Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

Steve · 11-03-2008 01:07AM

randylonghorn wrote: »

Agreed.

Any hope we could leave it at that before some neighbour / friend of the older siblings / etc. pops across it?

Might be nice to give the outward impression there was still a modicum of compassion and an ounce of common sense still left in ireland.

agreed - maybe a mod could end this and lock the thread please?

Xavi6 · 11-03-2008 01:09AM

In before the lock. Phew

Steve · 11-03-2008 01:15AM

Xavi6 wrote: »

In before the lock. Phew

goin straight to hell for that..

11-03-2008 01:25AM

foinse wrote: »

I'm growing weary of your little back and forward game, if you have something to say come out and say it, i have gotten my information from people within the garda force, If you have some evidence to the contrary i would be delighted to hear it, but dragging out a simple point over a page and a half of a forum, and then at the end making a comment like above smacks of pettiness and does nothing to further your argument.

I do agree that those who have committed a crime or wronged another person should be punished for what they do no matter what walk of life they come from.

However where i seem to disagree with you, is that I also believe in innocence until guilt is proven, when i see the hard cold facts of this case i will make my comments about what in my view the correct course of action should be,I suggest that everyone involved in this thread should probably do the same, but until then, stop presuming that it was the garda that was to blame, and wait until the fact have been proven.

This was a tragic and needless, loss of a young life, but blaming the driver of the car, while it may make you feel better because you have somebody to blame, will not bring the child back to life. nor will it help the childs grieving family.

I was merely highlighting your point as being wrong, regarding who's been left to do the investigation and as for you getting it from within the force, it's still not true. Last month a young man (well known to Gardai) was subject to a vicious beating by many members of the force who forced their way into his flat, held his mother while they proceeded to kick the living daylights out of him. The man investigating this initially was Irish, as was a follow up person. So your information is not very accurate as you can tell.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You're at it again. You seem to presume that the Gardai were 'clearly acting out of order'. Why do you make this presumption? Were you there? Did you witness it? Do you know all the facts?

No one said that they do nothing wrong. We don't rush to judgement without knowing the facts.

As for guilty, when have I said he was at fault? Some people just ramble on with defensive crap unrelated to the point of whether or not it will be a transparent investigation, that I was making.

Cantab. · 11-03-2008 02:43AM

Xavi6 wrote:

In before the lock. Phew

I think there's a few more pages yet...

Zachary · 11-03-2008 03:55AM

The attitude of the gardai strutting round in taxpayers' squad cars is appalling. I don't know who's supervising some of these guys, but they're becoming more and more ignorant and rude and think they own the country.

It's about time they were taken down a couple of pegs with all the crap has been happening, not to mention the more recent unprofessionalism that's been going on (i.e. that young man getting beaten up and this garda knocking down a 7 year-old).

They deserve everything that's thrown at them. They're overpaid enough as it is already and getting rid of a few of 'em won't do the public finances any harm.

Xavi6 · 11-03-2008 04:08AM

Zachary wrote: »

The attitude of the gardai strutting round in taxpayers' squad cars is appalling. I don't know who's supervising some of these guys, but they're becoming more and more ignorant and rude and think they own the country.

It's about time they were taken down a couple of pegs with all the crap has been happening, not to mention the more recent unprofessionalism that's been going on (i.e. that young man getting beaten up and this garda knocking down a 7 year-old).

They deserve everything that's thrown at them. They're overpaid enough as it is already and getting rid of a few of 'em won't do the public finances any harm.

I think it's time someone went to bed.....

passive · 11-03-2008 04:33AM

Zachary wrote: »

The attitude of the gardai strutting round in taxpayers' squad cars is appalling. I don't know who's supervising some of these guys, but they're becoming more and more ignorant and rude and think they own the country.

It's about time they were taken down a couple of pegs with all the crap has been happening, not to mention the more recent unprofessionalism that's been going on (i.e. that young man getting beaten up and this garda knocking down a 7 year-old).

They deserve everything that's thrown at them. They're overpaid enough as it is already and getting rid of a few of 'em won't do the public finances any harm.

Go away you silly man...

