AIL players who should move province?

Amazotheamazing · 15-06-2009 03:49PM #1

Just wondering about this since the AIL final. Eoghan Grace was arguably the best forward on the pitch, but is behind Wallace, Ronan and O'Donnell in getting a chance with Munster. I know players have to bide their time to get into the Munster team, but is it good for Irish rugby that it is so? For example, O'Boyle waited a long time to get Munster starts, scores two tries and then gets injured, hard luck on a guy who might have been better spending time with Connacht or in the GP.

Watching the Ireland A game last night, Leinster guys like McFadden and Jones really stood, Jones is moving to Munster, but McFadden will be behind BOD (and probably Fitz) for HEC rugby. A guy like Eoin O'Malley is even further down the ranks. It's great for Leinster to have these guys to call on, but is it great for Irish rugby that they aren't playing at a higher standard. Would Johnny Murphy be near the Ireland A squad if he'd stayed with Lansdowne? Tim Ryan has had to move to Toulon to try and get games, O'Sullivan is off to Agen.

Same is true of guys like Ronan, Buckley, Donncha Ryan and Denis Fogarty who are forced into playing the waiting game until they can get proper HEC time with Munster.

What players, largely playing in the AIL, should look to move?

merviewlad · 15-06-2009 04:57PM

There is a fella from ballymena who is with ulster.his name is jamie smith.i seen him play against galwegians in the ail and he looked like a class act.can play full back or wing and is only about 21.

Dev7 · 15-06-2009 05:23PM

Surely someone like Shane Monahan, top try scorer in the ail with Blackrock should move to Connacht or somewhere. He's only 21ish

Crash · 15-06-2009 08:11PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Just wondering about this since the AIL final. Eoghan Grace was arguably the best forward on the pitch, but is behind Wallace, Ronan and O'Donnell in getting a chance with Munster. I know players have to bide their time to get into the Munster team, but is it good for Irish rugby that it is so? For example, O'Boyle waited a long time to get Munster starts, scores two tries and then gets injured, hard luck on a guy who might have been better spending time with Connacht or in the GP.

Watching the Ireland A game last night, Leinster guys like McFadden and Jones really stood, Jones is moving to Munster, but McFadden will be behind BOD (and probably Fitz) for HEC rugby. A guy like Eoin O'Malley is even further down the ranks. It's great for Leinster to have these guys to call on, but is it great for Irish rugby that they aren't playing at a higher standard. Would Johnny Murphy be near the Ireland A squad if he'd stayed with Lansdowne? Tim Ryan has had to move to Toulon to try and get games, O'Sullivan is off to Agen.

Same is true of guys like Ronan, Buckley, Donncha Ryan and Denis Fogarty who are forced into playing the waiting game until they can get proper HEC time with Munster.

What players, largely playing in the AIL, should look to move?

Whatever about O'Malley and Jones, I wouldn't class McFadden in there. Should hopefully be seeing much more gametime in the centre that would've been covered by contepomi last season, hopefully taking the 22 jersey on regular occasions. Especially with a boot like his. Only worry would be that Cheika would use Berne as backup centre over McFadden, but i'm not sure I can see that happening.

Podge_irl · 15-06-2009 08:14PM

Crash wrote: »

Whatever about O'Malley and Jones, I wouldn't class McFadden in there. Should hopefully be seeing much more gametime in the centre that would've been covered by contepomi last season, hopefully taking the 22 jersey on regular occasions. Especially with a boot like his. Only worry would be that Cheika would use Berne as backup centre over McFadden, but i'm not sure I can see that happening.

I would certainly hope McFadden will get a lot of game time next season, and I think he will, but unsure about the bench. Whose gonna be back up 10 on the bench?

Crash · 15-06-2009 08:19PM

Berne takes the 21 Jersey, McFadden takes 22. Or for lesser games, give McKinley the 21 jersey and bring the two of them on at the same time, (if McFaddens not starting) - his boots spot on so he covers where the younger OH's lack at the mo.

Course the only problem there is you've limited positional cover, but there's enough ability in the frontline players to rejig if needed.

thomond2006 · 15-06-2009 08:24PM

Having centrally contracting players gives the IRFU full control over the player's activities. It means that essential players like BOD, POC and ROG have their game time limited in order that they burn out.

