Racism and the Travelling Community

DublinWriter · 27-04-2007 08:37PM

InFront wrote:

Why, then, do Irish social norms not always defend Irish Travellers in the same regard?

I'm really torn apart on this issue.

Back when I was a teen in 1980-splash I used to do a bit of summer work in a breaker's yard, and we always had travellers come in with odds and ends.

They were always very decent, but I remember one particular traveller I made friends with. One day he had a particular engine and he thought another breaker close by was looking for it and could he use the office phone to check.

I said no problem, as the boss-man was away and handed him a copy of the Golden Pages and the phone. He laughed and got a bit embarrassed and asked me to look up the name of the breaker and could I call him for him and just pass the phone over. It was only then I realised the guy couldn't read or write.

This I did for him and that simple act almost made us blood-brothers. I don’t think a member of the ‘settled’ community ever showed him any such act of kindness. It was never so much as said, but any particular stroke or favour we could pull off for each other was done from then on in.

I remember Des Keogh really nailed it when he said "cross them and they will kill you, but do them a favour and they will kill for you"…and it's very true.

However, we Irish may not be totally simpatico with the jar, but to the Travellers, it's liquid dynamite. They remind me totally of the Native American Indians or Aborigine when it comes to how they interact with alcohol. That's their downfall, as it is also ours, but they're playing that particular DVD on fast forward while we are on regular play speed and listening to the Director’s commentary track at the same time.

Nevyn · 27-04-2007 08:41PM

psi wrote:

Actually, thats an assumption to be honest. I meet alot more settled people (or have met is more apt) so by and large, I've had more negative experiences with them. I've had one or two cases of travellers acting aggressive but by and large it's posturing and it was all reasoned out. If I was to divide my encounters with the public (and remember, I see people at just about their worst) into broad demographs, travellers would most likely be middling in the table of neg/pos experiences.

I've had settled people threathen me with knives to get access to drugs. What exactly is your point?

Clearly you have the rational to do this most people don't and there negative encounters with those the consider to be 'different' will stand out more in thier minds.

The premise of this thread as set out by the OP was about socitey attitude towards this socail grouping and ergo the generisations about which my post was in context.

Hagar · 27-04-2007 08:42PM

Thaedydal wrote:

Won't be much of a picture if it is floppy esp if you are going to but it beside a 5 and 1/2 inch floppy disc and he uses a 3 3/4.

Technically a floppy is 8 inches in diameter, the others are mini and micro floppy respectively. God bless Photoshop I say.;) Hitches up pants, God it's cold in here. That's my excuse.:D

Nods at InFront.

I don't think it's racism though, it would be if it applied to people of a different race but they're not, they're us. It is discriminatory though.

DublinWriter · 27-04-2007 08:48PM

Thaedydal wrote:

They do not have a language.
Cant is not a language no more then any cryptotgphy code.
Polari is closer to being a language then traveler cant an you don't see homosexuals being classed as a seperate race.

Maybe not a language, but it's a dialect. Gannon is a dialect as it uses advanced forms of verbal conjugation.

Polari is only slang as it is just concerned primarily with noun substitution. The half-dozen verbs used in Polari are basically derived from Greek and Pig-Latin.

Infection_ · 27-04-2007 08:49PM

Racism is such a hard thing to define these days. I can see why a lot of Irish people have less than politically correct views concerning immigrants (ie Eastern Europeans) today. As someone stated, we were nevel a colonial power and don't owe anyone, anything, yet we still get swarms of immigrants. It's not that Irish people won't do the jobs, its that the Easterns will work for less, and don't know their rights. Quite honestly, disliking this isn't racism, is looking out for their own nation and people. Yet in today's politically correct world, thinking like this is classed as 100% racism. In Britian and France, as both were obviously large colonial powers, as someone else mentioned, their case with immigration is different, they in a way owe something to their ex colonies, and they have a cultural link.

Nevyn · 27-04-2007 08:51PM

So those who speak Connemara Irish then could be in the running to be considered a 'race' ?

Hagar · 27-04-2007 08:59PM

Sea, is Eireannigh iad.

InFront · 27-04-2007 09:00PM

Thaedydal wrote:

Right then list their ethnic markers.

