Next Generation Broadband Forum

damien · 27-09-2008 1:18am

I'm going. I didn't get invited to ComReg's wankfest on Wednesday though. I asked Ryan's people to sit me next to ComReg so they can explain where my invite went to. Liveblogging is also permitted at the event, should people want to. Dublin Castle has wifi and not just via insecure eircom modems. No 3g signal from 3 though.

Wcool · 27-09-2008 1:44am

Well great Damien, any take on what your position will be in the discussion?

Lot's of possible futures spring to mind:

- the government invests, builds and exploits a national fiber network, all ISP's can buy bandwidth from it.

- the government facilitates an industry body that jointly put down a nation wide fiber

- the goverment tenders a contract that enables a company to do business ultra cheap in some way but enforces that the whole country is serviced. (Eircom Plus

)

- the government gives ComReg a LOT more power and let them sort it out

- the government does nothing, but does not favour Eircom at all

- Eircom is stripped from it's A status somehow

- Hybrid models: nationalised fiber up to all parts of Ireland, but the last mile is serviced by wireless (my take)

- etc, please add if you have more ideas!

Sponge Bob · 27-09-2008 11:24am

Wcool wrote: »

- Hybrid models: nationalised fiber up to all parts of Ireland, but the last mile is serviced by wireless (my take)

Mine too. A Nat Fibre Asset within 50km of everyone in phase1 and 30km in phase2 then commercial wireless . But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.

Fibre any closer is

a) very very expensive although the UK is muttering about it , eg ftth fttc is to the door or the end of the road
b) we have the wireless operators in most parts of Ireland by now who can pick up on this cheap large scale bandwidth .

BUT Bord Gáis have not even had a website for 3 years now , look at it Here .

Look at the gas map now , were there usable fibre in the ducts it would be great . It would be NGN too.

But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.

bk · 27-09-2008 11:47am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Mine too. A Nat Fibre Asset within 50km of everyone in phase1 and 30km in phase2 then commercial wireless . But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.

We need fibre within 1 - 2km of most people (at least in the cities and most towns), with carrier neutral curb side boxes (FTTC) and effective LLU, allowing Eircom and other LLU operators to make use of the curb side boxes to supply VDSL2 (or DOCSIS 3) over existing phone cables and TV coax to most people.

Anything less and we will continue to fall behind the rest of the developed world.

Wireless is an ineffective solution that should only be used in certain rural areas to fill in the gaps with widely dispersed homes.

I know this will cost a lot of money and there is no chance of it happening now, but it is what needs to happen.

BTW I hope to be attending also.

anthony4335 · 27-09-2008 11:58am

And to any one who is going maybe they can ask ,Mr Ryan, Eircom, and Comreg how and why are Eircom been allowed to use carrier lines when connecting up a house knowing that this will eliminate this house from ever getting broadband. As is the case with my house that is less than 4 years old, and now appears to be on a carrier line. Although is the newest house on the road.

LKLad · 27-09-2008 3:13pm

I think some of the language used here diminishes/eliminates the credibilty of the points being made and those making them.

The idea that the ESB/Bord Gais will do anything in the telecoms space that requires any capital investment is a non runner - maybe back in 2000 when the business case supported such investment but not now. The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

NGN will not make it to the top table in a recessionary environment - traditional economy, health and education spending will dominate.

No fixed/mobile/cable operator will invest significantly in capital projects outside the urban centers over the next 3 years.

Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.

lmimmfn · 27-09-2008 3:39pm

LKLad wrote: »

Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.

Completely disagree, in recessionary times its much much better to invest in infrastructure because its the cheapest time to do it and also infrastructure projects can kickstart the economy

Sponge Bob · 27-09-2008 6:18pm

LKLad wrote: »

The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

The €500m + is to be taken off them in the budget. Therefore they can do nothing with it.

Had they a plan to deploy NGN more widely I would reduce the special dividend by the capital cost of this plan.

They have no such plan and nor does their sole shareholder, E Ryan. Ryan will make sure the dividend goes through as planned .

BK. in urban areas with HIGH population density you are correct in saying c.1km but the regulator must force sub loop unbundling as well .

Wcool · 27-09-2008 7:13pm

LKLad wrote: »

I think some of the language used here diminishes/eliminates the credibilty of the points being made and those making them.

The idea that the ESB/Bord Gais will do anything in the telecoms space that requires any capital investment is a non runner - maybe back in 2000 when the business case supported such investment but not now. The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

NGN will not make it to the top table in a recessionary environment - traditional economy, health and education spending will dominate.

No fixed/mobile/cable operator will invest significantly in capital projects outside the urban centers over the next 3 years.

Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.

Isn't it exactly this (market conditions, economy) why the government is such an important factor. The problem is that major player Eircom has no money and no will to invest and the other companies are too small and/or have no cheap/fair base to invest on.

