Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

source · 09-03-2008 01:27PM

Jay D wrote: »

without jumping on this bandwagon of police bashing....

Who here can honestly say that on more than one occasion they have not seen the cops driving at needless excessive speeds?

Unless you're in the car listening to the radio you do not know it the speeds they are doing are excessive or not,

Jay D wrote: »

Who here never observed them use their sirens just to get through a traffic light?

This i have seen, but not all emergencies require blue lights all the way, say for a call where you have intruders on a premises you don't want to alert them that you're coming, but you still need to get there fast, so you use the lights to get through the traffic lights then switch them off again unless you need them.

Jay D wrote: »

Who here has never observed them talk on a hand held mobile phone, even after such an act was outlawed?

Emergency service personnell are exempt from this law due to the poor and unsecure nature of the radio systems that they have to use.

Jay D wrote: »

Amazingly so many here will still speak up in defence without any evidence at all.

As for transparancey in such an investigation where a member of the force is at fault for a fatal collision, it will be intersting to see what the ombudsman's involvement will be.

I'm not about to start accusing or saying anything but let's not forget that careless cow on the Ranelagh Rd who plowed into the old lady standing at tge bus stop a few years back now. All well and good she get's paid leave, free consultaions or should I say government paid. All well and good to some people but it's about time their blatant carelessness which costs such a price will lead them to be held accountable for exactly what took place rather than it all being brushed under the carpet.

As i said in a previous (deleted) post on this thread, the Garda Ombudsman Commission is an independent body to the Gardai, and is made up of ex foreign police officers, who have no links or loyalties to the GS. The days of Garda cover ups are gone, because nowadays it doesn't matter who you know in the Gardai or how high a rank they are, if the GOC get hold of the case they will investigate it fully and if they think that any charges should be brought against a member of the GS then that is what will happen.

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2008 01:31PM

foinse wrote: »

Emergency service personnell are exempt from this law due to the poor and unsecure nature of the radio systems that they have to use.

That's not the reason as the regulations governing the use of mobile telephones also covers two way radios, CB radios etc.

Emergency service personel may use their mobile telephones or two way radios.

source · 09-03-2008 01:36PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's not the reason as the regulations governing the use of mobile telephones also covers two way radios, CB radios etc.

Emergency service personel may use their mobile telephones or two way radios.

It may not be the only reason but it is definately a factor, the bigger stuff is never put out over the unsecure airwaves, that is gardai carry state phones on them when they are on duty.

09-03-2008 01:51PM

foinse wrote: »

Unless you're in the car listening to the radio you do not know it the speeds they are doing are excessive or not,

This i have seen, but not all emergencies require blue lights all the way, say for a call where you have intruders on a premises you don't want to alert them that you're coming, but you still need to get there fast, so you use the lights to get through the traffic lights then switch them off again unless you need them.

Yes when you see them going through the lights, then a few moments later pass by them in the shop getting lunch.... I'm not saying it's often but it does happen.
As I said in a previous post, often it's the case they drive at speed through built up areas, then stop at lights etc, indicating a boy racer mentality and most certainly not required increased speed.

As i said in a previous (deleted) post on this thread, the Garda Ombudsman Commission is an independent body to the Gardai, and is made up of ex foreign police officers, who have no links or loyalties to the GS. The days of Garda cover ups are gone, because nowadays it doesn't matter who you know in the Gardai or how high a rank they are, if the GOC get hold of the case they will investigate it fully and if they think that any charges should be brought against a member of the GS then that is what will happen.

The days of corruption and cover ups are far from over although it is good to see it being tackled now which hopefully will lead to those days being over. As for them being foreign, I know this is most definitely not the case a lot of the time, not saying I know of any foreigners working in it at all but I know of Irish people working in that office. So what exactly are you saying, they're made up of a completely foreign work force?

source · 09-03-2008 01:56PM

Jay D wrote: »

So what exactly are you saying, they're made up of a completely foreign work force?

No the commissioners and management are Irish, but the investigative branch of it is ie. the ones at the sharp end are foreign ex police, it's a prerequsite to getting the job, and in my opinion a damn good idea.

