Well, that's a kick in my careers teeth!

johnnyskeleton · 16-04-2007 10:41PM

Mama_Julia wrote:

all outgoings, no income.

But there are incomes, you are just not accepting them as such

When I said someone at the Irish Bar I didn't mean someone who is well-established at the Bar and has no financial worries (e.g. the Chairman of the Bar Council!).

It seems to me you should get your sister online.

Some judges' children do become barristers over here - IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH. They get work IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH.

You won't get very far at the Irish Bar unless you are good enough - no matter how well conected you are. This if for the same reasons as are in England.

I just wondered where you are coming from because it seems from your inability to accept any of the merits of the English system or the drawbacks of the Irish system, both of which seem so clear to me, that you have an agenda.

At the risk of waving a red flag here, you likewise seem to have an inability to accept any of the merits of the Irish system or the drawbacks of the English system, both of which seem so clear to me. I do accept some of the merits of the English system (such as being paid during pupillage), and I also accept some of the drawbacks of the Irish bar, but I don't accept that the English system is better than the Irish one, nor do I accept the way in which you have presented them in comparison.

But in any case I would never stoop to suggesting that you have an ulterior motive for disagreeing with me. This is because:

a) this is a chatroom not a recruitment board,
b) if my view is wrong and yours is right (or vice versa), people won't believe me (or vice versa).

What sort of agenda do you think I have? I started out by asserting that what you suggest about the Irish bar in comparison to the English bar is not a fair representation. It is what I believe. What do you think I could get out of lying?

my sister is 2 years out of King's Inns and already she knows that a good 40 people have dropped out (of a class of 120).

2 years out as in she is in her second year devilling? Are all the 40/120 people from the same class, started at the same time, and dropped out at the end of (or before) second year?

Mama_Julia · 16-04-2007 11:24PM

johnnyskeleton wrote:

But there are incomes, you are just not accepting them as such

Not in your first two years...then very little for the next few years.

It seems to me you should get your sister online.

She's too busy working all the hours God sends trying to pay her bills and her childcare fees to be on an internet forum.

You won't get very far at the Irish Bar unless you are good enough - no matter how well conected you are. This if for the same reasons as are in England.

Debatable - but in any case there are many very good people in Ireland, and it's connections that decides who gets the headstart and who doesn't. And that headstart can be make or break.

At the risk of waving a red flag here, you likewise seem to have an inability to accept any of the merits of the Irish system or the drawbacks of the English system, both of which seem so clear to me. I do accept some of the merits of the English system (such as being paid during pupillage), and I also accept some of the drawbacks of the Irish bar, but I don't accept that the English system is better than the Irish one, nor do I accept the way in which you have presented them in comparison.

True, but I'm certainly not alone. My decision to emigrate was not exactly made lightly but on extensive consultation I couldn't find a single trainee barrister in either jurisdiction who thought the Irish trainee system was better, and indeed others were hard-pushed to find any merits in it relative to the English system.

But in any case I would never stoop to suggesting that you have an ulterior motive for disagreeing with me. This is because:

a) this is a chatroom not a recruitment board,
b) if my view is wrong and yours is right (or vice versa), people won't believe me (or vice versa).

What sort of agenda do you think I have? I started out by asserting that what you suggest about the Irish bar in comparison to the English bar is not a fair representation. It is what I believe. What do you think I could get out of lying?

I don't know! It's just that I can't see how anyone could actually hold the view that the Irish system is better, and none of your arguments have gone any way to convincing me otherwise! I'm just looking for some explanation of your views!

I like that "I would never stoop" by the way - a delightful attempt to attain the moral high ground. You're not "waving a red flag" - I'm made of sterner stuff than to get riled that easily!

2 years out as in she is in her second year devilling? Are all the 40/120 people from the same class, started at the same time, and dropped out at the end of (or before) second year?

Yes, yes, mostly and yes!

morbo · 17-04-2007 11:09AM

First off, 15% is the figure estimated by the Bar Council of Ireland and the Competition Authority as the official drop-out rate for barristers in their first 5 years of practice. They consider 15% to be a very high number. Perhaps your sister just got into the Kings Inn on a slow year when there was a lack of highly motivated, highly intelligent people applying? (And for the love of God, that’s not a dig at your sister! I don’t know her, or you, but I’m sure you are fantastically intelligent, lovely people. The last thing I need is to make more enemies on this forum! I’m a nice guy, I swear! I’m just from the North Side of Cork City, so I’ a bit sarcastic, and most people think I’m being rude. Well, that’s enough of that rant.)

