The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

GymJim · 19-06-2009 04:35PM

Size=everything wrote: »

But other than Daragh Hurley, Ryan, O'Mahony and Holland I really can't see any of them break through.

Burke is third choice outhalf for Irish Under 20s. 3rd choice? Who's the 2nd choice? He's 2nd and it's really a toss up between him and McKinley. Burke better passer but McKinley better kicker.
Murray is second choice to Matthew Healy for Irish Under 20s. No he was 1st choice after coming on and playing outstanding v NZ. he is better than Healy just selectors tended to pick half-backs in pairs (Healy-Mckinley v Murray-Burke)
Foley didnt make the Irish under 20. Was he not over age?
Grace has gotten no game time at top level. Plays week-in week-out at Shannon.
O'Donnell has had no game time at top level. Played ML last season.
Gleeson has had no game time at top level. Played ML last season and every week for Con
Nagle doesnt start for Irish Under 20s. Doesn't mean he's a bad player...I note you don't point out the Leinster U20's who aren't 1st choice.
Williams played one ML game last year and at 23 hasnt been seen since and Muster have signed another back up SH. Fair enough.
Melbournes has had no game time at top level. Played a no of ML games last season.
Dennis Hurley in my eyes is not a prospect. Granted...had his name struck-thru but seemed to disappear once quoted.

Like the players I listed for Leinster were all getting game time at ML level at the very least I wasnt going to list academy players but even still Leinster come head and shoulders above Ulster, Munster and Connacht

Jack Mcgrath (Leinster A game time at prop at 18, starter for Irish Under 20s and AIL club)
Thomas Sexton (Regular started for Irish Under 20s, AIL club)
Thomas Flanagan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dominic Ryan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dave Kearney (Started ML, Leinster A regular and regular for club and Irish under 20s)
Sheridan (Leinster A, Club and regular starter for Irish Under 20s)
Ian Madigan (started for Leinster, regular Leinster A, Regular Irish under 20s)
Keating (Leinster A, scoring tries for fun in AIL, regular for Irish under 20s)
Matthew Healy (Leinster A, regular for Irish Under 20s)
Ian McKinley (Started for Leinster, regular for club and Irish Under 20s, Leinster A)

All those players are all under 20 as well but if I was to include the other players on the fringe of ever making the leinster 22 then :

Royce Burke Flynn (Regular for Leinster A, gone to New Zealand, massive prospect)
Jamie Hagan (Regular for Leinster A)
Jason Harris Wright (Leinster 22, Regular for Leinster A)
Connor McIreney (just signed for Ospreys)
Kyle Tonetti (Started for Leinster, Regular for Leinster A)
Kevin McLaughlin (Started for Leinster)
Eoin O'Malley (started for Leinster)

Theres still a massive gap which doesnt make sense

Re your "started for Leinster" I don't think this is a relevant basis for what you are trying to say. I agree they are very good players but you seem to ignore the Munster players above who played in relevant ML games yet you say it's relevant these players played in a worthless ML game the week before the HEC final when all other players were rested for following week.

You also seem to point out relevance of being AIL regulars for Leinster youngsters however ignore that all Munster players mentioned above are AIL regulars in Div1.

Yes Leinster have a dearth of very talented young players but that's not to say Munster don't. I think difference is far less than you perceive it to be from the number of young players Leinster have.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 04:46PM

First choice is McKinley who is widely regarded as the biggest prospect in Ireland whilst the second choice is slotting Ian Madigan into outhalf. In fact McKinley is even captaining the under 20s in the final game

Matthew Healy is first choice for Irish under 20s he started every game bar Wales and is once again starting in the final game.

Also I didn't mention any Leinster under 20s in my list who arent first choice for the Irish under 20 and I wasn't aware O'Donnell, Melbourne and Gleeson started for Munster in the Magners League last season.

By the way not turning this into a dick waving contest (as I really dont care) I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Stev_o · 19-06-2009 04:52PM

Size=everything wrote: »

First choice is McKinley who is widely regarded as the biggest prospect in Ireland whilst the second choice is slotting Ian Madigan into outhalf. In fact McKinley is even captaining the under 20s in the final game

Matthew Healy is first choice for Irish under 20s he started every game bar Wales and is once again starting in the final game.