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2008 02:13PM

Jay D wrote: »

Yes when you see them going through the lights, then a few moments later pass by them in the shop getting lunch

Gardai don't get mealbreaks in the ordinary sense. They must make a request for refreshments via Garda Control. This request may not be granted. If it is granted, they are still on duty and must be prepared to drop the bacon sandwich and go where required. As they are on duty, they are exempt from the Road Traffic Regulations and may therefore go through the lights if it is safe to do so. (I'm not condoning the practise, just explaining why it may happen).

09-03-2008 02:29PM

foinse wrote: »

No the commissioners and management are Irish, but the investigative branch of it is ie. the ones at the sharp end are foreign ex police, it's a prerequsite to getting the job, and in my opinion a damn good idea.

so basically the ones that go out and ask questions about an issue are not Irish?

source · 09-03-2008 02:48PM

Jay D wrote: »

so basically the ones that go out and ask questions about an issue are not Irish?

Why is it so hard to understand this??? For an investigative service who is better than trained police? now for a truely impartial investigative service who is better than trained police from outside the jurisdiction???

People have been complaining for years about gardai investigating gardai, now there is a system in place where police, from say.....the north, the UK, Australia etc etc, (in other words, places that use common law like Ireland). Will investigate the Irish police. All this means is that there is a real non biased view in any investigation due to the fact that the investigators have no loyalties to the GS.

In fact AFAIK you cannot become an investigator with the GSOC if you have been a member of the GS

Dave! · 09-03-2008 02:53PM

Who here can honestly say that on more than one occasion they have not seen the cops driving at needless excessive speeds?

Me... I've seen them driving fast alright, but then -- they are the police. If they were crawling along they would get to the incident late, and then you would moan about that.

Who here never observed them use their sirens just to get through a traffic light?

Me. I'm sure it happens sometimes though. Hardly a big deal though is it? I'd rather they're not sitting in traffic for ages, even if they're not on a call; I'd much prefer they're free to attend an incident fairly quickly.

Who here has never observed them talk on a hand held mobile phone, even after such an act was outlawed?

I've seen them do that. I've seen them using batons too, and breaking traffic lights. But -- they are the police, so in the course of their duties they often have to do things that civilians are not allowed to do. They have to use their mobiles to communicate because their radios are sh*te.

09-03-2008 02:54PM

I take on board what you are saying but that didn't answer my question.

09-03-2008 02:56PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

Who here can honestly say that on more than one occasion they have not seen the cops driving at needless excessive speeds?

Me... I've seen them driving fast alright, but then -- they are the police. If they were crawling along they would get to the incident late, and then you would moan about that.

bearing in mind of course we are talking about a child's life here that may have been due to careless driving.

Terry · 09-03-2008 03:00PM

Jay D wrote: »

I take on board what you are saying but that didn't answer my question.

What answer do you want?
ACAB?

Do you want us all to agree that every single cop is a law breaker and takes bribes and other crap like that?

Do you want us all to ignore the cops and take the law into our own hands?

Do you want us to blame every cop for the mistake of one?

That's what I think you want to see, but the reality is that, yes there are a few bad apples, but on the whole, the Gardai are not corrupt or out to get you or any other 15 year old rebel crap.

09-03-2008 03:04PM

Terry wrote: »

What answer do you want?
ACAB?

Do you want us all to agree that every single cop is a law breaker and takes bribes and other crap like that?

Do you want us all to ignore the cops and take the law into our own hands?

Do you want us to blame every cop for the mistake of one?

That's what I think you want to see, but the reality is that, yes there are a few bad apples, but on the whole, the Gardai are not corrupt or out to get you or any other 15 year old rebel crap.

I was actually referring to the nationality of the ombudsman investigators, just for arguement sake, if you had bothered reading a few posts. It seems you want to go on to other things I am not talking about.

source · 09-03-2008 03:06PM

Jay D wrote: »

I take on board what you are saying but that didn't answer my question.

I believe i did answer your question, if not please rephrase your question.

Jay D wrote: »

bearing in mind of course we are talking about a child's life here that may have been due to careless driving.

We are also talking about a childs life which may have been prematurly taken because he/she may have ran out into traffic without watching where he/she was going.

