crescent, POC to CBS Limerick.

Other than Hayes and Quinlan all the current Munster starters are from rugby schools.

Earls went to Munchins for the senior cup, Buckley went to Newbridge for the senior cup, DOC went to CBC for sixth year, Leamy went to Rockwell for the senior cup, POC went to Ardscoil Ris. Of the players you mentioned, most started playing rugby underage with their club, and most then went to a non-rugby school only to transfer over when their talent became obvious. Strange that...

If anything, a huge number of Munster players come through the youths where if they get spotted they are "poached" by a rugby school, D. Ryan went to school in Nenagh til sixth year, for example.

thehighground · 19-06-2009 07:25PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Earls went to Munchins for the senior cup, Buckley went to Newbridge for the senior cup, DOC went to CBC for sixth year, Leamy went to Rockwell for the senior cup, POC went to Ardscoil Ris. Of the players you mentioned, most started playing rugby underage with their club, and most then went to a non-rugby school only to transfer over when their talent became obvious. Strange that...

If anything, a huge number of Munster players come through the youths where if they get spotted they are "poached" by a rugby school, D. Ryan went to school in Nenagh til sixth year, for example.

Good time to mention that Luke Fitzgerald played for Cork Con. as a kid before heading off to secondary school in Blackrock

Obviously why he was on the Munster radar.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 07:31PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Earls went to Munchins for the senior cup, Buckley went to Newbridge for the senior cup, DOC went to CBC for sixth year, Leamy went to Rockwell for the senior cup, POC went to Ardscoil Ris. Of the players you mentioned, most started playing rugby underage with their club, and most then went to a non-rugby school only to transfer over when their talent became obvious. Strange that...

If anything, a huge number of Munster players come through the youths where if they get spotted they are "poached" by a rugby school, D. Ryan went to school in Nenagh til sixth year, for example.

Buckley,Earls,Leamy moved to those schools when they were 15 and it was there they really excelled. It may have been club rugby that made the schools notice but it was the schools that got them to where they are. The fact is not one Munster player other than Quinlan and Hayes came from the club system. Any club players good enough will play for the big schools before they are 15 just like in Leinster.

But what has any of this got to do with the lack of talent Munster are producing?

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 07:32PM

thehighground wrote: »

Good time to mention that Luke Fitzgerald played for Cork Con. as a kid before heading off to secondary school in Blackrock Obviously why he was on the Munster radar.

I'd struggle to name one player who hasnt played for a club as a kid.

Whats your point?

thehighground · 19-06-2009 07:45PM

Size=everything wrote: »

I'd struggle to name one player who hasnt played for a club as a kid.

No need to struggle anymore - BOD is another who didn't play club rugby as a kid. He only started playing rugby when he went to Blackrock College.

Whats your point?

A Munster club 'nurtured' Luke Fitzgerald at an early age. If Cork Con. hadn't got him, he might have continued going to a Gael Scoil (playing hurling) when he returned to Dublin with his family.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 07:54PM

thehighground wrote: »

No need to struggle anymore - BOD is another who didn't play club rugby as a kid. He only started playing rugby when he went to Blackrock College.

A Munster club 'nurtured' Luke Fitzgerald at an early age. If Cork Con. hadn't got him, he might have continued going to a Gael Scoil (playing hurling) when he returned to Dublin with his family.

You are really clutching at straws to say Luke Fitzgerald wasn't brought through the Leinster system because he briefly played for a Munster club as a child is beyond ridiculous. His dad was a famous rugby player I think that had something to do with him playing rugby....
But thats beside the point, He is a product of years of training in the Leinster youth system and is one of many Leinster have churned out. I dont consider playing briefly for a club when you are a kid as factoring any way in how the player plays today when he spent over a decade in the Leinster youth system. Nice try though.

Honestly don't know why people are letting provincial bias get in the way of what should be a good discussion claiming Fitzgerald was nurtured by Munster to the player he is today because he played briefly for a Munster club when he was a child is really clutching at straws. I am not debating with you further the highground as I have seen you time and time again turn interesting, thoughtful threads into petty, tit for tat, provincial nonesense so good day to you.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 08:15PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Buckley,Earls,Leamy moved to those schools when they were 15 and it was there they really excelled. It may have been club rugby that made the schools notice but it was the schools that got them to where they are. The fact is not one Munster player other than Quinlan and Hayes came from the club system. Any club players good enough will play for the big schools before they are 15 just like in Leinster.

But what has any of this got to do with the lack of talent Munster are producing?

So the two years they played schools was the reason they made it as pro's, would you stop messing....