They have their own language, they are nomads, they have a unique cultural history as distinct from mainstream Irish history. I understand that some people might not see that, but then not everyone appreciates that Irish people are any different to British people either.
As for racism, it isn't always about races anyway. UN Definition

"racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cerd.htm

Nevyn · 27-04-2007 09:18PM

Ethnic markers are derived from:

1. Common ancestral origin
2. race or physical characteristics
3. similar culture or customs
4. language
5. religion
6. common values or ethos
7. sense of peoplehood
8. Gemeinschaft relations

1 They are irish and come from the same melting pot as the rest of us this being the land of invasions.

2 They don't have any traits which are not amoung the rest of the population
unlike those that are specfic to certain groups ie cycal cell.

3 They may have thier own customes but there are other communities that have thier own be it turf related or being an islander.

4 This I covered already it is speaking in code rather then a naturally developing language. There are other comunnitues that have thier own turns or phrase or saying and again colloquialisms not a language.

5 Irish/celtic catholic, shock horror surprise.

6 it is custom but it varies from grouping to grouping like other communities.

7 'Them and us' certianly but we still are in many ways a tribal nation and this can be seen in Gaa sports and the who are you and where are you're people from which still gets asked today.

8 yes but no more then communities other then thier's self regulated
and it is only with the recent setting up of pavi point that there is an authoirty and a spokes person.

in short they don't qualify for a differnt race or ethincity.
Granted they have thier own culture so do the Islanders and parts of my own family in Kerry but that does not make them that special.

Where thier culture intfers with other peoples rights including a quite life then
that is not acceptible.

Hagar wrote:

Technically a floppy is 8 inches in diameter, the others are mini and micro floppy respectively. God bless Photoshop I say.;)

You're old. :P

Hagar wrote:

Hitches up pants, God it's cold in here. That's my excuse.:D

Oh was that cause of the hoarefrost and here I was thinking it was greyed pubes.

homah_7ft · 27-04-2007 11:32PM

I'm sorry but I would disagree with your analysis Thaedyal. Would you accept that genetically they are an isolate from the general Irish poplation for instance?

Nevyn · 27-04-2007 11:34PM

No more then the Islanders are.

homah_7ft · 27-04-2007 11:37PM

This could get way off topic I suppose. I better stop. I'll just say I agree with the OP in that an exception is often made for discrimination against travellers.

mikemac · 27-04-2007 11:45PM

Have you ever been called a "buffer"? I have.

Hmmm...., travellers calling a settled person a derogatory generic name that they can apply to all settled people. This must mean the travellers who called me a buffer are racists.

I assuming the posters know what a buffer is.

homah_7ft · 28-04-2007 12:07AM

Did you think it was racist?

mikemac · 28-04-2007 12:16AM

homah_7ft wrote:

Did you think it was racist?

Not at all, wasn't bothered. But double standards don't you think? Settled people are called buffers but it 100% racist to even mention the word knacker

karen3212 · 28-04-2007 12:49AM

I think the general attitude to travellers in Ireland is very similar to the general attitued of Australians towards Aborigines.
When I've asked a few Aussies about the Aborigines say they are lazy drunkards, getting money from the state and always taking. Whites in Aus also laugh about how you wouldn't want to meet them after they've been drinking. They also seem to think that what they are saying is fact and true, therefore is not racist, as in everytime they'd encountered an Aborigine this truth had been borne out. They also see the Aborigine as a PROBLEM to be solved.
I would say that generally in Ireland most people I've heard speak about travellers in a bad way also seem to think it is true, and if something is true then it is not a generalization, not racist in their minds. People really think it is just a fact that travellers are below the Irish, I don't really understand why people think it is a fact though. Lots of travellers in our area are o'briens, o'connors, connors, etc same names of settled people, how could they be a different to the Irish and have the same names?

humbert · 28-04-2007 12:55AM

There is a social acceptance of racism toward travellers that isn't the case for other minorities. I was going to use the word prejudice instead of racism but with travellers the root of the problem isn't prejudice, it's experience. A large percentage of the people that have dealt with travellers have had bad experiences.

They have a tendency to be violent and in the area they inhabit, which is often common ground for the local community, are very dirty. It's unfortunate, they're a very old part of Irish tradition, but if they don't treat the settled community with respect they can't very well complain that they don't receive it in return.

I will add that it's the travellers that cause trouble that are conspicuous and the ones that don't are unnoticed and this could be a factor but I don't think it's an adequate explanation to dismiss the negative attitude toward them.

