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Golf mind games

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  • Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    ...On the next hole if I left a 15ft putt a few inches away I'd be quickly after the ball and, (as if in strokeplay and so people watching can hear) might say "I'll finish if you don't mind" before he can either give it or leave enough silence to let me know he's not giving it. Chances are, especially with a watching crowd, he'll interupt with something like "oh no, that's good".
    I would say nothing, and if you holed out I would politely ask you to replace your ball, hole out myself, and then ask you to re-take the putt without penalty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Obni wrote: »
    I would say nothing, and if you holed out I would politely ask you to replace your ball, hole out myself, and then ask you to re-take the putt without penalty.

    I don't know how Faldo overlooked Clarke and Obni


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭The Rooster


    Two questions:
    Obni wrote: »
    I would say nothing, and if you holed out I would politely ask you to replace your ball, hole out myself, and then ask you to re-take the putt without penalty.

    1. Is that correct? In matchplay can you not tap-in your second (or third!) putt if your opponent is outside you and hasnt given you permission?

    2. I was playing a friendly fourball matchplay yesterday and on a particular par 5 me and my partner were safely on the fairway but both opponents found trouble. One of them couldnt find his first tee-shot that went into the trees so headed back to play the provisional drive he'd hit (found the edge of the fairway, but was quite short). I ambled back to be behind the ball when he was hitting (his 4th shot now), but I left my trolley/bag at the edge of the trees and as he was over the ball I noticed it was a great opportunity for him to hit my trolley and thus win the hole. Am I right in saying that if he hit my trolley he'd win the hole? Would that be cheating or unethical or just using the rules to your best advantage?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭madds


    Golferx wrote: »
    As a European Team supporter, Seve's conduct in Matchplay was embarrassing. Anyone remember Seve's last appearance as player, against Tom Lehmann? His conduct was deplorable.

    His antics as manager were not much better. The team won in spite of him, not because of him.

    I agree that Seve's actions and behaviour in matchplay (and some would say strokeplay) events was not good enough and downright embarrassing.

    However, the example I used was in reply to your statement that mind games happen off the course in the Ryder Cup. This is simply not true.

    Have to agree with SS. This is a great "debate", but I think I may have to resort to some mind games in order to win it! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    madds wrote: »
    This is a great "debate", but I think I may have to resort to some mind games in order to win it! :D

    That says alot about you as a person

    ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    madds wrote: »
    mind games happen off the course in the Ryder Cup. This is simply not true.

    You don't think they do? I'd be fairly certain it happens particularly when it comes to the two respective captains picking their teams for each day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Graeme1982 wrote: »
    You don't think they do? I'd be fairly certain it happens particularly when it comes to the two respective captains picking their teams for each day.

    He meant to say it's not true that they only happen off the course.

    I'm pretty sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭madds


    Graeme1982 wrote: »
    You don't think they do? I'd be fairly certain it happens particularly when it comes to the two respective captains picking their teams for each day.

    I agree entirely. I was responding to this comment from one of the earlier posters which I understood to mean that the poster felt that mind games only happen off the course and not on it in the RC.
    Mind games in the ryder cup happen off the course. In game build up and media interviews.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    Obni wrote: »
    I would say nothing, and if you holed out I would politely ask you to replace your ball, hole out myself, and then ask you to re-take the putt without penalty.

    See this basically serves no purpose, except to piss the person off and make them more determined to beat you.
    As highlighted earlier, the reason it's counterproductive is that your giving him plenty of practice at holing out. So that when a really important putt comes around he's comfortable on the greens, and from that distance. And by asking him to take it out, wait, and then put it in again, you're giving twice as much practice.


    Anyway, moving on, I was thinking last mind about Derren Brown, and how he plays mind tricks, by slipping in words into sentences without people noticing. I wonder would this work in golf?
    'Man, I had a lovely lamb SHANK, last night.'
    'Did you see Damien DUFF playing yesterday?'
    'My son broke the kettle yesterday. I could have CHOKED him.'
    Hmmm...my next match could be interesting!!!:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    madds wrote: »
    I agree entirely. I was responding to this comment from one of the earlier posters which I understood to mean that the poster felt that mind games only happen off the course and not on it in the RC.

