Engagement Ring - FACTS, not fiction

Charlies Angel · 18-06-2007 8:33am

Went engagement ring shopping at the weekend and found a fantastic ring...thing that turned us off was that it wasnt certified...should this bother me?

Fey! · 18-06-2007 9:47pm

Charlies Angel wrote:

Went engagement ring shopping at the weekend and found a fantastic ring...thing that turned us off was that it wasnt certified...should this bother me?

I wouldn't worry about that at all. Certification is used by some jewellers as a marketing tool to help sell diamonds. Some of them aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

My personal feeling on them is that if the person behind the counter is competent, then they'll know and be able to tell you from inspecting the diamond themselves everything that may be on a cert. The cert is no substitute for a competent jeweller.

I have seen people buy diamonds because they were certified, only to return home to find that the stone and the cert had no relation to each other. In other words, if you can't read the cert properly, then it's of no use to you.

Two other points on this; the first is that a "reputable" Dublin jeweller told one of my customers that a diamond wasn't a diamond if it didn't have a cert. This is, and always will be, absolute rubbish.

The second is that certificates and valuations are completely different things (there is a lot of confusion about this). Insurance companies don't give a jot about certificates; what they look for is a valuation or receipt from the shop to show the replacement market value of the ring.

In summation, if you saw a ring you liked and felt that you could trust the person selling it to you, then go for it. Forget all the claptrap about certs; it'll only serve to muddy the waters and make it more difficult for you to find your perfect ring.

Good luck.

wingnut · 23-06-2007 10:30am

Could anyone guesstimate how much a platinum set 1/2 carat marquise SI colour F/G with round cut (8 of them channel set totaling 1/2 carat) in the band should cost??

Fey! · 23-06-2007 1:35pm

Wingnut; if that's as en engagement ring, I would recommend that you try the ring with a wedding band before setting your heart on it. The reason for this is that, due to the shape of the marquise, it may not sit well with a wedding band.

It's not uncommon for people not to be able to get a band to sit with an unusual shaped engagement ring. My advice is ALWAYS try a band with ALL engagement rings you try, as it will also change the look of the engagement ring.

As for price, I haven't had a marquise in stock for a while, so it'll take some checking.

KnuckleSandwich · 15-08-2007 4:56pm

Hi Fey!
I found another thread with your posts in it, and then this sticky, all from Googlin' like crazy. I've joined this forum, due to your efforts & no-nonsense approach. Thanks for the breath of fresh-air in your efforts!

***

I'm pretty 'cluey' with most things, but had ZERO idea about the whole experience of doing this thing, so I thought I'd educate myself in my own time, without getting 'the injection' from a salesperson, who's interests are different to mine (mine being: Take my time, learn a lot, get EXACTLY what we're after).

Could you expand your info a-little please, as it feels (to a beginner) mostly down one path: Diamonds.

My girlfriend is naturally pretty, girl-nextdoor type, and doesn't fit the stereo-typical mould (I know, who does...). She rarely wears make-up (and very-little when she does), no jewellery, and one small silver (celtic-pattern) earing in each ear. Add to that, she (& I) have simple tastes, often opting for the subtle/humble option in each decision.

My Question:
What's a suitable (equally special) replacement for a diamond engagement ring?

White gold? Platinum?

A diamond engagement ring, and then wedding ring also is 'too-much' (AKA: Too busy. Not money-wise) for my GF's style. I'm happy to spend the cash, as it's a once-off of-course, but I think something more subtle will suit much-better.

We're a young Irish couple, and while we have money & appreciate the fine things in life, we're humble in the way we carry-ourselves.

**
Sorry for the novel - Just trying to paint the picture

Fey! · 16-08-2007 11:21am

Thanks for your comments!!!

From your description of your girlfriend, I'd say a plain and simple solitaire would be right. Down the road, a nice, simple wedding band would look well with it.

If her hand is a bit too wide for a plain solitaire, then I'd look toward a simple 3 stone with no fuss in the setting (solitaires don't suit everyones hands). Again, a simple wedding band or one with a few imbedded diamonds would look well.

I wouldn't worry unnecessarily about the white gold/platinum side of it; she doesn't sound like the type of person to whom it would make a life changing difference, and you'll probably pay a lot more for platinum when you don't really need to.