Also I didn't mention any Leinster under 20s in my list who arent first choice for the Irish under 20 and I wasn't aware O'Donnell, Melbourne and Gleeson started for Munster in the Magners League last season.

By the way not turning this into a dick waving contest (as I really dont care) I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Well there's also the conspiracy theorists who say that the selectors a tad bit biased and aren't fully objective when it comes to selecting.

anonymous_joe · 19-06-2009 04:53PM

Just to attempt to offer some non-province level stuff here -

I went to one of the aforementioned 'big' Leinster schools. The standard of rugby played was very high and very demanding, from the age of 13 guys are playing for places on the SCT if we're realistic. There's some but not much drop off between the ages of 13 and 18.

Most people at that stage have stopped playing rugby, only taking it up again around 16 or 18 and playing for a laugh. There's little interest in 'serious' rugby for most people.

Those who still play commit themselves to a long time in the gym, where good money is spent on physios and coaches who know what they're doing. Therefore, the amateur boys have near pro coaches. When you consider that the likes of Declan Kidney were ex-school teachers, it's not hard to believe that some of the coaches at youth level are very very good - and that's the case. With investment in good facilities, coaches et al, the guys are physically in great shape.

Add to that, while many people resent the concept of the Senior Cup and all the attention it gets, I know that from my year in school a number of guys have played AIL First Division rugby, a few have played for UCD and some have been involved in the Leinster set up itself. So the outstanding schools players do tend to get taken into clubs quite quickly.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 04:56PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Well there's also the conspiracy theorists who say that the selectors a tad bit biased and aren't fully objective when it comes to selecting.

Well Allen Clarkle is the selector and hes from Ulster and in fairness no Ulster players in there dont deserve to be there so not too sure where this supposed conspiracy is?

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 04:58PM

Size=everything wrote: »

I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Perhaps, but most of the younger Munster players will be playing at a higher level week-in, week-out, next season.

Next season, between both top divisions of the AIL, Cork will have three teams (UCC, Con, and Dolphin) and Limerick will have four, (Shannon, Garryowen, Munsters, Ul/Boh's). That's an amazing achievement for a province with only 6 or 7 dedicated rugby schools, and far less underage players than either Leinster or Ulster.

[Jackass] · 19-06-2009 05:02PM

Stev_o wrote: »

How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster

- I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 05:07PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Perhaps, but most of the younger Munster players will be playing at a higher level week-in, week-out, next season.

Next season, between both top divisions of the AIL, Cork will have three teams (UCC, Con, and Dolphin) and Limerick will have four, (Shannon, Garryowen, Munsters, Ul/Boh's). That's an amazing achievement for a province with only 6 or 7 dedicated rugby schools, and far less underage players than either Leinster or Ulster.

Great achievement but Leinster having 6 AIL clubs to Munster's 7 isnt that far off so there is still a lot of Leinster players playing week in week out at the top level in AIL so it still doesnt make sense. According to the Irish Under 20s the Leinster players are well ahead of the other province's players and the Leinster clubs aren't far off.

Add to this the fact that outside the AIL
Kearney
Heaslip
Fitzgerald
Healy

4/6 of the most exciting young players in Irish rugby right now have come from Leinster (the other two being Earls and Ferris)

Then you look at the most exciting ML players
Keatley
Sexton
Fionn Carr
Felix Jones (I think he will definitely be playing ML next season)
Toner
Cave
Pollock
And other than Cave, Pollock these guys are all Leinster.

It just doesn't seem right that theres such a gulf

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 05:12PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster - I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

Excellent post, very interesting.

Bit O/T but if ever there was a candidate for poster of the year its jackass.

itsallaboutheL · 19-06-2009 05:13PM

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 05:15PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster - I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

So that's why Leinster have Stephen Keogh, Trevor Hogan, Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, and John Fogarty? Or why they tried to sign D. Fogarty and Donncha Ryan last year?

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 05:25PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Nope but :

Fitzgerald
Kearney
Healy
Heaslip
Sexton
Sean O'Brien

have all established themselves at the top level compared to Munster's Earls and Ulster's Ferris

Then you have

Keatley
Fionn Carr
Toner
McFadden

having established themselves regularly in the ML

And I have no doubt that Felix Jones will be a success.