    I see, apologies Madds. I wasn't too sure what you meant.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    Did you see Damien DUFF playing yesterday?

    Your opponent would totally dumbfounded by that one... the only playing he gets to do is with himself on the treatment table it seems!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Golferx


    Two questions:



    1. Is that correct? In matchplay can you not tap-in your second (or third!) putt if your opponent is outside you and hasnt given you permission?

    2. I was playing a friendly fourball matchplay yesterday and on a particular par 5 me and my partner were safely on the fairway but both opponents found trouble. One of them couldnt find his first tee-shot that went into the trees so headed back to play the provisional drive he'd hit (found the edge of the fairway, but was quite short). I ambled back to be behind the ball when he was hitting (his 4th shot now), but I left my trolley/bag at the edge of the trees and as he was over the ball I noticed it was a great opportunity for him to hit my trolley and thus win the hole. Am I right in saying that if he hit my trolley he'd win the hole? Would that be cheating or unethical or just using the rules to your best advantage?

    1.
    Rule 10 - Order of Play
    10-1 Match play

    a.When Starting Play of Hole
    The side that has the honour at the first teeing ground is determined by the order of the draw. In the absence of a draw, the honour should be decided by lot.
    The side that wins a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. If a hole has been halved, the side that had the honour at the previous teeing ground retains it.
    b. During Play of Hole
    After both players have started play of the hole, the ball farther from the hole is played first. If the balls are equidistant from the hole or their positions relative to the hole are not determinable, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot.
    Exception: Rule 30-3b (best-ball and four-ball match play).
    Note: When it becomes known that the original ball is not to be played as it lies and the player is required to play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played(see Rule 20-5), the order of play is determined by the spot from which the previous stroke was made. When a ball may be played from a spot other than where the previous stroke was made, the order of play is determined by the position where the original ball came to rest.
    c. Playing Out of Turn
    If a player plays when his opponent should have played, there is no penalty, but the opponent may immediately require the player to cancel the stroke so made and, in correct order, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).


    2.
    Rule 19-3 Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped
    By opponent, caddie, or equipment, in match-play

    If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, there is no penalty. The player may, before another stroke is made by either side, cancel the stroke and play a ball, without penalty, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (Rule 20-5) or he may play the ball as it lies. However, if the player elects not to cancel the stroke and the ball has come to rest in or on the opponent’s or his caddie’s clothes or equipment, the ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the article, but not nearer the hole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    I don't know how Faldo overlooked Clarke and Obni
    Touché! :D
    See this basically serves no purpose...
    Well, Shrieking Sheet was making the point that you can often deal with people too miserable to give short putts, by asking them out straight if a short putt is 'good'. This puts pressure on them to say yes(due to normal standards of social interaction and politeness), rather than letting them simply not give the short putt. You make them actively have to deny you the short putt.
    I was merely pointing out that hard-hearted bastards like myself wouldn't necessarily be the least bit bothered by that tactic and by flat out denying the putt it I might even piss the guy off more.

    Don't get me wrong. If I'm playing matchplay and my opponent is putting well and has a 2ft flattish putt for a half, I'll give it.

    Anyway, I think in many sports if you can get your opponent to really, really want to beat you, it tends to have a negative effect on their game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Obni wrote: »
    Well, Shrieking Sheet was making the point that you can often deal with people too miserable to give short putts, by asking them out straight if a short putt is 'good'.

    No I didn't at all!

    I said I'd walk quickly after the ball saying "I'll finish out if you don't mind" and duely knock the ball in. Essentially acting as if you didnt expect a gimme and showing your not affected by having to hole anything out.

    I just added that some guys, especially in front of a gathered crowd in a club match might give you the putt as you walk but if they don't it makes no odds.

    My aim is to show that I'm indifferent, not to get the putt given.


    And I'd agree that getting people to really want to beat you would negatively affect them, making them try too hard, but how you get someone to want to beat you so much... that's not really my own personal style!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    No I didn't at all!