Dragan · 11-03-2008 10:58AM

Cantab. wrote: »

I'm sure the garda will get away with it no matter what happens.

Ah now i get it. Your a troll.

Makes sense. No one could really be the single minded in their hatred for the Gardai.

Orion · 11-03-2008 11:23AM

Zachary wrote: »

puerile crap

... words fail me ...

Dragan · 11-03-2008 11:32AM

Zachary wrote: »

The attitude of the gardai strutting round in taxpayers' squad cars is appalling. I don't know who's supervising some of these guys, but they're becoming more and more ignorant and rude and think they own the country.

It's about time they were taken down a couple of pegs with all the crap has been happening, not to mention the more recent unprofessionalism that's been going on (i.e. that young man getting beaten up and this garda knocking down a 7 year-old).

They deserve everything that's thrown at them. They're overpaid enough as it is already and getting rid of a few of 'em won't do the public finances any harm.

teeee heeeee heeeee

Your funny.

source · 11-03-2008 12:00PM

I'm appalled with the opinions of some people on this site, and with the lack of respect they have for the ordinary people out there 24/7/365 doing a dangerous and thankless job trying to keep people safe.

Now i know that that little snippet will be taken completely out of context and some people are going to ask about what they did to keep the 7 year old safe, well i wasn't at the scene of this tragic accident, and i don't know what the actions of the gardai at the scene were, so unlike others in this thread, like i have said before, i am not going to comment on that. but i'm damn sure that their training would have kicked in and they would have at least tried to administer first aid.

Bottom line is this unfortunate child ran out into traffic without looking, and what happens when you do that??? generally you suffer the consequences. Which this time unfortunately wound up being the tragic loss of his young life.

I think a lot of people on this thread need to do some serious growing up, re their attitude towards the gardai, If you could spend one saturday night with the gardai i'm sure when you see the amount of sh1t they put up with without rising to provocation your outlook would definately change.

Again i'm going to have to repeat the same old mantra that those of us who respect the gardai and the job they do on our behalf: The gardai like any other job is bound to have a few bad apples but just because a very very small minority of them are up to no good, doesn't mean the whole force is out there looking for people to beat up, and frame. Yes a few do slip though the cracks but i can guarantee you that when gardai find out about these individuals then they are as disgusted as everybody else in the country.

To Jay

are you 100% positive that they were GSOC, and not senior garda officials who initially arrived at the scene??? you still haven't given evidence that supports your claim that these investigators were irish, you have just repeated yourself, and said that they were irish, now if they were irish then i have obviously been given misinformation, but i really don't believe i have, so if you would like to share with the rest of us where you got your information then i'm sure it would make your argument stronger.

Zachary · 11-03-2008 02:29PM

foinse wrote: »

I'm appalled with the opinions of some people on this site, and with the lack of respect they have for the ordinary people out there 24/7/365 doing a dangerous and thankless job trying to keep people safe.

It's out of disgust for Gardai who take the law into their own hands (i.e. beat up people) and knock down innocent children through their wreckless actions.

foinse wrote: »

Now i know that that little snippet will be taken completely out of context and some people are going to ask about what they did to keep the 7 year old safe, well i wasn't at the scene of this tragic accident, and i don't know what the actions of the gardai at the scene were, so unlike others in this thread, like i have said before, i am not going to comment on that. but i'm damn sure that their training would have kicked in and they would have at least tried to administer first aid.

It's a pity your training doesn't tell you to drive slower when you're going through a 50 kph zone (beside a shopping centre and in a residential area) in the middle of the day.

foinse wrote: »

Bottom line is this unfortunate child ran out into traffic without looking, and what happens when you do that???

You're locked up and brought before a judge.

foinse wrote: »

generally you suffer the consequences. Which this time unfortunately wound up being the tragic loss of his young life.

It certainly is.

foinse wrote: »

I think a lot of people on this thread need to do some serious growing up, re their attitude towards the gardai, If you could spend one saturday night with the gardai i'm sure when you see the amount of sh1t they put up with without rising to provocation your outlook would definately change.