So basically your looking at 11 Leinster academy products who have established themselves regularly

And of course thats excluding the exciting youth prospects that you'd bet your house will establish themselves in the next 2-3 seasons: McKinley, Dave Kearney, Madigan, McGrath, Keating

and players such as Paul O'Donaghue and Kevin McLaughlin who are set to have big seasons in 2009/2010

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 05:26PM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

A mixture of love for Rory Best and hatred for Shannon/Connacht?

itsallaboutheL · 19-06-2009 05:28PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

A mixture of love for Rory Best and hatred for Shannon/Connacht?

Than is pure animal! anything that big that travels that fast deserves recognition!!

Chucky the tree · 19-06-2009 05:33PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

lol. Yea the reason is their all regulars in the Irish team, why should they retire?:pac:

anonymous_joe · 19-06-2009 05:35PM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

Because it's harder to impress at hooker. Flannery, Jackman and Best are all very good, and the Fogarty's are good too.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

So that's why Leinster have Stephen Keogh, Trevor Hogan, Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, and John Fogarty? Or why they tried to sign D. Fogarty and Donncha Ryan last year?

Please, please, please don't go down this road.

You've got Niall Ronan, Felix Jones and Ian Dowling. We've got the above-mentioned.

Look - there are going to be two Leinster players in the Munster first team next season and vice versa.

That does not have anything to do with the quality of academies.

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Of course it doesn't - that's why Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney are Grand Slam Champions, Heineken Cup champions, have won a Magners League and are British and Irish Lions. Keith Earls has played about 30 games in the same period they've been playing - he's been underused by Munster, but that's beside the point, where he's the one shining example of Munster's academy, Leinster have more...

Just because Ulster and Leinster are bigger provinces than Munster (in terms of playing numbers.) does not mean they're in someway superior.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 05:36PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Nope but :

Fitzgerald
Kearney
Healy
Heaslip
Sexton
Sean O'Brien

have all established themselves at the top level compared to Munster's Earls and Ulster's Ferris

Then you have

Keatley
Fionn Carr
Toner
McFadden

having established themselves regularly in the ML

And I have no doubt that Felix Jones will be a success.

So basically your looking at 11 Leinster academy products who have established themselves regularly

And of course thats excluding the exciting youth prospects that you'd bet your house will establish themselves in the next 2-3 seasons: McKinley, Dave Kearney, Madigan, McGrath, Keating

and players such as Paul O'Donaghue and Kevin McLaughlin who are set to have big seasons in 2009/2010

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

For the most part they are all playing top level AIL and most will be good enough to step in to take over with Munster. that wouldn't be including guys like Varley, Cronin, Dave Ryan, Murray, O'Hara, Hayes, Barnes etc.

I don't see any reason to panic over Munster's prospects.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 05:37PM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Than is pure animal! anything that big that travels that fast deserves recognition!!

I agree, I'd go as far as to have him in Irish squads ahead of Rory Best. Cronin is a freakish talent, imo.

d-gal · 19-06-2009 05:53PM

It's been hard for munster to break thru certain players especially in the forwards as they have had such a long term team. The likes of POC, Wallace, DOC, Hayes, Fla, Sheahan, Horan, O'Driscoll, Foley have/had been around for years. Even if you look at the back-ups for the backrow in munster - the likes of Holland, O'Donnell and Grace, 3 unbelievably good players that can't get a sniff at the starting 22, yet the likes of Grace was MOTM in the AIL final with Shannon.
Remember these guys are not getting called into Irish 'A' Squads simply beacuse of the other excellent backrows around the country who are getting ML/HC gametime. Munster are producing, just not quite as much in the backline - which is typical of Munster anyways!
The great thing about the forwards is that they are getting huge experience training with practically the Irish pack in every training session, same goes saying with the Leinster backs. Personally I think it's brilliant for the nation and we should all be delighted with it.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 05:57PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

For the most part they are all playing top level AIL and most will be good enough to step in to take over with Munster. that wouldn't be including guys like Varley, Cronin, Dave Ryan, Murray, O'Hara, Hayes, Barnes etc.

I don't see any reason to panic over Munster's prospects.