Earls was playing underage rugby with Thomond since he was five, but the two years in Munchins that made him what he is I guess? What rubbish, incredibly disrespectful to his underage coaches in Thomond too, imo.

My point is your taking your lead from schools rugby but in Munster the clubs are much stronger so it's the AIL format which brings Munster players through. The talent in Munster is in the top AIL clubs.

thehighground · 19-06-2009 08:16PM

Size=everything wrote: »

You are really clutching at straws to say Luke Fitzgerald wasn't brought through the Leinster system because he briefly played for a Munster club as a child is beyond ridiculous. His dad was a famous rugby player I think that had something to do with him playing rugby....
But thats beside the point, He is a product of years of training in the Leinster youth system and is one of many Leinster have churned out. I dont consider playing briefly for a club when you are a kid as factoring any way in how the player plays today when he spent over a decade in the Leinster youth system. Nice try though.

Honestly don't know why people are letting provincial bias get in the way of what should be a good discussion claiming Fitzgerald was nurtured by Munster to the player he is today because he played briefly for a Munster club when he was a child is really clutching at straws. I am not debating with you further the highground as I have seen you time and time again turn interesting, thoughtful threads into petty, tit for tat, provincial nonesense so good day to you.

Good, got the toys out of the pram. You started this thread called: " The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

I'm just pointing out it isn't Leinster dominated. Munster & Leinster have two different approaches. If you are giving the credit for inspiring Luke Fitzgerald to his father Des who played his rugby for De la Salle, you can credit Johnny Sexton, Jamie Heaslip whose family all hail/played for Munster clubs to them. (And I only mentioned Luke really, because someone (good humouredly) pointed out that the Munster Academy wanted him). As far as I know, the Leinster Academy only got interested in Luke when the Munster Academy showed some interest (apparently approached by Luke's Dad who obviously having lived in Cork, had good rugby contacts down there).

Sorry, I don't go along with your charade that this isn't a "Leinster is better than Munster" thread. That is all you are trying to prove. It is quite obvious from the title of the thread, which I didn't start.

A more neutral title might have been: "Where is all the Irish rugby talent being nutured'.

Just one other point - it is possible to have all the talent at underage etc., but its the top 2 inches that count. Plenty of time for all of those you mention to fail yet. Think of it - out of the group that won the U-19 World Cup - only ones playing pro rugby are BOD, DOC & Paddy Wallace.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 08:23PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

So the two years they played schools was the reason they made it as pro's, would you stop messing....

Earls was playing underage rugby with Thomond since he was five, but the two years in Munchins that made him what he is I guess? What rubbish, incredibly disrespectful to his underage coaches in Thomond too, imo.

My point is your taking your lead from schools rugby but in Munster the clubs are much stronger so it's the AIL format which brings Munster players through. The talent in Munster is in the top AIL clubs.

Its irrelevant. My point is where are the young players Munster have produced that are good enough to warrant starting for a province other than Cronin, Earls and Holland?

The Munster players playing in AIL are still not good enough to warrant starting regularly for a provincial team unlike Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Sexton,Toner,Healy,Sean O'Brien, McFadden,Kearney,Cave,Keatley,Fionn Carr etc.

If these players were capable then they would be getting game time for Munster or would be signed up by another province.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 08:29PM

Sorry, I don't go along with your charade that this isn't a "Leinster is better than Munster" thread. That is all you are trying to prove. It is quite obvious from the title of the thread, which I didn't start.

A more neutral title might have been: "Where is all the Irish rugby talent being nutured'.

Oh just stop I don't care where the player is from I am just pointing out what I think is obvious. Unlike most users here I support Irish rugby and only preferance Leinster when they are playing other irish teams I had never even heard of the nonsence that goes on here till i started posting and now it seems I can criticise anything to do with an opposing province which is horse**** most people can see I am simply trying to have a discussion not dick waving. You are probably going to get this thread closed now well done I'm sure your delighted.

Just one other point - it is possible to have all the talent at underage etc., but its the top 2 inches that count. Plenty of time for all of those you mention to fail yet. Think of it - out of the group that won the U-19 World Cup - only ones playing pro rugby are BOD, DOC & Paddy Wallace.

Hence why im not mentioning non established players I am talking about the Kearneys,Fitzgeralds,Heaslips,Sextons, Healys etc. all of whom have made it at the top level it is amazo who is bringing up unproven AIL youth players.

thehighground · 19-06-2009 08:44PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Oh just stop I don't care where the player is from I am just pointing out what I think is obvious. Unlike most users here I support Irish rugby and only preferance Leinster when they are playing other irish teams I had never even heard of the nonsence that goes on here till i started posting and now it seems I can criticise anything to do with an opposing province which is horse**** most people can see I am simply trying to have a discussion not dick waving. You are probably going to get this thread closed now well done I'm sure your delighted.