The best of luck with the search for the ring. I hope it goes well for you.

KnuckleSandwich · 17-08-2007 1:14am

Thanks for your quick reply

Guessing it all includes diamonds in engagement rings then? Can't give a band for wedding then, so it means 2 diamond rings (hardly subtle, oh-well).

The reference to plantinum/white-gold was that she doesn't wear gold, and something less 'yellow' would be a benefit I'm thinking.

If I could ask more questions please... Please forgive for being 'wierd', as none of my friends are engaged, and I've no-one 'secret' I can ask.

Q1: What about a man who wishes to proudly show he's engaged...?
ie: Can men have engagement rings/bands? Is it common??

Q2: A close-friend's mother runs a good-sized & 'reputable' jewellery store. Passing-on at cost, would her prices challenge one of these diamond places, walking-in off the street?

Q3: I read "A smaller stone paired with a thinner band helps emphasise the diamond and produces a delicate solitaire ring, perfect for slender fingers." Would you agree?

I'm thinking of a solitaire, princess-cut ("how original" he says

), white-gold or platinum.

I've been looking at different online stores, just to ballpark what I'm looking-at price-wise, and I'm already sh**ting my pants?! I obviously had NO appreciation for what diamond rings cost :eek: :eek: No-wonder diamonds are surrounded by such a 'buzz'. Rare = $$$

Will re-read ya guide a few-more times, and let it sink-in some more - I'd hate for you to repeat yourself, or waste time/effort, it's not fair.

Thanks-again. Most important decision of my life

Fey! · 17-08-2007 2:06pm

I'll try this bit by bit, so please forgive my rambling reply!

If she doesn't like gold (yellow), then platinum and white gold are your options. If your budget is about €2k, then I'd stick with white gold, and put more money into the diamond than the setting; she can get the ring rhodium plated every couple of years at little cost, making it look "new" each time.

(I am biased here; I don't subscribe to the "if it's white metal it HAS to be platinum" line of thought. If you see a nice ring and it happens to within budget and platinum, then great. Beyond that, I wouldn't look specifically for platinum.)

A1) Fellas, in my experience, don't normally wear an engagement ring, but some may get a gift from their significant other, such as a watch. Nothing that screams "I'm not single", though. Nothing stopping you getting a ring with a diamond in it for yourself, though; gents diamond set wedding bands are becoming popular (I'm not a big fan of them myself; I'm more traditional/conservative). Funnily enough, the nicest one I've seen had the diamond set on the inside where only the couple knew it was.

A2) If you're being offered a ring at cost, then you should be making a saving on it. The saving will be determined by the mark-up in the shop; contrary to popular beliefs, not all jewellery shops have obscene mark-ups on their stock. Bear in mind that if they're a friend, they'll guide you as best they can.

A3) It all depends on the hand; a very small diamond on a very big hand can always look like a very small diamond, whilst a small diamond on a small hand can look just right. Harsh, I know, but on a bigger hand I'd generally recommend something other than a plain solitaire.

RE: Princess cut; I generally recommend a round stone in an engagement ring, as if the wearer tires of the setting after a time, then they can get the stone reset. With a round stone there is more scope; a round stone can be set to look square, but a square stone can't be set to look round. Also, the round stone is, in my view, the more likely never to go out of fashion.

RE: 4C's; you can tie yourself up in knots when if comes to these; rule of thumb is that if the diamond is nice and bright, then it'll have a decent cut (if the light is reflecting/refracting wrong, then the stone will be dull; if there's a lot of inclusion in it, the light won't pass through and the stone will be dull); if you can't see any marks with the naked eye then the clarity will be fine; if you can't see a yellow tint then the colour will be fine, and the carat is the physical weight.

It's taken me a few attempts to get this far. I haven't had a chance to look at those websites.

If there's anything I haven't addressed, then just ask.

Real ale madrid · 22-10-2007 3:41pm

Great information - a Godsend for a fella like me - one more question? Would i make a saving if i bought an engagement ring in Antwerp in Belgium - i used to live near there for nearly a year - and there is virtually a whole street seeling Diamonds. - Good idea or am i better off buying here at home?