Rereading that, it seems like a very condemning post and I don't feel any contempt toward them, I just can't think of anything particularly redeeming about them.

karen3212 · 28-04-2007 01:06AM

humbert wrote:

There is a social acceptance of racism toward travellers that isn't the case for other minorities. I was going to use the word prejudice instead of racism but with travellers the root of the problem isn't prejudice, it's experience. A large percentage of the people that have dealt with travellers have had bad experiences.

They have a tendency to be violent and in the area they inhabit, which is often common ground for the local community, are very dirty. It's unfortunate, they're a very old part of Irish tradition, but if they don't treat the settled community with respect they can't very well complain that they don't receive it in return.

I will add that it's the travellers that cause trouble that are conspicuous and the ones that don't are unnoticed and this could be a factor but I don't think it's an adequate explanation to dismiss the negative attitude toward them.

Rereading that, it seems like a very condemning post and I don't feel any contempt toward them, I just can't think of anything particularly redeeming about them.

Do you think that some people were saying the same thing about the Irish not so long ago?

simu · 28-04-2007 01:19AM

InFront wrote:

Would people agree that racism against travellers is commonly seen as being socially acceptable? If so, why do you think this is the case?
I think it is very common, and I think that there will come a time when this prejudice will be no more acceptable than prejudice against Africans, Jews, Native Americans or Native Australians, on grounds of their ethnicity.

A fair few people seem to have a few random bad-experience-with-a-traveller-shoot-them-all story they pull out of their conversational hat every so often. They're not 100% socially acceptable though, certainly not in all social situations, but maybe people who are inclined to whinge about ethnic groups are more likely to have picked up an anecdote about travellers because they've been here longer.

Hobbes · 28-04-2007 08:11AM

Thaedydal wrote:

Right then list thier ethic markers.

List yours.

Nevyn · 28-04-2007 11:29AM

I am not trying assert that I am a different ethicnicty so I don't see the point of that.

homah_7ft · 28-04-2007 12:27PM

I think the ethnic thing could take us off topic again. It was interesting to hear about the poster being called, "A Buffer". I don't think it's right if it is a derogatory term rather than just a slang word. On the other hand I think the power relationship is important when it comes to prejudice. Who is likely to be interviewing who for a job?

Dontico · 28-04-2007 06:25PM

At first I was annoyed at this thread. Then relieved to see I'm not the only one who hates travelers.

No it is not social acceptable to hate travelers. I cant given out for my opinion all the time in college.

Acccept thier culture? why dont they accept mine? My clean, law obiding one?

I will list reasons why I hate travelers, I widh them to be removed from this island.

They camp out on other peoples land and the Gardaí are doing nothing about it. To my thats tresspassing. Criminal.
They dont educate thier children, so they raise them to be criminals like them. Crminal.
They promote incest. Should be criminal.
They move around alot. That makes them hard to track. Which mean when they get arrested for assualt or other crimes, they can give false names and addresses, and get away scott free. Criminal
I've been assault by travelers a few times.Unable to get them charged. Once in my own home. I just found him there. Criminal.
They consider themselves better than us and they think they own the place. We foaught long and hard to kick the brits out, I dont know why we should tolerate them if we didnt tolerate oppression.

At least letting Fine Gael protect our homes and let us electronically track criminals will help our cause against the travelers.

Is there any organisation that promotes the elimination of the traveler community?
We should remove the last scars of Cromwell.
After we deal with this issue I would imagine thier would be uproar from the socialist community. That has to be dealt with too.

And no its not a race. Its a culture. There is a difference. The gays have thier own culture, but I dont have a problem with them.

Captain Trips · 28-04-2007 06:46PM

It's quite different to the Native Americans and Aboriginal people in the US and Australia basically because of the crucial fact that the non-travellers *are* the natives, unlike the other situations.

Dontico · 28-04-2007 06:55PM

Captain Trips wrote:

It's quite different to the Native Americans and Aboriginal people in the US and Australia basically because of the crucial fact that the non-travellers *are* the natives, unlike the other situations.

Oh this guy reminded me to add.