All the players I listed were regular starters in the Magners League in your list only Earls can make that claim. If your going to list players who are in the AIL I can list one twice as long but the fact is we are talking about established players

Buckley is 28 he is not a young prospect! And Williams is a product of Connacht not that it matters because I am listing established players playing regularly in either the ML or Ireland A players such as

Toner
Heaslip
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Sean O'Brien
McFadden
Felix Jones
Kearney
Keatley
Fionn Carr

Not players in the AIL who may or may not make it (though I did do a list of them for you earlier in the thread as well)

Of all those players you listed other than Earls not one holds a candle to the Leinster players I listed being churned out. This IS a problem and not to single out Munster as I believe Ulster should be doing more as well its just you are trying to argue with me that this isnt the case using Munster as an example and I think anyone can see judging from the players you listed to mine there is a massive gulf.

Once again really dont care about province loyalties I am trying to have a frank discussion, if your offended then stay out of the thread and dont let it descend into provincial nonsense as this is an interesting discussion (to me anyway)

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:02PM

d-gal wrote: »

It's been hard for munster to break thru certain players especially in the forwards as they have had such a long term team. The likes of POC, Wallace, DOC, Hayes, Fla, Sheahan, Horan, O'Driscoll, Foley have/had been around for years. Even if you look at the back-ups for the backrow in munster - the likes of Holland, O'Donnell and Grace, 3 unbelievably good players that can't get a sniff at the starting 22, yet the likes of Grace was MOTM in the AIL final with Shannon.
Remember these guys are not getting called into Irish 'A' Squads simply beacuse of the other excellent backrows around the country who are getting ML/HC gametime. Munster are producing, just not quite as much in the backline - which is typical of Munster anyways!
The great thing about the forwards is that they are getting huge experience training with practically the Irish pack in every training session, same goes saying with the Leinster backs. Personally I think it's brilliant for the nation and we should all be delighted with it.

To me it strikes me as Ireland needing another team in the Magners League as 4 clubs just isn't enough to give every prospect a chance.

Though I also feel that what you said is a bit of a cop out, I mean Sean O'Brien and McFadden had to compete with IMO the two best players in the world right now but still got game time whilst Toner had Malcom O'Kelly and Sexton had Contepomi however Leinster still gave them time to flourish why cant Munster do the same for their youngsters? Kearney and Fitzgerald had two Irish regulars ahead of them. If they were good enough they'd play but then the question begs are they good enough but the Munster management is wrapping them in wool impeeding their talent?

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 06:08PM

Size=everything wrote: »

A

Of all those players you listed other than Earls not one holds a candle to the Leinster players I listed being churned out.

Are you being serious? Most of the players I listed are doing it week-in, week-out at the top of the AIL and have done well for Munster when called upon. Guys like Donncha Ryan would walk into most squads in Europe, for example. Duncan Willams is not from Connacht, btw.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:15PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Are you being serious? Most of the players I listed are doing it week-in, week-out at the top of the AIL and have done well for Munster when called upon. Guys like Donncha Ryan would walk into most squads in Europe, for example. Duncan Willams is not from Connacht, btw.

Yes and the guys I listed were doing it week in week out in the Magners League, Heinken Cup, International and Lions thats my point.

You listed some young prospects who may or may not make it to the ML and Donnacha Ryan is 26 so I think we can stop calling him a young prospect at this stage unless you think Shane Jennings can be called a young prospect!

I listed young prospects already well established in the ML and in most cases playing HC rugby and either playing or about to play for Ireland.

Name a Munster academy product under 25 regularly playing in the Magners League other than Earls

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:18PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Duncan Willams is not from Connacht, btw.

Sorry was thinking of O'Sullivan but its a moot point because we are discussing young players who have established themselves above the AIL regularly of which Leinster has rakes compared to the other provinces.

Jackz · 19-06-2009 06:27PM

What's Nuture?

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 06:27PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Name a Munster academy product under 25 regularly playing in the Magners League other than Earls

Sean Cronin, with Connacht. Billy Holland played in 6 games with us this season, as well as captaining Con, McFadden played 7 with Leinster.

Munster don't need to bring though as many players as other provinces do, our first team is pretty good and for the most part, young enough. I listed off our second team which is full of guys who are playing at a high level in the AIL and who have come in when they are needed. You perhaps don't rate the AIL, imo, I wouldn't be worried if we'd to call a player from it at short notice, like O'Boyle or Doyle this year.

Amazotheamazing · 19-06-2009 06:28PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Sorry was thinking of O'Sullivan but its a moot point because we are discussing young players who have established themselves above the AIL regularly of which Leinster has rakes compared to the other provinces.