Reason more for the government to step in and actively play a part.
Even if the government does not put money on the table, at least they could change certain laws (like making Comreg more powerful, or forcing access to exchanges). They are so much more important than when broadband started in this country (only 3-4 years ago)

In the case above: the gov could put in place a law which makes it possible to use land owned by Irish Rail, ESB and Board Gais by other parties for broadband?

Cabaal · 27-09-2008 8:08pm

threasd stuck

Sponge Bob · 27-09-2008 8:54pm

Cabaal wrote: »

thread stuck

I have nothing further to add unless Eamon Ryan comes back in here and confirms that some directions to ESB / Bord Gáis are in order and what they are .

This consultation is a low farce unless he indicates their part of the envelope .

Eamon Ryan is the 100% shareholder in ESB and Bord Gáis who also own the bulk of the states existing long range NGN assets . Eamon Ryan OWNS the only substantial NGN in the state .

The MANs are much of the rest of it but rely on the others for interconnectivity .

Of further note there is Heanet which is very substantial albeit not under Eamons control and CIE .

Firetrap · 27-09-2008 9:25pm

All I want to say is that I hope that mobile internet (as in what's supplied by Vodafone/O2/3) isn't cited as a way to get broadband to rural areas. I've used 3's mobile internet which was as awful as the sticky says) and O2's better version of same but neither are proper broadband.

Mobile internet shouldn't be included in figures for broadband. It distorts the statistics.

Sponge Bob · 28-09-2008 12:19am

Firetrap wrote: »

Mobile internet shouldn't be included in figures for broadband. It distorts the statistics.

Eamon GLEEFULLY includes 3g dialup substitute subscriptions in all of his announcements on Broadband figures.

Only in Ireland would a failure metric like 3G subscription growth be spun as a success metric by a minister of Communications. Mind you Dempsey was as bad before him.

Fighting Irish · 28-09-2008 12:44am

strongr wrote: »

Forget your nextgen how about giving broadband to us people who cant get it first.

Ye sure build a big tescos out there as well :pac:

lmimmfn · 28-09-2008 3:50am

well much as this state is in crap as regards BB at the moment whats the point moaning when the point of it( this thread ) is the BB we want/need and how our money should be spend on achieving it

read this - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Minister+Ryan+publishes+Government+plan+for+next+generation+broadband.htm

and the consultation paper and give your views on it
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Communications/Regulation+and+Postal+Division/Public+Consultations/

Yes we have our own individual crap circumstances( and im one of those burnt also,i.e. moving house to get decent BB ) but educated discussion on whats on offer would be far more productive

barnicles · 28-09-2008 11:29am

Just as a matter of interest,

How big is your connection that your'e posting with,Eamon???:)

watty · 28-09-2008 12:12pm

(I can't resist cross posting this..)

Everyone should have to quote:
Off peak average (3am .. 5am)
Office hours average (9am .. 11am)
Peak Time home Average (7pm .. 9pm)

Specs quoted should be (for each of these times)

Upload speed
Download speed
Average latency and % Latency Jitter average
% Packet loss Upload
% Packet loss Download
Type of IP (Static, Dynamic, Shared)
Explicit Fair Use Policies, no "hidden" caps should be allowed. All caps and throttle schemes should be explicit and transparent. Caps should be rolling 30 days and separate for upload and download.

It should be explicit if self hosting at all or specific services are not allowed (Torrents, Video Stream(VLC, Media Encoder, Orb, Slingbox & etc), Web, FTP, VPN, POP, SMTP, IMAP ) "servers", not clients. Or even VOIP (SIP, Skype etc which is also a kind of self hosting/Service).

Security:
MS dangerous ports should be blocked (137 etc) but NO other port blocking, unless totally obvious as part of "Fair Use Policy".

Anti-Spam Engine:
SMTP port (in or out) by default should only work with the ISP's own server (which should demand user name & password), but be unblocked to Internet by request from user.

Packages should be rated as
Casual Browser / Email: Can use shared IP and almost all port blocking. No self hosting. SMTP & MS port limitations as above. Explicit Traffic cap.

Power User/Home Office/Small Business: Never a shared IP, but can be Dynamic IP. Only MS dangerous ports blocked by default. May have self hosting limitations in FUP. SMTP limitation as above. May have traffic cap.

Corporate: No ports at all blocked by default, not even the dangerous MS port. No Fair use policy. No Traffic Cap. Static IP. No self hosting limitations. No SMTP limitation.

It shouldn't be allowed to be called Broadband unless Latency < 70ms, Upload > 250kbps and Download > 600kbps and 100% ability to have a connection for all these at all 3 times periods.
(Thus EDGE/HSDPA/3G fails on Latency and Connectivity, Satellite fails on Latency).