Second, there are advantages and pitfall to either jurisdictions method of becoming a barrister. You will obviously feel an affinity for the route you chose to take, and you’ll want to defend it at all costs, it’s only natural. I am very seriously interested in being a barrister now. The idea of going through the English system is becoming appealing. Let’s face it; people tend to view the Irish legal profession (for barristers) as a rat race in comparison with the English one.

Can you tell me how the training differs from the Irish system? Which Inn did you join? Is it seriously hard to find a Master? How much did it cost to do your training? Where did you do your BVC? Will the fact that I will be 26 (I did my undergrad in computer science. I have a B.Sc., and I’m doing law as a postgrad) when I graduate make it more difficult for me? I’ve heard that the Masters generally prefer to take on younger Pupils.

Finally, are you interested in taking on a Pupil? (That was meant as a joke when I started writing it, but it sort of became half-serious by the time I finished it…) But as we are talking about nepotism and all that, do established Irish professionals practicing at the Bar in England tend to take care of the fresh-off-the-boat lot? (Which I guess would be jingoism rather than nepotism?)

One last side note, if you are an established barrister in say, London, and you wished to do an equivalency exam to become a barrister in Ireland, would it be worth it? Or would you basically have to build a reputation here from scratch? I suppose you could practice in both locations (if you took a reduced case load in London) for awhile to ease the transition.

Mama_Julia · 17-04-2007 12:18PM

morbo wrote:

First off, 15% is the figure estimated by the Bar Council of Ireland and the Competition Authority as the official drop-out rate for barristers in their first 5 years of practice. They consider 15% to be a very high number. Perhaps your sister just got into the Kings Inn on a slow year when there was a lack of highly motivated, highly intelligent people applying? (And for the love of God, that’s not a dig at your sister! I don’t know her, or you, but I’m sure you are fantastically intelligent, lovely people. The last thing I need is to make more enemies on this forum! I’m a nice guy, I swear! I’m just from the North Side of Cork City, so I’ a bit sarcastic, and most people think I’m being rude. Well, that’s enough of that rant.)

Second, there are advantages and pitfall to either jurisdictions method of becoming a barrister. You will obviously feel an affinity for the route you chose to take, and you’ll want to defend it at all costs, it’s only natural. I am very seriously interested in being a barrister now. The idea of going through the English system is becoming appealing. Let’s face it; people tend to view the Irish legal profession (for barristers) as a rat race in comparison with the English one.

Can you tell me how the training differs from the Irish system? Which Inn did you join? Is it seriously hard to find a Master? How much did it cost to do your training? Where did you do your BVC? Will the fact that I will be 26 (I did my undergrad in computer science. I have a B.Sc., and I’m doing law as a postgrad) when I graduate make it more difficult for me? I’ve heard that the Masters generally prefer to take on younger Pupils.

Finally, are you interested in taking on a Pupil? (That was meant as a joke when I started writing it, but it sort of became half-serious by the time I finished it…) But as we are talking about nepotism and all that, do established Irish professionals practicing at the Bar in England tend to take care of the fresh-off-the-boat lot? (Which I guess would be jingoism rather than nepotism?)

One last side note, if you are an established barrister in say, London, and you wished to do an equivalency exam to become a barrister in Ireland, would it be worth it? Or would you basically have to build a reputation here from scratch? I suppose you could practice in both locations (if you took a reduced case load in London) for awhile to ease the transition.

Hmm, re my affinity with my route and my willingness to defend it "at all costs", in fact it was in attempting to defend the Irish system to the English people I met here while doing my master's that made me decide to stay as I simply didn't have a leg to stand on. I even successfully sat the King's Inns entrance exams (I was granted deferred entry on account of my master's). And I am staunchly nationalist - if I could find a basis to defend the Irish system that accords with my beliefs/sense of logic I would!

The only "pitfall", which I don't view as such, is that people who are weak don't get in, full stop, whereas weaker people get a chance to have a go in Ireland. But I am a believer in meritocracy, and if everyone got in to the English Bar it wouldn't be as good for those of us who do get in. I do actually have "links" in Ireland but I really didn't want my career to be based on the people I know rather than my abilities.