O'Sullivan is from Tralee, played with both LIT and Garryowen before going to Connacht. He's moving to Agen.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:31PM

Jackz wrote: »

What's Nuture?

haha you bastard didnt notice that mistake

themont85 · 19-06-2009 06:36PM

I've already written a good few posts about the quality of young players coming through. There is definately a hell of a lot more coming out of Leinster than Munster, with Ulster provided a fair number. Munster are producing talent but not at the rate of Leinster where prospects may not even be full Academy. Ian Madigan, who isn't even in the Acadamy has played for the full Leinster team-http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/academyprofiles.php. Leinster consistantly win underage provincial games more than any other province, eventually that will start to tell at senior ranks despite Munster and their AIL dominance(which is a vital source of players for them, those guys develop a couple of years after the schools ones imo).

I agree with Tim Robbins, it would be impossible for a Castletroy like leap of a school in Leinster to glory. Rugby is a demanding sport and needs a lot of training put in and can't just be played like soccer in the street or with meagre facilities. Scrum machines, properly equipped gyms with fitness coaching, decent pitches and several coaches are needed on the tactical aspect. In addition to this there is the players needs to suceed. You need a large enough school year (over 80 is a must) where well over half play rugby. In Munster you have CBC Cork and PBC, then maybe Munchins, Rockwell, Castletroy(now), Crescent and maybe Glenstal. But for the 5 or 6 schools in Munster there is well over double in Leinster who take it seriousely and crucially more boarding schools. There is a reason why Clongowes Wood College are producing heaps of quality players, complete immersion in the game despite being a small enough school. Ditto for Newbridge until they stopped it. That is a reason why Kilkenny and Roscrea are now doing decent. And Blackrock always have a good few boarders which puts them over the top. Rock also have the biggest years(nearly 200 per year) and the coaches and history of player production to send them over the top. I don't see a average CBS or community school being able to compete with that in Leinster.

In Munster, Castletroy succeeded because there isn't a lot of schools and schools which have boarding to them. If a school isn't boarding they need to have a big enough year(a la Terenure and Belvedere in Dublin). If you don't have that your school must be rugby dominated entirely like Marys or Michaels with a history in the game, those schools don't have cup winning teams every year but have the facilities/history ect to keep up. That is the aim of other schools. Castleknock once a very big rugby school now haven't won the cup for almost 50 years and there is good reason to it. You have schools like Gonzaga, consistant but have never made the semis. We've seen schools try and make it back to the top table like CBC(CBC Monkstown were one of the very top schools in the late 70s/early 80s then fell of for 15 years, not really new to the table), Gonzaga, Roscrea, Kilkenny and Newbridge(very big in the 90s). These schools put a lot of effort into having the exact same standards as the Rocks or Marys, but it will take a few years for things to quite fall in place.

In short rugby needs facilities, training and coaching in addition to talent to really produce players and teams. Leinster have a competition which breeds this year in year out which means they dominate until the early 20s. Munster do make a comeback at the later years and for years the combination of their smaller schools pool and club players have matched Leinster/Ulster. I do worry about this long term for Munster though, there is only so many diamond in the rough guys like Hayes in the now Professional era. Professionalism is needed right down the age grades now to suceed and not to be left behind. Its upto the IRFU to push the game in more schools like Castletroy, put more money into the clubs and to ensure the balance of players stays the same.

Size=everything · 19-06-2009 06:38PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sean Cronin, with Connacht. Billy Holland played in 6 games with us this season, as well as captaining Con, McFadden played 7 with Leinster.

Munster don't need to bring though as many players as other provinces do, our first team is pretty good and for the most part, young enough. I listed off our second team which is full of guys who are playing at a high level in the AIL and who have come in when they are needed. You perhaps don't rate the AIL, imo, I wouldn't be worried if we'd to call a player from it at short notice, like O'Boyle or Doyle this year.

So essentially 3 players to Leinsters 10 youngsters who play regularly in the ML do you not see a problem with this?

The fact is if a player is good enough he wouldn't be playing in the AIL currently he would either move if he was good enough to get gametime elsewhere (like Keatley, Carr, Felix Jones, Cronin) or would be sticking with his province getting some game time(Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Kearney,Sexton,Sean O'Brien,McFadden,Healy,Toner,Earls,Cave)
The fact is if a player is good enough he will get ML game time if not at his province then elsewhere

The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

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