It's really important to have guys like Tonetti, McFadden, D Ryan and others who can fill in and do a good job.

We should do our best not to lose players abroad. If they leave, it means the Union's control over them is gone. Think of Murphy, Casey not being released for training before 6N.

The system we have allows our best players to be fighting fit for national team games: 6n, AIs, Summer Tours etc.

In short, this is the void Connacht should be filling. Boot rejects like Troy Nathan out and allow guys like Keatley, Burke, Tonetti a chance to develop for Ireland.

Sorry if I went of the point a bit!

15-06-2009 08:27PM

Connacht's backline for next year could have been

15-Duffy
14-Carr
13-McFaden
12-O'Malley
11-Jones
10-Keatley
9-O'Donogue

That is how we should be doing it.

bigbadben · 15-06-2009 08:51PM

Mike Ross will be playing mostly AIL next season maybe he can go to Connacht the season after.

Amazotheamazing · 15-06-2009 09:02PM

I might have weighted it badly in the original post. I appreciate teams need strength in depth, but look at the age profiles of the Munster second rows, all have a good bit of playing left in them, all going well. How are highly rated young guys like Nagle and Foley going to break into the squad? How will Grace get games?

Our how will guys like O'Malley and Keating break into the Leinster team? There's Faloon in Ulster behind Pollock, at what point do players have to leave the AIL and their province?

15-06-2009 09:13PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I might have weighted it badly in the original post. I appreciate teams need strength in depth, but look at the age profiles of the Munster second rows, all have a good bit of playing left in them, all going well. How are highly rated young guys like Nagle and Foley going to break into the squad? How will Grace get games?

Our how will guys like O'Malley and Keating break into the Leinster team? There's Faloon in Ulster behind Pollock, at what point do players have to leave the AIL and their province?

When the need gametime they should leave but their old province should always be allowed 1st option on them at the end of their tenure at the new province,this would help I think because most coaches want to hang on to all their talent,prime example being Cheika who apperantly had a fit when he heard about Felix Jones.

bamboozle · 16-06-2009 09:43AM

hopefully with the AIL changing to a top 8 league next year and the Provincial A Competition a lot more fringe provincial players will have a better chance to shine at a more competitive level.

I'm a big fan of club rugby but the standard of the AIL has been terrible over the last few years, hopefully a top 8 league will see the standard (and crowds) improve.

Real FM · 16-06-2009 09:57AM

Completely agree with most of you here. We've got a problem with players with lots of potential not getting a chance and we've also got a problem with a province who are light years behind the rest when it comes to depth and resources. Its seems like a no brainer.

[Jackass] · 16-06-2009 12:20PM

Journee Careful Ramp wrote: »

Connacht's backline for next year could have been

15-Duffy
14-Carr
13-McFaden
12-O'Malley
11-Jones
10-Keatley
9-O'Donogue

That is how we should be doing it.

That's madness!! McFadden is second choice 13 art Leinster and had a half dozen games last season, Jones will get games at Munster as they badly need outside backs for depth, Leinster could use Keatley back as only one recognised out-half in squad and have signed a NIQ player to cover, O'Donoghue is second choice scrum-half at Leinster next season...

Fair enogh about Carr...although you sometimes wish your province could fit in all the players it produces as Jones is class and gone, Carr was top try scorer in the ML and could be amazing in the future...O'Malley can play 10,12 or 13 as far as I'm aware and has done well in the centre, but could use a season at Connacht maybe. It's a great young backline, but players like McFadden, O'Donohue, Jones are all on the verge of breaking through at their provinces and players allowed to go to Connacht like Carr or Keatley could very well be getting in now if they stayed, so it's not fair if teams have to give up ALL of their young players to other teams, as a lot will break through, and it dilutes the depth big time.

I want players going to Connacht as much as anyone, but the most talented players need to stay at their province and break through like players do at all teams. I want less Leinster players going to other provinces also :mad: (as that is a Leinster academy backline above with the exception of Duffy)

bigbadben wrote: »

Mike Ross will be playing mostly AIL next season maybe he can go to Connacht the season after.