It's not quite as simple as "finding a master". You apply to chambers of barristers in areas of law that interest you. If they take you on, they pay you (often, and in my case, extremely generously) and they take charge of your training - you will usually have 1-3 pupil masters, all based at the chambers, but you may accompany or do work for other members of chambers if for example your pupil master has nothing that would be useful for you to do on a particular day.

So basically it is very difficult for any nepotism to occur in that chambers (maybe 40 barristers) decides who to take on, not one guy your dad knows from golf. And furthermore chambers reputation stands to gain or lose from who they take on so they will want to take on the best available. 26 is not old to join the English Bar, I would say 24-25 is about the average age anyway but in any case chambers tend to value life experience and some chambers pretty much refuse all 22-year-olds!

The training course is the BVC which is similar to King's Inns (King's Inns revamped course is actually based directly on the English BVC). However as there are several different providers, unlike in Ireland, there is more pressure to keep the standards up. The cost is £8,000-£12,000 depending where you go - if you are good enough you should get an Inns scholarship towards this. Similarly, as there are four Inns of Court they must each endeavour to make themselves extra welcoming and helpful in order to ensure that people join them. I know so many people for whom King's Inns left a bitter taste in their mouths as an establishment.

As for your last question - to be honest I don't really know about that myself and would be interested to find out. I would like to leave my options open re returning to Ireland in the future though for the foreseeable future I am happy where I am. I think I would have to take an enormous pay cut should I decide to move back though, and I guess I would have to start from scratch building my reputation to some degree, though presumably it would take less time.

dats_right · 17-04-2007 12:19PM

As an apprentice solicitor, I am perhaps not best placed to answer questions on the barrister side of the profession. But from my admittedly limited knowledge of how the England & Wales system operates; I am lead to understand that finding a pupillage is only part of the battle. Because, as I understand things, upon completion of one's pupillage one is faced with the unenviable task of finding a tenancy. I have read that one's chances of securing a tenancy can be as low as 1 in 3. [a good and humorous book that I would recommend describing the whole process is; My Brief Career: The Trials of a Young Lawyer by Harry Mount] for anybody who is interested.

So there are a lot of things that one has to consider before they embark upon a career at the bar in either jurisdiction.Anyway, here are a few useful websites for anybody who is considering the England & Wales bar as an option.

http://www.lawcareers.net/

http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/trainingandeducation/

www.venables.co.uk

morbo · 17-04-2007 01:20PM

About the idea of defending your chosen route, I just mean that you develop a brand loyalty. I worked in Roche’s Stores in Cork when I was 16. I still refuse to shop in Dunnes Stores, and still hold on to the ideal that Roche’s treat their employees better and such. But then again, there are people that worked in Dunnes that believe it to be better than Roche’s. It’s as simple as that. There are always going to be people saying that one system is better than the other based on their personal experience. Of course you’re a patriotic Irish man, as am I. And I too am willing to put up with ‘them across the water’ in order to enjoy a good career.

Getting a Master in England can be quite difficult. Once you complete your Pupillage, there are no guarantees that you will find a chamber willing to take you on. Once you find a chamber, you still have to build up your own reputation. This is highlighted throughout the information given out by the Bar Council of England & Wales, and others. Granted, this is does seem a better way to do it than the Irish way of; “Well, it was good to have you as a Devil for the last 2 years, but off you go now. It’s time to make it on your own. And remember, if you take any cases away from me, I’ll see to it that nobody deals with you in the future!”

I feel the same about making it on the basis of my ability. I don’t want people saying; “How’d he get that job?” – “Well, his father is friends with the owner!” I’d prefer the answer to be, “Because he’s an f***ing genius!”

All in all, the money expended in becoming a barrister in either Kings Inn or through one of the BVC schools seems to be on par. Though, there seems to be a quicker return in the English system.

You never answered my questions though. Which Inn did you join? Do some Inns have a better reputation than others? What area of law to you practice in? Where did you do your BVC? Which is the best BVC School?

Mama_Julia · 17-04-2007 01:38PM

morbo wrote:

About the idea of defending your chosen route, I just mean that you develop a brand loyalty. I worked in Roche’s Stores in Cork when I was 16. I still refuse to shop in Dunnes Stores, and still hold on to the ideal that Roche’s treat their employees better and such. But then again, there are people that worked in Dunnes that believe it to be better than Roche’s. It’s as simple as that. There are always going to be people saying that one system is better than the other based on their personal experience. Of course you’re a patriotic Irish man, as am I. And I too am willing to put up with ‘them across the water’ in order to enjoy a good career.