You should of thought of that before signing up to the force. The garda wage and pension plan isn't bad in all fairness.

foinse wrote: »

Again i'm going to have to repeat the same old mantra that those of us who respect the gardai and the job they do on our behalf: The gardai like any other job is bound to have a few bad apples but just because a very very small minority of them are up to no good, doesn't mean the whole force is out there looking for people to beat up, and frame. Yes a few do slip though the cracks but i can guarantee you that when gardai find out about these individuals then they are as disgusted as everybody else in the country.

That's fine, but when they do wrong, they should be treated like everybody else. Otherwise people just won't as you say "respect the gardai and the job they do on our behalf".

Anyway, I'm from around that area of Finglas and what happened was a disgrace.

Wishbone Ash · 11-03-2008 02:33PM

Zachary wrote: »

drive slower when you're going through a 50 kph zone (beside a shopping centre and in a residential area) in the middle of the day

Zachary - do you have a driving licence and have you ever driven a vehicle on a public road?

Karoma · 11-03-2008 02:36PM

Keep digging, 'Zachary'.

stevec wrote: »

agreed - maybe a mod could end this and lock the thread please?

On what grounds? I've heard a few calls for this but to date, nobody has specified a damn good reason (only "I don't like it! It's disrepectful...I know I've posted disrespectful stuff in my time but this is different! IT'S ME THAT'S OFFENDED DAMNIT!"
Answers on the back of a reported post. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

Zachary · 11-03-2008 02:38PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Zachary - do you have a driving licence and have you ever driven a vehicle on a public road?

Well being the mod of the "learning to drive" forum, you'd surely know that driving over 50kph in a residential area is reckless?

Wishbone Ash · 11-03-2008 02:44PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Zachary - do you have a driving licence and have you ever driven a vehicle on a public road?

Zachary wrote: »

Well being the mod of the "learning to drive" forum, you'd surely know that driving over 50kph in a residential area is reckless?

A child can be killed at 20kph.

(...and it's 'wreckless' not 'reckless'.)

Now, do you have a Driving Licence and have you ever driven a vehicle on a public road?

Karoma · 11-03-2008 02:46PM

Zachary sitebanned.
Cantab.: Banned from AH for a while. We need to chat about why using another account to backup your argument and troll is bad, mmmkay?

Dragan · 11-03-2008 04:48PM

Karoma wrote: »

Cantab.: Banned from AH for a while. We need to chat about why using another account to backup your argument and troll is bad, mmmkay?

I fooking new it! Not even the greatest of the cop haters can be that single minded!!!

Noopti · 11-03-2008 04:54PM

I remember not long ago I saw an unmarked Gardai car mount the central isle on O'Connell street with its lights flashing, drive down about 30 yards, whilst gesturing at pedestrians to get out of the way, all seemingly to overtake a bus. They then pulled back onto the road and turned the lights off to continue on their journey (they were not on an emergency call, as they simply rejoined a line of traffic and sat in it).

I just hope the Gardai involved in the tragic incident with the child were driving in a safe manner.

Eru · 11-03-2008 05:09PM

Noopti wrote: »

I remember not long ago I saw an unmarked Gardai car mount the central isle on O'Connell street with its lights flashing, drive down about 30 yards, whilst gesturing at pedestrians to get out of the way, all seemingly to overtake a bus. They then pulled back onto the road and turned the lights off to continue on their journey (they were not on an emergency call, as they simply rejoined a line of traffic and sat in it).

I just hope the Gardai involved in the tragic incident with the child were driving in a safe manner.

Perhaps the emergency call was cancelled or another unit got there first and 'stood down' additional units?

utick wrote: »

well originally i had the title as gardai killed 7 year old (because we dont yet know the circumstances), which could mean it was wrecklesness or simply an accident. to state it as an accident before you know the facts is being a little presumptious

you need to read a dictionary and understand what the word 'accident' means. Its not an accident if the Garda aimed and deliberately hit the kid and thats called murder. Is this your suggestion? Even if your drunk and driving at 100 miles an hour its still an 'accident' as it was not your intention.