Why would Ross be playing AIL next season? Leinster now have 5 props... Wright, CJ Van Der Linde, Healy, Ross, McCormack .... McCormack can expect to see very little game time, but Ross will se plenty, prop is probably the position where most rotation and depth is required, it's great to see that amount of depth at Leinster (with a couple of promising young props coming through - now those guys I wouldn't mind seeing going to Connacht for a couple of seasons to learn their trade and get game time, as this is an area that will be very difficult to break in to and Ireland desperatly needs the depth.)

Size=everything · 16-06-2009 12:31PM

Journee Careful Ramp wrote: »

Connacht's backline for next year could have been

15-Duffy
14-Carr
13-McFaden
12-O'Malley
11-Jones
10-Keatley
9-O'Donogue

That is how we should be doing it.

Bar Duffy an all Leinster produced backline. Leinster should really be applauded for the work they are doing for the future of the Irish game. Not only that but they have produced Healy,Toner,Sexton,Sean O'Brien who will all make massive marks in years to come as well as the two hottest young players in Irish rugby right now Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald.

Irish rugby's future would look a HELL of a lot bleaker without Leinster's youngsters

Amazotheamazing · 16-06-2009 12:44PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Bar Duffy an all Leinster produced backline. Leinster should really be applauded for the work they are doing for the future of the Irish game. Not only that but they have produced Healy,Toner,Sexton,Sean O'Brien who will all make massive marks in years to come as well as the two hottest young players in Irish rugby right now Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald.

Irish rugby's future would look a HELL of a lot bleaker without Leinster's youngsters

Or Ulster's, or Munster's.

Tim Robbins · 16-06-2009 12:48PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I might have weighted it badly in the original post. I appreciate teams need strength in depth, but look at the age profiles of the Munster second rows, all have a good bit of playing left in them, all going well. How are highly rated young guys like Nagle and Foley going to break into the squad? How will Grace get games?

Our how will guys like O'Malley and Keating break into the Leinster team? There's Faloon in Ulster behind Pollock, at what point do players have to leave the AIL and their province?

What's even worse is when they move provence and that provence then go abroad and get a few players for the same position.

Keiran Lewis - perfect example. He actually got more game time at Leinster.

Size=everything · 16-06-2009 02:02PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Or Ulster's, or Munster's.

Ulster have done well admitedly but Munster?

Earls and..........thats it.

Size=everything · 16-06-2009 02:03PM

Also look at the Irish U20s team vs New Zealand

10 players are Leinster academy with 2 more moving to Leinster from Wales next season to join the academy.

Amazotheamazing · 16-06-2009 03:11PM

Size=everything wrote: »

Ulster have done well admitedly but Munster?

Earls and..........thats it.

Em, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Fogarty and Sean Cronin, are all closer to the Irish team than most of the guys you mentioned. In fact, Fogarty and Ryan would probably get pretty close to most first teams in the ML, if they decided to leave Munster, in Munster, they can't even be sure of a spot on the bench.

I don't really want to turn this into another "my-province-is-so-the-best-eva" thread though.

anonymous_joe · 16-06-2009 04:24PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Fogarty and Sean Cronin, are all closer to the Irish team than most of the guys you mentioned. In fact, Fogarty and Ryan would probably get pretty close to most first teams in the ML, if they decided to leave Munster, in Munster, they can't even be sure of a spot on the bench.

I don't really want to turn this into another "my-province-is-so-the-best-eva" thread though.

I think the point people are trying to make though, is that they're not young at all... They're all mid twenties basically. In terms of numbers of underage players, Leinster and Ulster have more than Munster. Therefore, they'll produce a better standard of player.

It's not much more complicated than that.

Amazotheamazing · 16-06-2009 05:01PM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think the point people are trying to make though, is that they're not young at all... They're all mid twenties basically. In terms of numbers of underage players, Leinster and Ulster have more than Munster. Therefore, they'll produce a better standard of player.

It's not much more complicated than that.