    I said I'd walk quickly after the ball saying "I'll finish out if you don't mind" and duely knock the ball in. Essentially acting as if you didnt expect a gimme and showing your not affected by having to hole anything out.

    I just added that some guys, especially in front of a gathered crowd in a club match might give you the putt as you walk but if they don't it makes no odds.

    My aim is to show that I'm indifferent, not to get the putt given.

    To be honest, if you did that to me i'd think that you were just trying to get me to say 'that's good' or find out whether i was going to give you it or not.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    Some of the people who believe in mind games the most here often also recommend elsewhere to read 'golf is not a game of perfect' by rotella.
    I picked this up this weekend and am interested to see his chapter on competitors...
    The first opponent is the game itself... The second is the golfer himself.. Only after those two foes have been confronted do the other people on the course come into the picture.

    ... the best golfers ... primary concern is performing as well as they can is performing as well as they can... If they do that and lose, they shrug and go on.

    Gamesmanship experts hurt themselves.... if they are amateurs, they risk forgoing one of the great joys of the game, friendship with fellow players.

    Interesting thoughts that go with my attitude anyway. I don't mind the other guy playing well, I want to play better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Licksy wrote: »
    Some of the people who believe in mind games the most here often also recommend elsewhere to read 'golf is not a game of perfect' by rotella.
    I picked this up this weekend and am interested to see his chapter on competitors...

    The first opponent is the game itself... The second is the golfer himself.. Only after those two foes have been confronted do the other people on the course come into the picture.

    ... the best golfers ... primary concern is performing as well as they can is performing as well as they can... If they do that and lose, they shrug and go on.

    Gamesmanship experts hurt themselves.... if they are amateurs, they risk forgoing one of the great joys of the game, friendship with fellow players.

    Interesting thoughts that go with my attitude anyway. I don't mind the other guy playing well, I want to play better.

    Good post but there are several different crossed wires here. Gamesmanship could mean anything here, and most likely means the coughing and smart-talking that everyone of us here would disagree with.

    I should have made this point earlier which may have made me seem less like an immoral b*stard, but there's nothing I'd do (or have posted here about) that would make it hard for me to look the guy in the eye after the match and have a drink with him. I see having a drink with your opponent after a match as an important piece of ettiquette, and to do anything on the course that I couldn't stand over in the post-round conversaion, well, I just wouldn't.

    And I wouldn't be able to look a guy in the eye having made him hole-out from 8 inches a few times, let alone having made him replace the damn ball Obni! ;)

    Essentially what I mean is, I haven't been, and would never argue for the kind of gamesmanship that would create personal friction between myself and another player. You guys lumping my own approach to matchplay in with this kind of gamesmanship isn't fair, I don't think.

    I've never had an issue with any matchplay opponent. And I've played a lot of matchplay.

    Licksy, totally agree with the implication that focusing on anything other than your own game is more likely to distract you yourself. But with a bit of experience (I played Barton Cup and Junior Cup age 16) you can develop a flair and a flow for matchplay.

    The friendship in golf is a very important point too. Like, if what I've been saying is as bad as some have made it out, I'd have a horrible reputation in my home club. Thankfully, I don't. And I take care that I don't.

    But Licksy, I would never go so far as to encourage an opponent, at least not until the match was all but over when I might say something like "you've been so unlucky all day, on any other day it'd be a tight match". Sport, for me, is going at it hammer-and-tongs, within the rules, until the final whistle blows. You may say that you didnt feel good beating a guy who wasnt playing well, but if it was me you were playing against, it would be a hollow victory to beat someone who encouraged me in the course of the match.

    Worse still in an interclub match, if I lost having been ahead and offered words of encouragement to an opponent, I'd be letting down a whole squad of players who would otherwise be playing the next round.

    In general, I agree with you on most of your points throughout the thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭madds


    Played a foursomes semi-final in the club this afternoon and there was an incident which once it happened, I said to myself "That's one for the mind games thread"....how sad is that? :D

    We were giving 6 shots away to our opponents and they had us under the cosh as the full greens were closed which took our advantage away. Instead of hitting long irons/woods into the first few holes these guys were hitting 7/8 irons, and then it was lottery when we got to the temp greens which were very hairy, bumpy, and slow.