Fey! · 25-10-2007 10:48am

Best thing to do is compare like with like. To be honest, I don't know what prices there are like these days.

And at least if you have a problem with the ring, then you don't have too far to go to get it sorted.

Countryripple · 09-01-2008 11:06am

Hi guys, its getting close to ring time for me and my other half. We've been looking in lots of windows but not started going into the shops yet. What im wondering is, do the jewellers carry much more stock than what is in the windows? Only seen very little of what we might like to go for so far. So would they have a bigger selection inside the shops?

In Dublin by the way.

keyes · 10-01-2008 9:34pm

Countryripple wrote: »

Hi guys, its getting close to ring time for me and my other half. We've been looking in lots of windows but not started going into the shops yet. What im wondering is, do the jewellers carry much more stock than what is in the windows? Only seen very little of what we might like to go for so far. So would they have a bigger selection inside the shops?

In Dublin by the way.

yep, most shops will have way more than what's just in the windows, but it'll give you a general idea of the type of thing they do, what styles they might specialise in, etc.

Poncherello · 11-01-2008 3:22pm

solving wrote: »

Hi all,

Fey I sent you on a PM earlier with some specifics also......but open to all
I'm just back from NY seen some nice 1 - 1.50 carat diamonds with 10x loupe and GIA cert's etc....To make a long story short, I'm now going to explore Irish options.

Been to the usual Grafton st stores (very good experience and very nice diamond rings - price is the problem :eek:)

Has anyone got experiece dealing with diamond.ie and/or diamont.ie ?

What is the quality like ? Any reviewers out there ?

Solving......

Why would you explore Irish options after being in New York ??
The savings are ridiculous
absolute no brainer

Irishboy29 · 27-01-2008 11:11pm

In my experience sales people in jewelery shops aren't qualified to give their opinion on a diamond without a cert,

When I went shopping i asked about certification as I was spending a few thousand euro. I was told that the cert didn't really matter, of course it matters if you are spending that amount of money. A few sales people actually said oh isn't it lovely and sparkly when showing diamonds and could not answer questions about colour (D.E.F. e.t.c.) clarity, depth,Table, culet,floresence e.t.c

I ended up buying from blue nile and had it independantly appraised in Ireland by a jeweler in Dublin. Compared to what I bought the Diamons of similar cost in Ireland were muck. i.e high flouresence, dull and lifeless.

keyes · 28-01-2008 1:28pm

Irishboy29 wrote: »

In my experience sales people in jewelery shops aren't qualified to give their opinion on a diamond without a cert,

When I went shopping i asked about certification as I was spending a few thousand euro. I was told that the cert didn't reaaly matter, of course it matters if you are spending that amount of money. A few sales people actually said oh isn't it lovely and sparkly when showing diamonds and could not answer questions about colour (D.E.F. e.t.c.) clarity, depth,Table, culet,floresence e.t.c

I ended up buying from blue nile and had it independantly appraised in Ireland by a jeweler in Dublin. Compared to what I bought the Diamons of similar cost in Ireland were muck. i.e high flouresence, dull and lifeless.

certs don't matter if, and only if, the person telling you about the diamond is qualified and competent, and you trust them. the importance of certs is that an independent third party has looked at the diamond, and given an opinion. however, the validity of their opinion is reliant on their qualifications and competency. that is why it is important that the cert is from a reputable, high quality lab.

however, the most important thing, more important than any cert, is that the diamond looks good. it is possible (and very common), for a diamond to be good on paper, but not pleasant to the eye. first and foremost, judge a diamond with the naked eye. then, if it pleases you, analyse the cert.

if you only saw muck, then to be honest, you were looking in the wrong shops. and finally, it's an old chestnut, but if you compare VAT free prices with VAT-inclusive prices here, well, of course there'll be a difference.

tallaght01 · 28-01-2008 1:41pm

Presumably jewellers will have the cert available for inspection that shows that their diamonds aren't conflict diamonds?

I don't think I would buy one unless I could see the cert

keyes · 28-01-2008 1:50pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

Presumably jewellers will have the cert available for inspection that shows that their diamonds aren't conflict diamonds?

I don't think I would buy one unless I could see the cert

Absolutely. Any reputable jeweller should have a copy of their policy available for you to view.