Actually it is, there is a much higher drop off in players in both Ulster and Leinster than there is in Munster. People should stop banging the "we've-got-more-u-20's" drum and ask whats happening when these players leave the underage system. If Leinster and Ulster were actually great at bringing players through en masse their senior clubs would be in better shape. That's sort of the point of this thread, to point out that some players aren't reaching the point their potential suggested they would.

GymJim · 16-06-2009 05:59PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Actually it is, there is a much higher drop off in players in both Ulster and Leinster than there is in Munster. People should stop banging the "we've-got-more-u-20's" drum and ask whats happening when these players leave the underage system. If Leinster and Ulster were actually great at bringing players through en masse their senior clubs would be in better shape. That's sort of the point of this thread, to point out that some players aren't reaching the point their potential suggested they would.

Great point. Though I would hope the A competition proves worthwhile in this respect.

I don't understand the presumption Leinster will produce better standard players. The fact is that if Munster/Ulster have a good enough player who will actually improve their team (i.e. Earls/Cave) then they will be given the top level experience and they will be trusted in the HEC.

Looking at the U20's isn't too relevant for who will actually make it. For example, Burke and Murray imo look a hell of a lot better prospect as a partnership than Healy and McKinley. Yes Leinster do appear to have more players with potential at this stage but what use is that if they won't get a look in for years. Carr and Keatley being a prime example. Logically they would be ML regulars for Leinster at this stage but Beirne and Nacewa will fill their roles next season.

Felix Jones has had to move to Munster to get a look in...and what is interesting about this is that as Munster look to replace a lot of players over the next few years I can see more and more stagnated Leinster academy players make the same move. Realistically, only McFadden will get a lot of game time this year for Leinster...and still not much in the HEC.

I think a look at the likes of Norton, Brown et al who haven't quite made it with Leinster in the past is worth noting...these guys were stars of underage teams. I really wouldn't read any more into the U20's than just a sign of potential and not of who will actually make it at the highest level.

[Jackass] · 16-06-2009 06:09PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Actually it is, there is a much higher drop off in players in both Ulster and Leinster than there is in Munster. People should stop banging the "we've-got-more-u-20's" drum and ask whats happening when these players leave the underage system. If Leinster and Ulster were actually great at bringing players through en masse their senior clubs would be in better shape. That's sort of the point of this thread, to point out that some players aren't reaching the point their potential suggested they would.

*sigh*

Well, they do bring them through. Regular young players in the Leinster over last couple of seasons and / or will be next year...might as well put together a profile of them, cause it really is ridiculos...and then let no more be said!!

Cian Healy* (most promising prop in Ireland, lots of game time, 21)
Luke Fitzgerald (B&I Lion, 21)
Jamie Heaslip (B&I Lion, 25)
Devin Toner* (one of the most promising 2nd rows in Ireland, lots of game time, 23)
Kevin McLaughlin (may be his break through year..mark my words..class player, reason Ronan let go, 24)
Johno Sexton* (Number 2 out-half in Ireland, will be surpries if not first choice by world cup, 23)
Ian Keatley (one of the most promising 10's in Ireland, first choice at Connacht, Leinster could use him back, 22)
Sean O'Brien* (Most promising flanker in the country imo, loads of game time, outstanding player, 22)
Fionn Carr* (first teamer at Connacht, top try scorer in ML, 23)
Felix Jones* (gone to fill gaps at Munster, will probably be a first teamer at FB, 21)
Rob Kearney (B&I Lion, 23)
Eoin O'Malley (hope it's his break through season, fine versatile player, already in full squad, deffinitley a big one for the future, 20)
Paul O'Donohoe (No doubt future Irish Scrummie, man of the match AIL final, bags of talent, 2nd choice at Leinster, 21)
Fergus McFadden* (top class centre, finisher & goal kicker, getting game time, 23)
Ciallian Willis (got some game time for Ulster, didn't make the impact expected yet, 24)
Niall Ronan* (on the brink of first team at Munster, 2nd or 3rd top try scorer last season iirc, 27)
Conor McInerney (Good versatile player up front, gone to Ospreys, 22)

* Denotes good chance of getting capped in near future from the uncapped players.