    Playing the par 4 6th we were 2 down, they were pin high in two and they had a shot. Somehow we managed to half that hole, and then won the next with a par. So having looked like going 3 down after six, we were 1 down after eight holes.

    I drove on the 9th and pushed it slightly right, leaving us slightly blocked out by trees for our 2nd. Our opponents, who had a shot on this hole too, drive was straighter but caught a bunker which left them about 150 yards to the green. Our balls were 50 yards apart, and a grassy bank about 5 feet high separated us, so we could see their heads and they could see us. Whilst my partner and I were deciding where to position our next shot, our opponents played from the bunker.

    In an effort to see where they finished I started walking towards the "grassy knoll", at which point one of them gave me the thumbs up and pointed up the fairway as if to say "we're grand thanks". I continued walking towards them as I wanted to see exactly what they had left to the green, as this would influence our next shot. Staring up the fairway I couldn't see their ball, and then looked back at the guy who had given me the thumbs up and he was standing there with a content smile on his face. I was convinced they had hit the ball somewhere in the vicinity of the green....

    ...until I noticed a little white speck behind his left heel. It was their ball. Yer man had only tried to bluff me into thinking they had hit a good shot up the middle in the hope that we took on a braver shot and possibly got into trouble.

    Had a little giggle to myself and told my partner what had just happened. He hit a wedge over the trees into space leaving me 80 yards to the temp green into the wind. A 3/4 PW to 8 feet and my partner slotted the putt to put us level.

    We won the next five holes on the trot, then halved 14 to win 5&4. To be honest, that bluff incident didn't make me angry....it just made me more determined to beat them.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    Sweet :)
    You have to hand it to him for trying it on though ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    Licksy wrote: »
    Sweet :)
    You have to hand it to him for trying it on though ;)

    It was a stupid thing to try though! Funny story though!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Swinging Looney


    I was bored waiting for a flight the other day and picked up Golf World which has a "Ryder Cup Issue" out at the moment.

    There is a whole section about how to play matchplay with comments from various professionals. It was as if they have been reading this thread and thought they should write an article about it!

    Faldo says: "Always play hard but fair. I've heard people say they can get into their opponents heads by conceding longish putts for the first few holes, and then suddenly - out of the blue - they get them to make a short one. That's baloney. Don't concede a putt unless you are sure they're going to make. If you think a guy might miss one early, force him to make it. And don't expect to be given any gimme putts."

    Torrance says: "Don't use gamesmanship. I hate that word. You should just play the game. Golf is a gentlemans game. If opponents ever say things to try and wind you up, the hairs on the back of your neck might stand up but you've got to say to yourself: 'He's trying it on; who the hell does he think he is?' You should use it to spur you on."

    And perhaps the best quote of all! Gary Player in his usual gentle manner: "'Forget Gamesmanship' It's only the sissy who complains about gamesmanship. If I'm playing you and I let you affect me then I'm a sissy. There is nothing you could say or do that would put me off my game because I'm a professional. If you tell me the greens are slow or the sand is wet and I listen to it then I'm a sissy. People tried it all the time - You're swinging fast', that sort of stuff - but are you a man or a mouse? Only the mouse complains."

    'Squeak, squeak!' I say! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    Sheet: Apologies for getting mixed up about what you said. I'm too lazy to re-read posts.
    Gary Player: It's only the sissy who complains about gamesmanship. If I'm playing you and I let you affect me then I'm a sissy.
    Great quote!

    I would have to add that if you can affect the other guy, cissy or not, within the rules of the game then why not? No disturbance or distraction when playing, or setting up to play, a shot; everything else is fair game. Yeah, friends are great, but you don't have to be everybody's friend. Having some sporting rivals, and even grudge matches adds a certain spice to the game.
    That bunker trick Madds posted was pure genius. A player has no duty to tell you where his ball is, just how many strokes they've played (is that correct?).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Obni wrote: »
    That bunker trick Madds posted was pure genius. A player has no duty to tell you where his ball is, just how many strokes they've played (is that correct?).

    Obni, you're going to hell ;)


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