Another option is an antique diamond, which will pre-date any of the conflict diamonds issue, as well as reducing the carbon footprint of the purchase.

Fey! · 28-01-2008 3:16pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

Presumably jewellers will have the cert available for inspection that shows that their diamonds aren't conflict diamonds?

I don't think I would buy one unless I could see the cert

Certs don't have any information pertaining to conflict stones; they only who the quality of the stone, not where they come from. Anyone who peddles the tale that they do is talking out of their rear end.

All diamonds have the same chemical and physical makeup, which means that if you get a 1.50ct D IF RBC Ex Ex Nil diamond from Sierra Leone beside a 1.50ct D IF RBC Ex Ex Nil diamond from Canada, even the best trained expert will not tell which is which.

Hollywood has a lot to answer for when it comes to myths about diamonds and people telling one stone from another with the naked eye!

The coverage a jeweller uses to ensure that their stock is conflict free is chain of supply, where they use only trustworthy sources who will gaurantee their stock. There is then an independent organisation to monitor this.

Irishboy29; as for your comment about Irish jewellers knowing nothing, it's interesting that you post this on a thread by an Irish jeweller giving advice to the buying public, which is also subscribed to by another jeweller (Keyes) who gives sound advice. And all this inside your first 4 posts.

It makes me wonder why either of us try to help people out on here, and answer all the PMs from people looking for more buying advice/trying to undo a mistake they've made, when all we get is rubbish from the likes of you.

Irishboy29 · 28-01-2008 6:12pm

I said that all sales people are not qualified to appraise a diamond as they have not been trained to do so. In my experience the sales person was just that- A sales person.

They could not answer questions on certification, characteristics of a good diamond. Some didn't know what flouresence was. some couldn't tell me the depth or table of the diamond in question because the diamond didn't have a cert.

Fey, you know well that there is what is termed excellent cuts that bring a diamond to life and not dull and lifeless. People should know what to ask for and you are telling them to trust a salesperson.

Don't get me wrong- when you eventually get to speak with the owner of the store or the jeweler then you get the answers you are looking for but you rarely find a salesperson that knows their stuff.

The stores in question are Irish stores that advertise heavily about their quality. When you know what questions to ask you find out that alot of these jewelers sell inferior diamonds at wildly inflated prices.

As for a jeweler telling people to trust their salesperson. Not all salespeople can be trusted as they have an interest in making a sale first and foremost. If they can sell inferior diamonds at inflated prices to an unsuspecting public then they're quids in.

The customer should know what questions to ask and if they're not happy with the answers they should go elsewhere.

And are you saying that somebody's opinion is invalid becuase of the amount of posts they've made. The arrogance of it.

keyes · 28-01-2008 8:25pm

Irishboy29 wrote: »

They could not answer questions on certification, characteristics of a good diamond. Some didn't know what flouresence was. some couldn't tell me the depth or table of the diamond in question because the diamond didn't have a cert.

you don't need a cert to measure depth percentages or average table diameters. you can do it very easily if you know how. i can tell you the depth to within 1% in 5 seconds with nothing more than an eyeglass. but i wonder, do you _really_ understand the importance of these things, or are you looking for a certain number that you read off a website? (many websites tell you, for example, to look for a 60% table, or something like that. that's no way to gauge a diamond.) it's not about telling you that a stone has x, y, or z proportions. a person who really understands diamonds will tell you the importance or otherwise of certain characteristics.

even the GIA say (and i'm paraphrasing here) that it's the relative interplay of various proportions that matters, not whether or not one specific proportion has a certain value. i once had a customer insist on a stone with a 60% table. they couldn't explain why, other than that they'd read in some website of unknown reliability that it was important. treat all advice of that nature with a pinch of salt.

Irishboy29 wrote: »

Fey, you know well that there is what is termed excellent cuts that bring a diamond to life and not dull and lifeless. People should know what to ask for and you are telling them to trust a salesperson.

"excellent cut" is a trademark, not an expression of the quality of the cut. again, referring to the GIA, they state that there is no such thing, or at least not in the manner you mean. the notion of excellent cut has its basis in the idea that the goal in diamond cutting is 100% light return. this is not exactly the case. beauty and light return are two different things.