Jay D wrote: »

I thought you would notice that when they go very fast through built up areas, then stop at the lights, it would indicate needless excessive speed.

How? If they plowed straight through a light you would be saying the same thing. Perhaps if people paid attention when they are driving and actually noticed the blue light and loud siren the Gardai could go through red lights without slowing down but thats not reality.
As for your other comments; A, You dont have a radio so have absolutely no idea what they are speeding towards. Perhaps its an armed robbery like last nights?
B, as above, how do you know why they are going through a red light?
C, Emergency services are exempt from that particular law regarding mobile phones (and radios), trying knowing the subject before commenting on it.

stevec wrote: »

With respect to the Guards and the $hite job they have to do:
What gets me is Guards (in the course of duty) are immune to the road traffic act. i.e. speeding, dangerous driving, running lights.

Fine, if they were trained how to drive, most aren't, they are driving on standard licenses same as joe average.

Incorrect, section 27 RTA 2004 clearly states that dangerous driving and drink driving are not included in the exemption. They are exempt from speed limits, directions, parking and lights only where it is required to protect life and property, enforce the law and in a manner that does not endanger the public needlessly.

It would appear to be common sense and needed that Gardai dont have to obey lights, parking and speeding laws when going to an emergency. Seriously, the alternative is that Gardai have to find a parking space and pay before actually tackling the mugger, bank robber, etc.
"Car 1, that man is shooting people in there, where are you?"
"Sorry control, traffic was busy and I just CANNOT find a parking space"

Gardai must have a full clean license to drive a patrol car, there is an advanced course which is not part of basic training. Garda WANT this too be basic training but the reality is there ar not enough spaces or staff to keep a sufficient number of Gardai trained and as a result you get 'chiefs' permission where its needed to maintain adequate cover but a 'chiefs' permission driver can only driver when there are no trained drivers available.

This could have been anyone driving any car. You dont let a 7 year old play around or near a busy main road, sorry if thats harsh but the blame should not be on the driver but on the parents if anywhere. Personally this incident just proves that people love to attack the Gardai and make up facts to help.

Orion · 11-03-2008 07:23PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(...and it's 'wreckless' not 'reckless'.)

Worthy of a Spell Czechs citing - it's reckless

Mutz · 11-03-2008 11:59PM

just for all the Garda Haters in the room:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0311/chapelizod.html?rss

All the good work they do always seems to be overshadowed by the wrong doers. Ah well. :rolleyes:

12-03-2008 12:03AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Perhaps the emergency call was cancelled or another unit got there first and 'stood down' additional units?

Would you ever get a grip. How many relatives are there in the farce of yours? Like it's all well and good that there are exceptions but people like you seem to state that there is always a good reason for their actions when people like me aren't so oblivious (or stupid enough) to see this as the case.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

How? If they plowed straight through a light you would be saying the same thing. Perhaps if people paid attention when they are driving and actually noticed the blue light and loud siren the Gardai could go through red lights without slowing down but thats not reality.
As for your other comments; A, You dont have a radio so have absolutely no idea what they are speeding towards. Perhaps its an armed robbery like last nights?
B, as above, how do you know why they are going through a red light?
C, Emergency services are exempt from that particular law regarding mobile phones (and radios), trying knowing the subject before commenting on it.

How you ask, well how about the fact that most of the times (any in fact I've noticed, unless they continued driving through with their sirens blared for right of way, genuine cases maybe) after a burst of speed with two boys in the front laughing their heads off, or at least pretending to be, then coming to a stop at lights and having a good laugh about it. It's way more than once I have seen this. Ok? It's something that when seen so many times, you get a jist of what reality is.

What kind of an idiotic statemt is that to make then? If people paid more attention etc.... How the hell would I anticipate an emergency vehicle coming straight out of a side road, if I was on the main road? I didn't get my license by making such a stupid assumption anyway.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Personally this incident just proves that people love to attack the Gardai and make up facts to help.

So you admit this is personal to you. Does that render the rest of this post invalid points?

Steve · 12-03-2008 12:46AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Incorrect, section 27 RTA 2004 clearly states that dangerous driving and drink driving are not included in the exemption. They are exempt from speed limits, directions, parking and lights

I stand corrected.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

only where it is required to protect life and property, enforce the law and in a manner that does not endanger the public needlessly.