Getting a Master in England can be quite difficult. Once you complete your Pupillage, there are no guarantees that you will find a chamber willing to take you on. Once you find a chamber, you still have to build up your own reputation. This is highlighted throughout the information given out by the Bar Council of England & Wales, and others. Granted, this is does seem a better way to do it than the Irish way of; “Well, it was good to have you as a Devil for the last 2 years, but off you go now. It’s time to make it on your own. And remember, if you take any cases away from me, I’ll see to it that nobody deals with you in the future!”

I feel the same about making it on the basis of my ability. I don’t want people saying; “How’d he get that job?” – “Well, his father is friends with the owner!” I’d prefer the answer to be, “Because he’s an f***ing genius!”

All in all, the money expended in becoming a barrister in either Kings Inn or through one of the BVC schools seems to be on par. Though, there seems to be a quicker return in the English system.

You never answered my questions though. Which Inn did you join? Do some Inns have a better reputation than others? What area of law to you practice in? Where did you do your BVC? Which is the best BVC School?

Hmm, in relation to the post above you can I just say yes, you are not very qualified to join the debate :rolleyes: ! Basically about 500 people get pupillage and about 500 people get tenancy after that. It is widely acknowledged that the problem is getting pupillage, not tenancy - certainly, in some chambers there may be a 1 in 3 chance of getting taken on as a tenant IN THAT CHAMBERS - but once you have done your pupillage you are highly likely to get taken on by another chambers, as first of all you can't be THAT bad or you wouldn't have got pupillage (ok, if you're really **** you may get nowhere) and secondly, another chambers has paid for your training and you are arriving ready to go! Most, if not all chambers, make a special effort to find room at other chambers for those they don't take on (known as "third six" pupillages). You have to build up your reputation in that if you're **** people will learn - but you do have people (clerks) whose job it is to get you the work in the first place, if you screw up you have only yourself to blame.

I think the whole reason why few Irish people do it over here is that it is very difficult to get a pupillage. But once you have one and you're prepared to work hard you are pretty much sucking diesel unless you're ****.

To be honest I dodged your questions as I do not want to be identifiable to anyone who might come across this, though admittedly I am probably being pretty paranoid:) The Inns have different reputations for different things - e.g. Middle is good for Debating, Lincoln's is international, Inner is sociable, Gray's is cosy - I'm at Middle which I think is the best but everyone thinks theirs is the best:) I'm in civil law and I did my BVC at ICSL in London but nobody really cares where you do it. ICSL is the oldest school and BPP is meant to be the most hardcore.

A quicker return? You can say that again. The training wages available here make my friends at the Irish Bar sick.

morbo · 17-04-2007 03:13PM

Firstly, I started this thread to get information about the legal profession, so this is MY debate. I shall allow you to join in. I’m kind that way. :rolleyes:

I know all lawyers are paranoid about being identified, but if you don’t really want to post an answer on the thread, just send me a PM. I have asked some quite simple questions in this thread that I have received extremely vague lawyer answers to. It’s quite funny, actually.

I am doing my FYP on international law. Specifically the development of jurisprudence of DSU’s of the panels of the WTO. So maybe Lincolns Inn would be best for me, if I choose to go to London.

At the moment, even though I won’t be finished my LL.B. until 2008, I’m trying to decide where I want to do a Masters. Should I go to England to get a grasp of English law? Or should I go to Trinity, or EUI Florence, just to get a recognised name behind me? I know I’ll get into pretty much any college I apply to (apart from one of the Oxbridge colleges), so it’s all about the ‘brand value’ of the University that’s backing it up.

This is all really good info though, keep it coming. Thanks.

Also, are there entrance exams to do the BVC like there is to get into the Kings Inn? It’s not really clear from the different sites I’ve been checking out.

Edit: Never mind the last question. Found the answer on Wikipedia. There are none!

johnnyskeleton · 17-04-2007 09:50PM

I apologise for my part in the length of this thread, but I somehow feel compelled to make it even longer.

Mama_Julia wrote:

Not in your first two years...then very little for the next few years.

You are asserting things as true, but when I assert something to be true, you ignore it. Then you say that it is I who is ignoring your post. I will say it again - you can make an income in your first few years - if you get one JR, one trial on indictment or one junior brief in the HC/SC, you will make more money than your fees and your other practise expenses. You won't make much but it is an income, however inferior it may seem to you.