If this was caused by a taxi driver, a milkman, a delivery man, or even an ordinary person going about their everyday business, i can guarantee that this thread 1 might not even exist and 2 if it did it'd be nowhere near as big as this one.

Lets face it some people just love to see Gardai in any little spot of difficulty, because it affirms their own beliefs that gardai are heartless corrupt bastards.

To the people insinuating that this poor childs death was caused by malace or carelessness on the part of the driver......take a moment to think about all the times you've had to jam on the breaks when driving, because some person decides to walk out in front of you without looking, accidents happen, and yes someone is generally always to blame, but as soon as a garda is involved in something like this everybody jumps on the bandwagon and starts the garda bashing.

There are 2 sides to every story. don't presume that just because one of those sides is a child that they're completely innocent.

Talliesin · 09-03-2008 03:21PM

As a parent I can only shudder with horror at the idea of something like this happening to one of mine.

But what would have me on the verge of violent rage wouldn't be the drivers of the car, but the people that are making masturbatory quasi-political capital from it while the body is still warm.

There are better things to have an ego-**** over than a child's very recent death and the grief of their family and friends.

09-03-2008 04:04PM

foinse wrote: »

I believe i did answer your question, if not please rephrase your question.

How more more simple do you want me to make the question? I asked you was it non nationals doing the investigations for the ombudsman.

as for the child's life I was pointing that out cause someone felt the need to make an incorrect assumption.

source · 09-03-2008 04:06PM

Jay D wrote: »

How more more simple do you want me to make the question? I asked you was it non nationals doing the investigations for the ombudsman.

Why is it so hard to understand this??? For an investigative service who is better than trained police? now for a truely impartial investigative service who is better than trained police from outside the jurisdiction???

People have been complaining for years about gardai investigating gardai, now there is a system in place where police, from say.....the north, the UK, Australia etc etc, (in other words, places that use common law like Ireland). Will investigate the Irish police. All this means is that there is a real non biased view in any investigation due to the fact that the investigators have no loyalties to the GS.

In fact AFAIK you cannot become an investigator with the GSOC if you have been a member of the GS

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2008 04:14PM

Jay D wrote: »

Amazingly so many here will still speak up in defence without any evidence at all

Perhaps it is because we believe in the cornerstone of our judicial system - that a person is deemed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty.

You seem to go with the warped version - that a person is guilty until proven innocent. :rolleyes:

09-03-2008 04:15PM

I can tell you for an absolute fact that the case regarding the man in south inner city recently was being investigated by two Irish people from the ombudsman's office, just so you know.

09-03-2008 04:19PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Perhaps it is because we believe in the cornerstone of our judicial system - that a person is deemed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty.

You seem to go with the warped version - that a person is guilty until proven innocent. :rolleyes:

not really, I like a lot of things most do, contrary to what you might think but at the same time those clearly acting out of order should be penalised accordingly and the possibility of them being wrong must be taken into consideration as it has by far been the case throughout that they do nothing wrong, which is bull****.

source · 09-03-2008 04:57PM

Jay D wrote: »

I can tell you for an absolute fact that the case regarding the man in south inner city recently was being investigated by two Irish people from the ombudsman's office, just so you know.

I'm growing weary of your little back and forward game, if you have something to say come out and say it, i have gotten my information from people within the garda force, If you have some evidence to the contrary i would be delighted to hear it, but dragging out a simple point over a page and a half of a forum, and then at the end making a comment like above smacks of pettiness and does nothing to further your argument.

I do agree that those who have committed a crime or wronged another person should be punished for what they do no matter what walk of life they come from.

However where i seem to disagree with you, is that I also believe in innocence until guilt is proven, when i see the hard cold facts of this case i will make my comments about what in my view the correct course of action should be,I suggest that everyone involved in this thread should probably do the same, but until then, stop presuming that it was the garda that was to blame, and wait until the fact have been proven.

This was a tragic and needless, loss of a young life, but blaming the driver of the car, while it may make you feel better because you have somebody to blame, will not bring the child back to life. nor will it help the childs grieving family.