100% light return gives lower levels of dispersion (fire). it concentrates solely on brilliance, which is only part of the beauty of the diamond. slight levels of asymmetry and a slightly smaller table increase fire, with a light loss of less than 0.5%, well below the level that the human eye can notice. the increase in fire is noticable, however. hence the popularity of asscher cuts and cushion cuts. (see tiffany's current range).

whether you consider this a good thing or a bad thing is up to the viewer, it's akin to preferring a particular style of music, or type of art. it's uniquely personal.

did you know that what is termed "excellent cut" changes from continent to continent, depending on what peoples there find attractive? a diamond is as much a piece of art as a piece of engineering. it's the fusion of nature and science that is so enthralling.

this is not to deny that some diamonds are dull and lifeless. that can be true. but a good shop would not even offer them.

Irishboy29 wrote: »

The stores in question are Irish stores that advertise heavily about their quality. When you know what questions to ask you find out that alot of these jewelers sell inferior diamonds at wildly inflated prices.

which questions are they, pray tell? you haven't said anything yet that anybody couldn't find out in ten minutes on the internet, or that i'd cover in the first ten minutes with a customer. you must be going into the wrong shops.

Irishboy29 wrote: »

As for a jeweler telling people to trust their salesperson. Not all salespeople can be trusted as they have an interest in making a sale first and foremost. If they can sell inferior diamonds at inflated prices to an unsuspecting public then they're quids in.

no. the goal for anybody with a grain of sense is to make a customer for life. it's like that line from glengarry glen ross (i think): "you don't sell a man one car; you sell him ten cars over the course of his life". risking it all for one quick deal? no, that's ludicrous.

Irishboy29 wrote: »

The customer should know what questions to ask and if they're not happy with the answers they should go elsewhere.

couldn't agree more, except to say that a decent shop will offer answers to questions that the customer hasn't asked, too.

Irishboy29 wrote: »

And are you saying that somebody's opinion is invalid becuase of the amount of posts they've made. The arrogance of it.

perhaps we should stick on topic.

Irishboy29 · 28-01-2008 8:51pm

That was my point about the answers from "Sales people".Most sales people i spoke to didn't know the answers to my questions. The sales person could not answer so that's why I had to do so much reasearch myself. I didn't realise their was so much to diamonds before I did the reasearch.

I sometimes felt as if I was an idiot for asking in some places where in fact the sales rep did not know about the products they were selling. they could not tell me why one diamond was more expensive than the next and could not tell me the difference between 2 diamonds. These were in highly reputible stores that pride themselves on being the people to go for to buy diamonds.

I know it is important but they seem to want people to pay out the money for what looks nice. This is important no doubt but when they can't explain the difference in price to my satisfaction this is what I have a problem with.

I'd be interested to know where your store is as you seem to know your stuff and it's refreshing to hear.

On the last point, Fey brought it up about my lack of posts so I was responding to that.

Banjo · 28-01-2008 9:08pm

I can see where he's coming from - I've spoken to a number of so-called Jewellers in Dublin who were on par with the floor staff at Dixons in terms of the level of knowledge they displayed. They asked what we were looking for, what sort of money we were looking to spend and then trot out a tray of rings that ranged between just outside and ludicrously far beyond our budget - presumably in the hope that once she got her eyes on a big sparkler, I'd have to dig a little deeper. That said, I also dealt with jewellers who actually listened, who explained all about the stone I was looking at, who stuck to the budget and let us see the maximum clarity, colour or size we might be able to get if we traded off against the other characteristics so we could make an informed decision.

Ultimately it's about where you go, it's not really fair to tar all jewellers with the same brush - regardless of which brush that may be. Personally I found the larger jewellers to be more pressured environments focussed on the sale. In this regard I think a small amount of internet knowledge is a very good thing. A good jeweller will be able to explain to your satisfaction why most of the figures are meaningless if you like the stone you're looking at and will be happy looking at it for the rest of your life, and how equally all the stats in the world won't save a stone that just doesn't do it for you.

@Irishboy - if you went into a jewellers and he had "Diamonds sold in career : 6" written on his head, would you trust his judgement? So why shouldn't people be wary of a poster with few posts under his belt coming steaming into the thread all guns blazing? It's not arrogance, it's common sense!