My decision to emigrate was not exactly made lightly but on extensive consultation I couldn't find a single trainee barrister in either jurisdiction who thought the Irish trainee system was better, and indeed others were hard-pushed to find any merits in it relative to the English system.

It is all very well for you to say and believe these things, but it is not relevant to everyone else. It is called hearsay evidence, and it is not very reliable. If you want to further this debate, state your reasons, defend your reasons, and if you want to cite authorities, get them from the internet. Do you not understand that by retreating into this line of argument (i.e. "well so-and-so, who you don't know, disagrees with you") you are neither advancing your argument nor allowing anyone else to challenge it?

I don't know! It's just that I can't see how anyone could actually hold the view that the Irish system is better, and none of your arguments have gone any way to convincing me otherwise! I'm just looking for some explanation of your views!

I like that "I would never stoop" by the way - a delightful attempt to attain the moral high ground. You're not "waving a red flag" - I'm made of sterner stuff than to get riled that easily!

Again, you are not saying why they don't convince you, only that they don't. I don't know why you do this, but it seems to me that you can't attack the argument so you attack the man(or woman as it may be).

In re:
"2 years out as in she is in her second year devilling? Are all the 40/120 people from the same class, started at the same time, and dropped out at the end of (or before) second year?"

You answered:
"Yes, yes, mostly and yes!"

This is curious because in 2005, there were 2 classes in KI, one of about about 100, the other of 160. Of each of these groups, not all went down in the first year. If many of these people thought along the lines of you (e.g. no money in the first 2 years) or if they follow the bar council line (e.g. not much money and none guaranteed), then it seems highly unlikely that so many would quit due to the lack of money (i.e. they would ask themselves can I afford it or not?).

I think that the 15% in 5 years cited by morbo is a much more reasonable estimate, but it is better than your estimate in one very important aspect - it is based on a cited authority, rather than being an apocryphrical tale.

And I am staunchly nationalist - if I could find a basis to defend the Irish system that accords with my beliefs/sense of logic I would!

Is your belief "lots of money, right now"?

The only "pitfall", which I don't view as such, is that people who are weak don't get in, full stop, whereas weaker people get a chance to have a go in Ireland. But I am a believer in meritocracy, and if everyone got in to the English Bar it wouldn't be as good for those of us who do get in. I do actually have "links" in Ireland but I really didn't want my career to be based on the people I know rather than my abilities.

The way you speak of the English bar is "get a pupillage and youre set for life; guaranteed tenancy, guaranteed money, guaranteed lots of interesting work". I don't think that is an accurate description of the English bar, but if it were it certainly wouldn't be meritocratic. The "once you're in you're in" attitude means that you can stop caring after the start and no one is going to take your place.

Also, a fundamental difference between my attitude and yours is that you seem to think that having a masters and/or high college grades means that you are inherently stronger than the weaker people who got lower grades. This does not take account of a few things:
a) there is not that much difference between a first and a 2h1 in terms of work put in, etc, but on paper it's a massive difference,
b) being a good student doesn't make you a good barrister
c) people go to college when they are young and irresponsible, many people who live the good life as a student are much more talented than the people who cared about their exams
d) in some colleges, what you learn is only vaguely relevant to legal practice, in others it is not relevant at all,
e) many people simply don't like college, and they prefer to learn from doing rather than from books. I believe that all things being equal, I would rather have three years qualified experience than 3 years in college (even if I wasn’t paid for either).

So your argument is flawed in my view, because people who don't have a flashy CV are not "weak", rather they are "untested". As you say, they can have a go in Ireland, and they might be a great barrister, whereas the in way you portray the English bar (and I must re-iterate I don’t accept what you say as accurate) a person with good qualifications is sorted, and when they’re in they’re in, even if they’re not that good. It is only if they're **** that they could possibly not succeed.

So basically it is very difficult for any nepotism to occur in that chambers (maybe 40 barristers) decides who to take on, not one guy your dad knows from golf. And furthermore chambers reputation stands to gain or lose from who they take on so they will want to take on the best available. 26 is not old to join the English Bar, I would say 24-25 is about the average age anyway but in any case chambers tend to value life experience and some chambers pretty much refuse all 22-year-olds!