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2008 08:56PM

Jay D wrote: »

those clearly acting out of order should be penalised accordingly

You're at it again. You seem to presume that the Gardai were 'clearly acting out of order'. Why do you make this presumption? Were you there? Did you witness it? Do you know all the facts?

No one said that they do nothing wrong. We don't rush to judgement without knowing the facts.

phantom_lord · 09-03-2008 09:16PM

Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

I would have thought "accidentally" was a bit superfluous in the title.

Cantab. · 09-03-2008 09:19PM

If I knock down a cow on the road, I'm responsible.

If I knock down an old granny on the road, I'm responsible (yes, even if she jumps out in front of me like a kangaroo).

If a garda (or any other person) knocks down a 7-year-old boy on the road, he's responsible. The degree to which he acted recklessly will come out in the report.

If the garda was completely fairy white (for some unimaginable reason), I'm sure there'd be a prompt press-release from the garda press office: they'd explain the situation for fear of letting the issue linger in the media and put a stop to rumour and speculation. They haven't done this, so we can only tend towards the conclusion that the garda was indeed, driving irresponsibly. (just like a man who knocks down a farmer's prize cow)

Note, I haven't made any hard conclusions in this post -- yes, I'm aware that only a judge can make hard conclusions on the actions of another person. I am making soft, probabilistic conclusions based on the unfortunate road traffic event and the subsequent actions of the garda press office.

Wishbone Ash · 09-03-2008 09:27PM

phantom_lord wrote: »

I would have thought "accidentally" was a bit superfluous in the title.

The original title was ridiculous and was changed by a mod.

Cantab. wrote: »

If I knock down a cow on the road, I'm responsible

No. The owner of the animal is usually deemed to be responsible for ensuring that it does not stray onto public roads.

Cantab. wrote:

....... he's responsible. The degree to which he acted recklessly will come out in the report....... .......we can only tend towards the conclusion that the garda was indeed, driving irresponsibly

Note, I haven't made any hard conclusions in this post

Are you for real! :rolleyes:

garygareth · 09-03-2008 10:21PM

I just hope that family takes some action regarding this tragic situation.
If it was my child I would ****ing personally kill that ****. Could'nt give a **** weather he was a guard or not. I just hope he falls into depression and ends up in depair through alcohol abuse!!! Hopefully then it will end in the taking of his own life!

Karoma · 09-03-2008 10:36PM

garygareth wrote: »

I just hope that family takes some action regarding this tragic situation.
If it was my child I would ****ing personally kill that ****. Could'nt give a **** weather he was a guard or not. I just hope he falls into depression and ends up in depair through alcohol abuse!!! Hopefully then it will end in the taking of his own life!

Careful now.

ed: banned for this + general crap.

the_syco · 09-03-2008 10:52PM

Erm, why was the kid on the N2 in the first place? FFS, it's a dual-carriageway.

projectmayhem · 09-03-2008 11:04PM

garygareth wrote: »

I just hope that family takes some action regarding this tragic situation.
If it was my child I would ****ing personally kill that ****. Could'nt give a **** weather he was a guard or not. I just hope he falls into depression and ends up in depair through alcohol abuse!!! Hopefully then it will end in the taking of his own life!

comments like this aren't helpful. a lot of people seem to be coming to the conclusion that the gards veered over to ensure they took a good potshot at the poor kid, but in fact it's probably just a tragic accident. as much as i feel for the family, i doubt the gard in question is taking it easy and having a good nights sleep right now either.

as syco said, the real question is why a young child was on that stretch of road in the first place?
(i know there's a bus stop there which could be one explanation)

Cantab. · 09-03-2008 11:13PM

projectmayhem wrote: »

the gards veered over to ensure they took a good potshot at the poor kid, but in fact it's probably just a tragic accident.

It is indeed a tragic accident. But you'll find there are very, very few ways out of the corner you find yourself in when you knock down a 7-year-old boy.

This is especially the case if you're a supposedly responsible garda who's received driver training.

The only excuse I can think of for the professional garda in question was that he was chasing some sort of armed psychopath and had to endanger the lives of others so as to have a chance of apprehending the psycho, thereby lessening the overall risk to the public.

Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

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