Says nothing about life and property, only qualification is that it is in the course of duty and doesn't needlessly endanger other road users.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

It would appear to be common sense and needed that Gardai dont have to obey lights, parking and speeding laws when going to an emergency. Seriously, the alternative is that Gardai have to find a parking space and pay before actually tackling the mugger, bank robber, etc.
"Car 1, that man is shooting people in there, where are you?"
"Sorry control, traffic was busy and I just CANNOT find a parking space"

+1

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Gardai must have a full clean license to drive a patrol car, there is an advanced course which is not part of basic training. Garda WANT this too be basic training but the reality is there ar not enough spaces or staff to keep a sufficient number of Gardai trained and as a result you get 'chiefs' permission where its needed to maintain adequate cover but a 'chiefs' permission driver can only driver when there are no trained drivers available.

What I've read is: there is a 2 week advanced course that they can do that qualifies a Guard to drive. If they don't pass it, they can't drive at all (can no longer get 'chiefs' permission even though they could do so before the course and now have the benefit of advanced training) so many Guards choose not to do it.

MrJoeSoap · 12-03-2008 12:58AM

stevec wrote: »

What I've read is: there is a 2 week advanced course that they can do that qualifies a Guard to drive. If they don't pass it, they can't drive at all (can no longer get 'chiefs' permission even though they could do so before the course and now have the benefit of advanced training) so many Guards choose not to do it.

If they don't pass it the second time around that is, afaik. Same with the motorbike course.

The two-week training course is actually supposed to be a three week course (it is standard across Europe) but nobody in Ireland does the full three weeks because that would remove the guilt from the driver and place it onto the Garda Organisation as a whole. But, the current system still allows the blame to be placed on driver error itself.

As it stands, I know of one Garda station in Dublin where roughly 20% of the drivers have even completed the two week test.

Eru · 12-03-2008 07:31AM

Steve,
My apologies, life and property is the basis for all Garda actions that allow them to act contrary to law such as kicking a door in, hitting someone with a baton, etc, etc, etc. Too long to list all possibilities. Couldnt use lights and sirens for some minor call that required no urgency such as an 80 year old shoplifter being quietly detained in Brown Thomas.

Driving course, the course gives you more protection than not having it, sounds strange but if you pass the course the Gardai have to take some of the grief should you be in trouble as they trained you. With chiefs your on your own but your correct if you fail it, thats that until you get another shot. Pros and cons. About 50% of the drivers I know are not trained. The course used to be 4 weeks but was scaled back, the instructors then automatically failed everyone on their first attempt in protest but its just the way it is now.

MrJoeSoap,
Never heard that 2 fails was a lifetime ban but I will take your word for it as I dont know otherwise. Wanna make sure your paying attention in class if its your second go then

Jay D,
My comment and use of the word 'personally' should clearly demonstrate that I was refering to a 'personal opinion' not a 'personal issue' but I suspect your merely trying to argue for the fun of it.

As it happens it is personal to me as I am a serving Garda and I guarantee I know more about this subject than you do, even if you are trying to make youself look like some weird type of 'Garda watcher' with a notebook, listening device and binoculars. Thus you are able to state that the majority of times Gardai are simple messing about, theres no calls on the radio and the Gardai are laughing an joking about.

Maybe your just a failed wannabee, someone that Got spanked a few times for being bold or just a run of the mill kid that knows everything and listens to nothing. I dont know which but your certainly full of bitterness towards my colleagues. Sure why dont you sign up as a reserve and show us how to do things properly?;)

Oh and as for this little nugget:

Jay D wrote: »

What kind of an idiotic statemt is that to make then? If people paid more attention etc.... How the hell would I anticipate an emergency vehicle coming straight out of a side road, if I was on the main road? I didn't get my license by making such a stupid assumption anyway.

I seriously doubt you have a full license if you dont think a speeding white car with reflective stickers, a flashing blue light and a really, really loud siren should draw your attention.