Scenario 1)
Head of Chambers: So anyways my son has just finished college.
Head of pupil selection committee: Oh really? How is little A?
Head of Chambers: Just like his mother…
Head of pupil selection committee: Ho ho ho, (aside – I’ll see what I can do)

Scenario 2)
Head of pupil selection committee: we have two excellent candidates, B, a perfectly nice fellow, or C, the son of Lord Denning
Other committee members: Hmmm…tough choice

Scenario 3)
QC 1: Do you have any room in your chambers for my nephew?
QC 2: Don’t worry about a thing
QC 2 (to the rest of chambers): I propose D; QC 1 vouches for him and so do I
Rest of chambers: Sounds good.

I know so many people for whom King's Inns left a bitter taste in their mouths as an establishment.

Why?

Basically about 500 people get pupillage and about 500 people get tenancy after that. It is widely acknowledged that the problem is getting pupillage, not tenancy - certainly, in some chambers there may be a 1 in 3 chance of getting taken on as a tenant IN THAT CHAMBERS - but once you have done your pupillage you are highly likely to get taken on by another chambers, as first of all you can't be THAT bad or you wouldn't have got pupillage (ok, if you're really **** you may get nowhere) and secondly, another chambers has paid for your training and you are arriving ready to go! Most, if not all chambers, make a special effort to find room at other chambers for those they don't take on (known as "third six" pupillages). You have to build up your reputation in that if you're **** people will learn - but you do have people (clerks) whose job it is to get you the work in the first place, if you screw up you have only yourself to blame.

Have a look at this. It is similar to what dats_right says, and it seems to be a general trend. Even if it is not always as bad as one in 3, there are some people who don’t get a tenancy at all. So “about 500 people get pupillage and about 500 people get tenancy after that” is contradicted by this website. Furthermore, you said yourself that if you’re [I assume you mean bad] you get nowhere, and presumably there must be some people who are bad, it is internally inconsistent to say that there are equal numbers getting pupillage as there are getting chambers.

Tom Young · 17-04-2007 10:58PM

I've been following this thread now since its inception. I am really growing tired of it.

My take:

Morbo sought some advice, I believe he got more than adequate data and answers in pages 1 through to 4 of this thread.

It has now gotten a little out of control. We are now onto the virtues of the English Bar Structure, which while comparable is a totally different set-up and potentially could do with its own thread entitled 'The differences between the UK and Irish Bar' or 'Common Law Jurisdictions, the differences'.

I absolutely can't agree that doing down the Law Society or Honorable Society serves any purpose here. Most who have bitter tastes in their mouths possibly weren't meant to be there or had not yet achieved the levels of maturity to operate as an advocate at the Irish Bar, regardless of the consequences.

I know many at the Irish, Northern Irish and UK bars. There are vast differences in structure and culture.

People need to do what morbo did, ask. Find out, get advice. Don't go blindly into the legal profession its not advisible. Nor might I add is being shepherded in by a family member.

One is and should only be as good as ones last case [both professions]. People who are not committed or able will be exposed.

There are plenty of options for people with legal qualification.

By the way morbo, in re. the comments you made further back about your multi-qualifications.

Many solicitors and barristers (and many who enter late) have other qualifications, directorships you name it.

Don't ever assume that people who read and post on boards aren't in senior legal, commercial, governmental or other positions with cross qualifications.

Now I've said what I wanted to say.:cool:

Mama_Julia · 17-04-2007 11:27PM

morbo wrote:

Firstly, I started this thread to get information about the legal profession, so this is MY debate. I shall allow you to join in. I’m kind that way. :rolleyes:

Well if you'd rather I didn't I will get back in my box, I was just trying to help by sharing my experience and have got nothing but vitriol from that fella in return!

I know all lawyers are paranoid about being identified, but if you don’t really want to post an answer on the thread, just send me a PM. I have asked some quite simple questions in this thread that I have received extremely vague lawyer answers to. It’s quite funny, actually.

I have answered most of your questions and in as much detail as possible, don't think that comment is especially fair!

I am doing my FYP on international law. Specifically the development of jurisprudence of DSU’s of the panels of the WTO. So maybe Lincolns Inn would be best for me, if I choose to go to London.

Hmm, I don't know, it's not like it's a hotbed of international lawyers, it's just that many Asians, Caribbeans etc choose it. I think it's the biggest Inn too, I certainly know lots of people from there.