You might try and disguise your "dick waving" a bit by changing the thread title then.

Hence why im not mentioning non established players I am talking about the Kearneys,Fitzgeralds,Heaslips,Sextons, Healys etc. all of whom have made it at the top level it is amazo who is bringing up unproven AIL youth players.

My assessment on what is now 5 players:
Kearney seems to have hit a wall - hopefully he will come through;
Heaslip is on a high at the moment - think he is the real deal.
Sexton: Jury still out - he has not played at international level yet (Denis Hurley had a great couple of games for Munster then went backwards at the rate of knots).
Healy: Looks to be the real deal.

The rest - no one knows.

19-06-2009 08:50PM

thehighground wrote: »

You might try and disguise your "dick waving" a bit by changing the thread title then.

My assessment on what is now 5 players:
Kearney seems to have hit a wall - hopefully he will come through;
Heaslip is on a high at the moment - think he is the real deal.
Sexton: Jury still out - he has not played at international level yet (Denis Hurley had a great couple of games for Munster then went backwards at the rate of knots).
Healy: Looks to be the real deal.

The rest - no one knows.

Oh please,hes in **** form but still good enough to be on the Lions bench.

When he regains his form he will be up there with the best 15's in the world again.

Paul Smeenus · 19-06-2009 08:57PM

"Its all well and good having players to be called on but the fact is if Leinster have heaps of youth products currently deemed good enough to warrant starting for a provincial team, Munster have 3, Ulster have 4, Connacht have none."

Just out of interest, as regards Ulster, which four of Caldwell, Ferris, Pollock, Henry, O'Connor, Marshall, Cave, Trimble and Bowe do you mean? (Not counting Whitten, McCrae, TJ Anderson or Falloon.) Bit cheeky to mention Trimble perhaps, but he's the same age as Heaslip.

19-06-2009 09:00PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

"Its all well and good having players to be called on but the fact is if Leinster have heaps of youth products currently deemed good enough to warrant starting for a provincial team, Munster have 3, Ulster have 4, Connacht have none."

Just out of interest, as regards Ulster, which four of Caldwell, Ferris, Pollock, Henry, O'Connor, Marshall, Cave, Trimble and Bowe do you mean? (Not counting Whitten, McCrae, TJ Anderson or Falloon.) Bit cheeky to mention Trimble perhaps, but he's the same age as Heaslip.

Paul is it correct to say that the reason Ulster lose alot of their underage talent is because they go over to the UK to study in college and they are lost to Ulster rugby.

Ulster have loads of players in under age ireland teams but alot seem to dissapear.

thehighground · 19-06-2009 09:00PM

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

Oh please,hes in **** form but still good enough to be on the Lions bench.

When he regains his form he will be up there with the best 15's in the world again.

I hope he does - he just reminds me a bit of Geordan Murphy prior to 2003 World Cup ... I also think of how Gordon Darcy went off the rails a bit for a while when he was his age.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:00PM

thehighground wrote: »

You might try and disguise your "dick waving" a bit by changing the thread title then.

My assessment on what is now 5 players:
Kearney seems to have hit a wall - hopefully he will come through;
Heaslip is on a high at the moment - think he is the real deal.
Sexton: Jury still out - he has not played at international level yet (Denis Hurley had a great couple of games for Munster then went backwards at the rate of knots).
Healy: Looks to be the real deal.

The rest - no one knows.

Kearney is a Lions player I think we can call him a successful prospect.

The fact is Leinster have
Sean O'Brien, Sexton, Healy, Felix Jones, Fitzgerald, Keatley, Fionn Carr, Toner, Heaslip, McFadden all of which you'd be confident to say will be in the Irish 22 in a few years time.
Munster have Earls and Cronin and thats it. They have no other young players that have made it to regular ML level at this stage Munster have a lot of youth in the AIL (but so does Leinster) but nothing to show for it other than Earls

The fact is the future Irish 22 for 2015 is probably going to be mostly Leinter with the way things are going and that isn't right. Leinster are doing something right at youth level that the other provinces arent and I want to find out why that is

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:03PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

"Its all well and good having players to be called on but the fact is if Leinster have heaps of youth products currently deemed good enough to warrant starting for a provincial team, Munster have 3, Ulster have 4, Connacht have none."

Just out of interest, as regards Ulster, which four of Caldwell, Ferris, Pollock, Henry, O'Connor, Marshall, Cave, Trimble and Bowe do you mean? (Not counting Whitten, McCrae, TJ Anderson or Falloon.) Bit cheeky to mention Trimble perhaps, but he's the same age as Heaslip.