(Latency and speed all measured to same agreed Irish server such as heanet as it can be much worse to arbitrary UK, US or Irish servers even for a very good connection)

I'd sort all this out and true Universal Broadband Access before NGN.

I'd use term Midband for less than Broadband
(Satellite, HSDPA, Ripwave etc), but more than Dialup/ISDN, i.e. better than 128k up and down at peak times. 3G/HSDPA services still might not qualify as Midband in some cases unless at least EDGE performance and 100% always connect (at same OK signal location) is possible.

Most of the Mobile services are just high speed Dialup. It's not really always on nor even if signal is good can they ensure you always connect.

godskitchen · 28-09-2008 5:49pm

watty wrote: »

(I can't resist cross posting this..)

Everyone should have to quote:
Off peak average (3am .. 5am)
Office hours average (9am .. 11am)
Peak Time home Average (7pm .. 9pm)

Specs quoted should be (for each of these times)
Upload speed

Download speed

Average latency and % Latency Jitter average

% Packet loss Upload

% Packet loss Download

Type of IP (Static, Dynamic, Shared)

Explicit Fair Use Policies, no "hidden" caps should be allowed. All caps and throttle schemes should be explicit and transparent. Caps should be rolling 30 days and separate for upload and download.

It should be explicit if self hosting at all or specific services are not allowed (Torrents, Video Stream(VLC, Media Encoder, Orb, Slingbox & etc), Web, FTP, VPN, POP, SMTP, IMAP ) "servers", not clients. Or even VOIP (SIP, Skype etc which is also a kind of self hosting/Service).

Security:
MS dangerous ports should be blocked (137 etc) but NO other port blocking, unless totally obvious as part of "Fair Use Policy".

Anti-Spam Engine:
SMTP port (in or out) by default should only work with the ISP's own server (which should demand user name & password), but be unblocked to Internet by request from user.

Packages should be rated as
Casual Browser / Email: Can use shared IP and almost all port blocking. No self hosting. SMTP & MS port limitations as above. Explicit Traffic cap.

Power User/Home Office/Small Business: Never a shared IP, but can be Dynamic IP. Only MS dangerous ports blocked by default. May have self hosting limitations in FUP. SMTP limitation as above. May have traffic cap.

Corporate: No ports at all blocked by default, not even the dangerous MS port. No Fair use policy. No Traffic Cap. Static IP. No self hosting limitations. No SMTP limitation.

It shouldn't be allowed to be called Broadband unless Latency < 70ms, Upload > 250kbps and Download > 600kbps and 100% ability to have a connection for all these at all 3 times periods.
(Thus EDGE/HSDPA/3G fails on Latency and Connectivity, Satellite fails on Latency).

(Latency and speed all measured to same agreed Irish server such as heanet as it can be much worse to arbitrary UK, US or Irish servers even for a very good connection)

I'd sort all this out and true Universal Broadband Access before NGN.

I'd use term Midband for less than Broadband
(Satellite, HSDPA, Ripwave etc), but more than Dialup/ISDN, i.e. better than 128k up and down at peak times. 3G/HSDPA services still might not qualify as Midband in some cases unless at least EDGE performance and 100% always connect (at same OK signal location) is possible.

Most of the Mobile services are just high speed Dialup. It's not really always on nor even if signal is good can they ensure you always connect.

Best plan I have seen, simple, easy for the public to understand (in the most part). I cant for the life of me think why they would not go down this clear road.

I am guessing they wont want to rule out 3G or Sat as broadband as it will bring the numbers down (potential or real).

Its clear to me that you can go the way listed above and start to build an infrastructure that is use able OR you can hide behind 3G and stick your head in the sand and block your ears when people tell you they cant preform basic tasks.

What is outlined above is honest, its clear and to the point. If implemented correctly it will force ISP's in this country to up their game, and it will be something Ireland can truely lead Europe on.

Have some balls and make this happen.

Wcool · 28-09-2008 6:03pm

While Watty's suggestion are excellent, they only address advertising and statistics, not how we improve the infrastructure. Personally, I see that as more important to discuss though I would welcome an overall change in the naming of what is Broadband.

After all naming and advertising broadband as it should be does not make it faster/cheaper.

watty · 28-09-2008 10:58pm

Agreed we need to improve things. But unless there are clear metrics/definitions, that by law must presented identically in the same tabular fashion for each product of each ISP we can't progress to defining NGN and next gen BB performances.

It creates a level playing field and enables people to see the real quality or lack of it of offerings. In reality a low latency (<40ms) 512k is far better for web browsing, gaming or VOIP than an "up to" 7.6Mbps 120ms HSDPA. For torrent or video streaming users a high or no cap symmetrical low packet loss offering at 3Mbps is much better than a throttled 20Mbps connection or "up to" 7.2Mbps "Mobile" product.