So before you do your test, heres a tip, its a part of the course and test that you MUST be aware of your surroundings and you will be tested on this so pay attention to signs and other vehicles should they attempt to pull out in front of you, etc. By your own admission you dont do this at present so take the advice and for the love of god man take off the blinkers and the crap you have all over your windows

TheNog · 12-03-2008 08:08AM

Jay D wrote: »

Would you ever get a grip. How many relatives are there in the farce of yours? Like it's all well and good that there are exceptions but people like you seem to state that there is always a good reason for their actions when people like me aren't so oblivious (or stupid enough) to see this as the case.

There always must be a good reason for driving with lights and sirens on as well as speeding. Do you honestly think that gardai put on the lights and sirens for the laugh? If they did and say crashed the car, it would come out in the investigation and the driver could seriously risk losing his/her job over it.

Jay D wrote: »

How you ask, well how about the fact that most of the times (any in fact I've noticed, unless they continued driving through with their sirens blared for right of way, genuine cases maybe) after a burst of speed with two boys in the front laughing their heads off, or at least pretending to be, then coming to a stop at lights and having a good laugh about it. It's way more than once I have seen this. Ok? It's something that when seen so many times, you get a jist of what reality is.

Again maybe the call was cancelled and maybe they were laughing at something said over the radio or between themselves. You and I just don't know

Jay D wrote: »

What kind of an idiotic statemt is that to make then? If people paid more attention etc.... How the hell would I anticipate an emergency vehicle coming straight out of a side road, if I was on the main road? I didn't get my license by making such a stupid assumption anyway.

Maybe not anticipate an emergency vehicle but you should certainly anticipate/be prepared for any vehicle to come out a side road. "Expect the unexpected" I believe is the saying for L drivers.

TheNog · 12-03-2008 08:11AM

Noopti wrote: »

I remember not long ago I saw an unmarked Gardai car mount the central isle on O'Connell street with its lights flashing, drive down about 30 yards, whilst gesturing at pedestrians to get out of the way, all seemingly to overtake a bus. They then pulled back onto the road and turned the lights off to continue on their journey (they were not on an emergency call, as they simply rejoined a line of traffic and sat in it).

I just hope the Gardai involved in the tragic incident with the child were driving in a safe manner.

Again we don't know if they were on an emergency call and it was cancelled.

12-03-2008 10:16AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Steve,

Jay D,
My comment and use of the word 'personally' should clearly demonstrate that I was refering to a 'personal opinion' not a 'personal issue' but I suspect your merely trying to argue for the fun of it.

As it happens it is personal to me as I am a serving Garda and I guarantee I know more about this subject than you do, even if you are trying to make youself look like some weird type of 'Garda watcher' with a notebook, listening device and binoculars. Thus you are able to state that the majority of times Gardai are simple messing about, theres no calls on the radio and the Gardai are laughing an joking about.

Maybe your just a failed wannabee, someone that Got spanked a few times for being bold or just a run of the mill kid that knows everything and listens to nothing. I dont know which but your certainly full of bitterness towards my colleagues. Sure why dont you sign up as a reserve and show us how to do things properly?;)

Oh and as for this little nugget:

I seriously doubt you have a full license if you dont think a speeding white car with reflective stickers, a flashing blue light and a really, really loud siren should draw your attention.

So before you do your test, heres a tip, its a part of the course and test that you MUST be aware of your surroundings and you will be tested on this so pay attention to signs and other vehicles should they attempt to pull out in front of you, etc. By your own admission you dont do this at present so take the advice and for the love of god man take off the blinkers and the crap you have all over your windows

I am not bitter at all. I have never been in trouble so what I am saying is a point that I believe to be true. Yes you must excuse me as a weird Garda watcher. I do be sitting up in a tree near different junctions everyday. I'll be watching out for you now.

As for the speeding emergencey vehicle, you made a point that they shouldn't have to stop, going through red lights. Clearly visible up ahead at a junction I can clearly see, fine, all I'm saying is that for a car to come off a minor junction without stopping, in Dublin would almost certainly lead to a collision even as much as I AM aware of my surroundings.

Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

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