Aborigional americans and Austrailians were not used to our form of alcohol. Travelers have been drinking as long as we have.

philologos · 29-04-2007 04:31PM

silverharp wrote:

For me it comes down to respect, as a group I respect the Eastern Europeans for instance that have come here cos on average they want to improve themselves in some manner. Looking at the travellers as a group I see their lifestyle as deeply dysfunctional, if they were independent and didn’t want to be part of the system, that’s cool but their very existence depends on handouts from taxpayer and their respect for the law seems to be tenuous at best.

Totally agree. The Eastern Europeans make a positive contribution to our economy and are very industrious from what I have seen. I don't think I could say the same about travellers, although there could be many industrious travellers I just haven't seen any as yet.

Hobbes · 29-04-2007 05:13PM

Thaedydal wrote:

I am not trying assert that I am a different ethicnicty so I don't see the point of that.

You are though. Travellers are Irish as well.

What if we discriminated again Cork people? Would that be acceptable?

1. They camp out on other peoples land and the Gardaí are doing nothing about it. To my thats tresspassing. Criminal.

Actually a very very small percentage of Travellers actually are illegally halting.

2. They dont educate thier children, so they raise them to be criminals like them. Crminal.

3. They promote incest. Should be criminal.

It would be great if you could actually back that up with some proof. I suspect you can't.

4. They move around alot. That makes them hard to track. Which mean when they get arrested for assualt or other crimes, they can give false names and addresses, and get away scott free. Criminal

How is that different then a normal person giving a false name and address? For the record though Travellers fall into three areas of what you are suggesting.

1. Settled = Fixed abode.
2. Legally settled = Fixed abode.
3. Illegally settled = See earlier comment.

5. I've been assault by travelers a few times.

I've been mugged three times in my life by Irish people. Does that mean all Irish are criminals?

They consider themselves better than us

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion. They had some traveller group (some new newspaper) on the radio. They mentioned that the majority of travellers do not get any hassle at all until it is found out they are actually a travaller and then it may as well be black in Alabama in the 50's. One of them mentioned her mother has never committed a crime in her life but is followed from shop to stop everytime she goes out.

How would you feel about that if it was your mother and the only reason they were doing it is because someone in your neighbourhood stole from the shop?

We had this kind of guilty by association years ago for Irish people and where they lived. We have (for the most part) grown out of it. Shame we can't of this too.

DublinWriter · 29-04-2007 05:18PM

Jakkass wrote:

Totally agree. The Eastern Europeans make a positive contribution to our economy and are very industrious from what I have seen. I don't think I could say the same about travellers, although there could be many industrious travellers I just haven't seen any as yet.

That's right!, I keep forgetting we're not a society anymore, we're really an economy.

So, using your argument, where does that place single-mothers claiming state welfare?

Newaglish · 29-04-2007 05:20PM

I just find it very hard to accept the idea of travellers in any way being any sort of "ethnic minority". The reason for this is that they are exactly the same as settled Irish people. They come from the same country, speak the same language (albeit a dialect has emerged, likely from a lack of mainstream education), hold the same religion and all of that.

The only difference really is that:

1) They move about in caravans
2) They have a reputation for crime
3) They have a reputation for claiming a high levels of benefits

And I just don't think that entitles you to be an "ethnic minority". Now, why does it matter if they qualify as an ethnic minority? Well, if it's generally accepted that they are, then it suddenly becomes taboo to criticise them in any way.

All that aside, why is it that people really have problems with them? The basic idea behind being a traveller is that you move around, travel the country, meet people and all of that. Now, not a single person has voiced a concern about this. Nobody has said "Damn, why can't they just stay in one place? It's just not right."

The real issues people have are the fact that they are known to be more likely to commit crimes (particularly theft & violent crimes), likely to claim benefits (particularly unemployment) and the fact that wherever they stop is left in an absolute disgrace once they leave.

Now can someone really argue that this is not the case? I know it sounds generalist and ignorant to brand a whole set of people with the same characteristics and no, I don't have statistics to hand, but sometimes you really do just have to go with the anecdotal evidence.

Newaglish · 29-04-2007 05:35PM

DublinWriter wrote:

That's right!, I keep forgetting we're not a society anymore, we're really an economy.

So, using your argument, where does that place single-mothers claiming state welfare?

I think you will actually find most people are not-too-impressed with your average person living off benefits.

Having said that, there is a difference between:

A single mother living off benefits and

A mother, her husband and their 12 grown up children, living off benefits.

Racism and the Travelling Community

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