Different people need different kinds of BB products. At the moment you have to be an Industry expert to know what you are buying.

Also if we only call true BB products, Broadband, then the real scope of the pit we need to climb out of is seen. If anything that has a flat rate cost and is faster than 56k is called Broadband irrespective of what it really is, then the magnitude of what we have to achieve is greatly under-estimated.

Without the clear rules I outline someone could launch a new product next week and call it NGN..

damien · 28-09-2008 11:07pm

Dictating packages is retarded. Dictating them to that level of detail is dangerous.

Let the market decide on packages not any government. We do not want the Government dictating ports and ANY type of filtering whether it's good or bad.

The Government should stay the hell away from imposing such things. Remember that if you allow the Government to dictate what ports should be blocked by default they can just as easily block every port. If Dick Doyle and the skyisfalling squad see that ISPs are forced to block ports then they'll get their way. Kiss goodbye to bittorrent, P2P, VoIP and anything else fun.

Always on, fully open high-speed broadband is the endgame.

Wcool · 29-09-2008 12:39am

Somehow I don't see the government invest billions to create a fiber network, I really wish they would. Please Eamon, consider it, it's more important than a Luas or a leaking tunnel...

Another option would be to make it easy to lay down fiber but enforce every company can use it cheaply and without going through hoops.

It's not ideal but better then nothing.

PogMoThoin · 29-09-2008 8:53am

We need a proper regulator that people can make complaints to, not just get fobbed off by gutless Comreg.

Cabaal · 29-09-2008 9:08am

PogMoThoin wrote: »

We need a proper regulator that people can make complaints to, not just get fobbed off by gutless Comreg.

I'd like to see COMREG model itself on OFCOM in the UK, while OFCOM don't take complaints on behalf of consumers they do monitor complaint numbers and forward complaints to ISP's and ask ISP's why they have no responded.

The most important thing is OFCOM has actual power to fine ISP's and has done so over the years and isn't gutless like COMREG when it comes to dealing with the big boys (BT/Eircom)

watty · 29-09-2008 12:26pm

damien.m wrote: »

Dictating packages is retarded. Dictating them to that level of detail is dangerous.

Always on, fully open high-speed broadband is the endgame.

I'm not at all suggesting Goverment dictate packages or ports etc..

I'm suggesting without toothfull consumer transparency and openess about what is sold that it's impossible today for the average consumer to know if it suits his needs, if it's really always on and if it is even broadband.

I should have done two separate posts...
1) The specs that should be quoted by measuring the same way on any arbitrary packages. Quoting all these specs in the same way should be mandatory.

2) Typical examples of what different user groups (not imposed packages) might need.

I agree ISPs should be free to offer what ever they like. But it should be documented in the same way for every package and ISP. so that people can compare, know if it is suitable etc...

Can you think of any reason why people shouldn't know the speed, latency, jitter, packet loss, ability to connect, throttling, port blocking & etc in a transparent way for off peak, office and home peak times?

watty · 29-09-2008 12:28pm

I'd not like an Ofcom style outfit. Aspects of Ofcom/UK are FAR to cosy to Industry and care little about consumers (Mobile phone charges, Digital Dividend, Sky, Spectrum trading etc).

Aspects of Comreg are far better than Ofcom.

Firetrap · 29-09-2008 1:28pm

I'd like to see something with more teeth than Comreg though. Back in the days when I was a 3 "Broadband" customer, I complained to them about their appalling product. I got a letter straight back explaining that they didn't regulate this. We need someone to complain to and to do something about substandard products on the market.

There also needs to be standards for what's being installed. I know someone who got in a new phone line about a year ago and they got a split line. Eircom's not obliged to provide land lines that are suitable for broadband, just voice. That needs to change.

Cabaal · 29-09-2008 1:48pm

watty wrote: »

I'd not like an Ofcom style outfit. Aspects of Ofcom/UK are FAR to cosy to Industry and care little about consumers (Mobile phone charges, Digital Dividend, Sky, Spectrum trading etc).

Aspects of Comreg are far better than Ofcom.

So a mass-up of the two is what we need, the powers of OFCOM and maybe the sense of comreg?

fergalfrog · 29-09-2008 3:38pm

For people who stumble across these pages in their search for when broadband might be enabled in their area, you may want to look at:

http://www.williamstownoffline.com

This is a campaign by one small community to get broadband to their area but may be helpful to others looking to run similar campaigns. (We too received an invite to tomorrow's forum). In relation to NGN to view where Eircom are positioned on this go to:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OJL3QR3zFjE

watty · 29-09-2008 3:38pm

Vivianne Redding in charge + best bits of FCC, Comreg and Ofcom.

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