Sorry I am referring to Cave, Caldwell, Ferris and Pollock and keep forgetting about Bowe! I'd put Trimble in the same basket as Dennis Hurley to be honest a player that we have seen is no longer a hot prospect.

Ulster have produced a number of youngsters but theres still room for improvement considering their playing pool IMO.

bigbadben · 19-06-2009 09:09PM

I dont see the point of this thread at all.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:12PM

bigbadben wrote: »

I dont see the point of this thread at all.

I want to know why so many of our current crop of prospects are Leinster trained.

Why is there such a gulf currently? does the Leinster branch have a better structure in place than the other provinces or like others have said is it due to Leinster having a stronger schools cup system? Either way what are Munster/Ulster,Connacht doing wrong?

Thats the point.

19-06-2009 09:13PM

bigbadben wrote: »

I dont see the point of this thread at all.

So your not interested in Irish youth rugby development.
The next generation of internationals dont grow on trees mate.

ch2008 · 19-06-2009 09:14PM

Its a valid thread ruined by people eagre to take/give offence. Probably best locked tbh

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 09:17PM

ch2008 wrote: »

Its a valid thread ruined by people eagre to take/give offence. Probably best locked tbh

I dont see why the thread has to be locked because one or two idiots decided to take offence and divert the thread from its original intent because they dont like some of the conclusions in it. One user in particular who I wont name always does this to interesting threads and gets them locked and I dont want this to happen to this one as youth development is pivital to irish rugby and something that needs to be discussed IMO.

thehighground · 19-06-2009 09:21PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Kearney is a Lions player I think we can call him a successful prospect.

The fact is Leinster have
Sean O'Brien, Sexton, Healy, Felix Jones, Fitzgerald, Keatley, Fionn Carr, Toner, Heaslip, McFadden all of which you'd be confident to say will be in the Irish 22 in a few years time.
Munster have Earls and Cronin and thats it. They have no other young players that have made it to regular ML level at this stage Munster have a lot of youth in the AIL (but so does Leinster) but nothing to show for it other than Earls

--
These are mostly backs. Tomas O'Leary was captaining the Cork Minor Hurlers to an All Ireland title at the same age as some of those mentioned above. Hayes & Ryan didn't start playing rugby until they were 18/19 - so who knows? Jeremy Staunton was another 'hot prospect' at one stage in Munster - so excuse me if I don't think they have all made it once they have played a bit of ML/HC.

I'd say Munster know what they are doing - and seem to be stick to picking the cream of the crop for their own needs. They obviously don't see it as their job to develop players for other clubs. Fair play to Leinster rugby if they do

Quote from Munster rugby website:

We catch up with [Munster] Academy manager Ian Sherwin below:

Is it a concern that so few players are coming into the Academy this year?
No not at all, we tend to focus on quality over quantity and we pick players according to the specific needs of the professional game in terms of succession, for example when there is a shortage of players in a specific position we focus our recruitment efforts on filling that position. We believe in working with a core group of elite players that we can work closely with. These things also work in cycles and last year we recruited seven players to make up a group of 15 participants and this year we will have 13.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/9668.php

The fact is the future Irish 22 for 2015 is probably going to be mostly Leinter with the way things are going and that isn't right. Leinster are doing something right at youth level that the other provinces arent and I want to find out why that is

Well, up to now Munster have been providing the bulk of the 22. About time Leinster put their shoulder to the wheel!

PS - what do you think of the Ruddock boys coming to Leinster? Do you feel guilty that they got most of their rugby education from the Os?

Paul Smeenus · 19-06-2009 09:29PM

Goose - it statistically must be true, given how many young folk in general we lose that way - the Brain Drain. It's very, very common. But if you asked me to pinpoint someone who I was aware of that I could say had "gotten away", I couldn't name any names. I know there are a lot of ex-Ulster youngsters in Div 1 in England - Andress etc. But I don't know any that are really setting the world ablaze.

Size - I agree with your last point about there being room for improvement. Absolutely I do. But you're not clear about what you're asking. All those other players have regularly started for Ulster, and you asked about how many youngster start at provinces. So we have at least twice the "four" young players who at a level where they start Magners/Heineken Cup games.

Although, to be fair, O'Connor is a can of worms... as for Trimble, I think - or perhaps "hope" is more honest - he can turn it around again.

The fact that we have fielded so many youngsters is part of the reason we didn't deliver this season. This is compunded by the fact that a number of our important imports (Willis, Diack, Nagusa) are young. We could well do with a couple of older, wiser heads.

The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

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