Irishboy29 · 28-01-2008 9:34pm

Guess i'll have to post a bit more- Believe it or not, I'm a long term visitor just not an active poster. I'm getting braver though as you probably noticed.:)

keyes · 29-01-2008 12:49am

Banjo wrote: »

I can see where he's coming from - I've spoken to a number of so-called Jewellers in Dublin who were on par with the floor staff at Dixons in terms of the level of knowledge they displayed. They asked what we were looking for, what sort of money we were looking to spend and then trot out a tray of rings that ranged between just outside and ludicrously far beyond our budget - presumably in the hope that once she got her eyes on a big sparkler, I'd have to dig a little deeper.

and yet people buy there? why?....

obviously there are people seduced by plush carpets, bright lights and fancy chocolates on the counter

it's silly, but there you go!

Banjo · 29-01-2008 1:00pm

That's the thing though, people do buy there. And they're not even fancy chocolates, they're cadbury's roses and all the good ones are gone. But then for some people, the money isn't an issue, time is the issue. When you go into one of these shops you're buttered up like a hot croissant, fed choccies and coffee and have tonnes of sparkly stones paraded past you. It saves you spending days traipsing around town peering through windows, running permutations of clarity and weight and cut through your head to maximize your value for money. It saves you memorizing facts and figures about diamonds that you only half understand. It saves you trying to justify flying abroad to save money, researching the price of platinum in sligo versus limerick. For someone who, unlike myself, is likely to make many diamond purchases throughout their life it builds a comfortable experience around the process. Who cares if you spend a couple of grand more than you need to? You can wrap it up in an hour and go home early in your canary yellow audi TT so your supermodel girlfriend can thank you extensively with mouth-based treats, and then next birthday or christmas you can do it all over again.

Even then, I'm being unfair - I've only ever bought one item from Dixons and I've only spoken to a handful of sales-focussed representative of large jewellers. For all I know I've just been unlucky. But I don't intend to find out that I'm right the hard way!

keyes · 29-01-2008 2:41pm

Banjo wrote: »

Who cares if you spend a couple of grand more than you need to?

fair enough, that's your call. but your supermodel girlfriend may be happier if, for the same budget, you can get something bigger or shinier. some people focus on style, some on substance. that's a free market at its finest.

Banjo wrote: »

For all I know I've just been unlucky. But I don't intend to find out that I'm right the hard way!

delegate! most girls love the thrill of the hunt, and telling her to go out and look and diamonds gets you mega brownie points! she'll happily look at every shop in dublin

Jules · 03-03-2008 3:19am

I need a bit of help, i have rather large hands and am fairly paranod about it, Fey has been great but wondering if anyone else has had experience with problems like this. I am dredding going and looking for rings. Also have a budget, and not sure what will look right on my hands, due to the problem of not being able to find one that fits. Ment to be a happy time but im just embarrassed.

ChocolateOrange · 03-03-2008 11:53am

I have quite big fingers as well, my ring is huge on almost everyone who trys it on. Some girls who try it on find it fits perfectly - and despite being paranoid about my big hands I never noticed that they had big hands too - it just goes to show that you are much more conscious of these things yourself. I found that a slightly chunkier band looked best as the narrow band only semed to emphasise my big fingers. Just make sure to try lots of styles on and don't be embarassed - jewellers will be well used to all size hands!

Jules · 03-03-2008 11:55am

im a z+4 ... don't even have a letter by its self for mine! And its not that i have fat fingers or anything, just big hands

keyes · 03-03-2008 3:44pm

Jules wrote: »

im a z+4 ... don't even have a letter by its self for mine! And its not that i have fat fingers or anything, just big hands

i've seen as big as z+10, so you're not alone....

i'd suggest a three stone ring with similar size diamonds. they tend to compliment a bigger hand. another possibility is a two stone twist, which works well too. unfortunately most shopst won'have one made up to that size already, but maybe they can open up the ring if there's one you really like.

if you want a solitaire, then you'll most likely need a big stone, otherwise it'll be lost on your hand.

go in and look around the shops, don't be worried about it. like you said, it really should be a happy day!

Engagement Ring - FACTS, not fiction

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