All of the above are either getting first choice rugby regularly or are right on the brink but have gotten game time and are worth a mention. The below are Leinster academy players who have excelled at under age level and who I would expect to have big futures:

Jamie Hagan (Prop, very strong in scrum, last played v Queensland reds, 22)
Royce Burke Flynn (went to S.A. with Ollie to train, massive man, big future, 22)
Jason Harris Wright (Promising Hooker, hoping to see progress to senior squad soon, 21)
Dave Kearney (better than his B&I Lion brother at under-age level, 20)
Shane Monahan (lots of traffic ahead of him, but superb big player, Shane Horgan mould with bags more pace, 22)
Kyle Tonnetti (again, lots of traffic ahead of him, but outstanding in AIL, may well be senior squad for next season, lots of younf talent in Leinster backs though, 22)

Munster: (feel free to add, but as far as I'm aware...)

Keith Earls (B&I Lion, 21),
Thomas O'Leary (B&I Lion, 26),
Barry Murphy (getting game time, yet to prove himself, 27),
Donnacha Ryan (game time, yet to prove, 25),
Denis Fogarty (had some good game, 26)...

not exactly churning them out...didn't realise how old these "promising" players are...most mid to late 20's...I think pretty much every Leinster player above who's still at Leinster is younger than every one of these guys with the exception of Earls...

I wonder how good some of the Leinster players will be by mid - late 20's? Fitz will probably have 2 Lions tours under his belt my mid-20's...

This seems to be a hot topic right now!! But there ya go!

GymJim · 16-06-2009 06:57PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

*sigh*
versatile player up front, gone to Ospreys, 22)

Munster: (feel free to add, but as far as I'm aware...)

Keith Earls (B&I Lion, 21),
Thomas O'Leary (B&I Lion, 26),
Barry Murphy (getting game time, yet to prove himself, 27),
Donnacha Ryan (game time, yet to prove, 25),
Denis Fogarty (had some good game, 26)...
Andrew Burke (OH with some ML game time this year and U20 OH, 19)
Conor Murray (SH in ML squads this year and U20 SH, 20)
Dave Foley (A team regular and on ML panel, 20)
Eoghan Grace (former U20 captain, 21)
Peter O'Mahony (U20 captain & no.8, 19)
Tommy O'Donnell (will make breakthrough in backrow this year, 22)
Evan Ryan (Cork Con regular and full contract this year, 22)
Tom Gleeson (next centre to make brekthrough, 23)
Billy Holland (Cork Con captain, ML regular and mammoth v AB's, 23)
Dave Ryan (prop played in AB game and a no of ML games, 21)
Ian Nagle (U20 squad lock and pro contract signed, 20)
Darragh Hurley (prop with previous games in HEC - injured last year but Munster's version of Cian Healy, 22)
Duncan Williams (A team/Cork Con SH and ML game time last year, 23)
Mark Melbourne (ML squad player past 2 years, 24)
Ciaran O'Boyle (number of good games on wing in ML this year, 24)
Denis Hurley (Lots of HEC experience and Irish A caps, 24)
Jeremy Manning (3rd choice OH, 24)

Felix Jones (NABBED )

Have a look at the above and tell me Munster really have nothing coming through. All these players are actually nearer ML teams than most of Leinster's younger players. In fact, all besides Nagle, Grace and O'Mahony have played some ML gametime...and these are probably 3 best prospects.

Yes Leinster have more prospects but I strongly believe the likelihood of the Munster lads in general making the grade is probably higher...perhaps it is because of there being lower numbers but I wouldn't write off Munster's academy.

You omitted McKinley and Keating from Leinster academy lads too. Ruddocks were also quite a coup. Think it's worth noting the future of Irish rugby is looking pretty strong.

Stev_o · 16-06-2009 07:02PM

Congratulations guys for causing a thread to descend into ANOTHER Leinster vs Munster shit face. Can we not be happy that our provincial academies are producing quality players as it is.

GymJim · 16-06-2009 07:10PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Congratulations guys for causing a thread to descend into ANOTHER Leinster vs Munster shit face. Can we not be happy that our provincial academies are producing quality players as it is.

That's what I just said!

GymJim wrote: »

Think it's worth noting the future of Irish rugby is looking pretty strong.

I accepted Leinster academy is producing fine players but just pointing out Munster's also is (as with Ulster...Cave/Whitten/Henry/Trimble/McCrea/Caldwell/NOC).

thomond2006 · 16-06-2009 07:30PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Congratulations guys for causing a thread to descend into ANOTHER Leinster vs Munster shit face. Can we not be happy that our provincial academies are producing quality players as it is.

Stevo for modship!

Stev_o · 16-06-2009 07:32PM

Also forgot and i guess alot of other people would of forgotten that the Cletic Anglo cup or whatever it is will provide more exposure for top players playing in the AIL against teams from Scotland England and Wales.

Amazotheamazing · 16-06-2009 08:56PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

*sigh*

Well, they do bring them through. Regular young players in the Leinster over last couple of seasons and / or will be next year...might as well put together a profile of them, cause it really is ridiculos...and then let no more be said!!

Cian Healy* (most promising prop in Ireland, lots of game time, 21)
Luke Fitzgerald (B&I Lion, 21)
Jamie Heaslip (B&I Lion, 25)
Devin Toner* (one of the most promising 2nd rows in Ireland, lots of game time, 23)
Kevin McLaughlin (may be his break through year..mark my words..class player, reason Ronan let go, 24)
Johno Sexton* (Number 2 out-half in Ireland, will be surpries if not first choice by world cup, 23)
Ian Keatley (one of the most promising 10's in Ireland, first choice at Connacht, Leinster could use him back, 22)
Sean O'Brien* (Most promising flanker in the country imo, loads of game time, outstanding player, 22)
Fionn Carr* (first teamer at Connacht, top try scorer in ML, 23)
Felix Jones* (gone to fill gaps at Munster, will probably be a first teamer at FB, 21)
Rob Kearney (B&I Lion, 23)
Eoin O'Malley (hope it's his break through season, fine versatile player, already in full squad, deffinitley a big one for the future, 20)
Paul O'Donohoe (No doubt future Irish Scrummie, man of the match AIL final, bags of talent, 2nd choice at Leinster, 21)
Fergus McFadden* (top class centre, finisher & goal kicker, getting game time, 23)
Ciallian Willis (got some game time for Ulster, didn't make the impact expected yet, 24)
Niall Ronan* (on the brink of first team at Munster, 2nd or 3rd top try scorer last season iirc, 27)
Conor McInerney (Good versatile player up front, gone to Ospreys, 22)

* Denotes good chance of getting capped in near future from the uncapped players.

All of the above are either getting first choice rugby regularly or are right on the brink but have gotten game time and are worth a mention. The below are Leinster academy players who have excelled at under age level and who I would expect to have big futures:

Jamie Hagan (Prop, very strong in scrum, last played v Queensland reds, 22)
Royce Burke Flynn (went to S.A. with Ollie to train, massive man, big future, 22)
Jason Harris Wright (Promising Hooker, hoping to see progress to senior squad soon, 21)
Dave Kearney (better than his B&I Lion brother at under-age level, 20)
Shane Monahan (lots of traffic ahead of him, but superb big player, Shane Horgan mould with bags more pace, 22)
Kyle Tonnetti (again, lots of traffic ahead of him, but outstanding in AIL, may well be senior squad for next season, lots of younf talent in Leinster backs though, 22)

Good list, most of those guys will finish next year still playing AIL, infact, a worrying amount will be playing in Division two of the AIL. Hence, imo, a good number of them will have to leave. Wtf is Tonnetti for example, going to learn playing AIL Division two with UCD. David Kearney is another good example, how is he going to get his game at fullback for Leinster? Or Madigan etc.

danthefan · 16-06-2009 08:59PM

Journee Careful Ramp wrote: »

Connacht's backline for next year could have been

15-Duffy
14-Carr
13-McFaden
12-O'Malley
11-Jones
10-Keatley
9-O'Donogue

That is how we should be doing it.

Eh, no. POD and McFadden are going to be getting gametime for Leinster next season. Jones if he's any good at all could shift Dowling. O'Malley would have got gametime at Leinster this season if it weren't for injury.

AIL players who should move province?

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