At the moment, even though I won’t be finished my LL.B. until 2008, I’m trying to decide where I want to do a Masters. Should I go to England to get a grasp of English law? Or should I go to Trinity, or EUI Florence, just to get a recognised name behind me? I know I’ll get into pretty much any college I apply to (apart from one of the Oxbridge colleges), so it’s all about the ‘brand value’ of the University that’s backing it up.

Meh, re English law the only thing that really matters is that you can answer the questions on English law in the interviews which can be quite tough. Don't really know exactly how the chambers react to particular different unis though there is obviously SOME snobbery (ie Cambridge will be better regarded than Ballyjamesduff IT). I would say that if you do a specialist masters you will appeal to a specialist set - ie masters in European Law in FLorence=interview with chambers specialising in European Law.

This is all really good info though, keep it coming. Thanks.

Ho hum. Feeling a bit drained by this forum, feeling distinctly underappreciated!:rolleyes:

Also, are there entrance exams to do the BVC like there is to get into the Kings Inn? It’s not really clear from the different sites I’ve been checking out.

Edit: Never mind the last question. Found the answer on Wikipedia. There are none!

Mama_Julia · 18-04-2007 12:13AM

Johnny, I thought long and hard before dignifying your post with a response. I have never attacked you personally, you have done all of the attacking, I have merely been stating my position. You spoke of me "stooping" and spoke of my "hypothetical sister" (which I see you have since thought better of and removed). I don't intend to waste much more time on this but I will simply respond to your most aggressive and/or patronising points.

I'm sorry that my sources are "apocryphrical" (sic.) but I was merely attempting to indicate the existence of a general consensus among my friends and relatives, which is based on their experience at the Bar. Sure, I cannot support this with statistics/surveys, I was unaware that strict evidential rules were being applied to posts in this forum. I simply feel that the views of those actually at the Bar experiencing this are of great value, even if I cannot get them to join this forum or sign a statement of truth. And I am quite aware of what hearsay is, thank you.

I did not say that you were ignoring my posts. Nor have I ignored yours, I have simply refrained from agreeing with you which seems to have ruffled your feathers. You define the money available to devils as "income" - I do not as I am talking about income in a real sense, not pocket money. We have established that we agree that there is little money to be made in the first few years - that is all that I am saying. There is no point in splitting hairs.

To say I can't attack the argument so I attack the person is simply laughable. I have attempted to refute your argument (in my view, successfully) on several grounds and I have refrained from attacking you despite you being one of the most condescending people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. Yes, I asked you where you were coming from - that is not a personal attack. You know where I am coming from and have taken great pleasure from constructing an ad hominem argument about my biases, yet you are unwilling to reveal yours.

I am aware that there were two classes in 2005. She was in the larger one. I have to say I myself was surprised that so many people were leaving given that they had been made aware of the lack of money etc in advance but it seems that the reality has got to many while others have felt lost in a sea of potential barristers scrounging for work.****WARNING!!! WARNING!!! THE PRECEDING PARAGRAPHS MAY CONTAIN HEARSAY EVIDENCE!!!***

Again we will have to agree to disagree re letting people in. If I hadn't worked especially hard or done especially well I would like a nice big open door for everyone too. But I have so I don't see why I should spend several years in poverty just so people whose "true potential has never been realised", many of whom are relying on funding from their parents and links, can have a go. You don't see everyone who wants to be a doctor getting a bash at it to the detriment of others who have worked their arses off to get into it, no matter how great they would have been as doctors.

As for the stats - that site is wrong. You can roll your eyes all you want but I think they are talking about the 1:3 ratio in particular chambers. I have seen the official stats but I can't seem to get them up online, they are in the Careers guides for people applying to the Bar.

I said around 500 pupillages, around 500 tenancies - give or take maybe fifteen, ie generally people with pupillage get tenancies. Those who have been selected are unlikely to be spectacularly bad given that they have been chosen often from hundreds of applicants on the basis of their academics, advocacy experience and interview.

If you stop caring in England, you get fewer cases and less work and less money, simple as that.

As I have made QUITE clear, my view is not "LOTS OF MONEY, NOW!!" it is a. enough money to support myself b. a system where if I am good enough I will definitely flourish.

In my view there is clearly much more room for nepotism to take place in Ireland. It's just self-evident! A chambers can't just take someone on without advertising the pupillage vacancy, then they stand to lose if they pick someone weak for whatever reason. I suppose someone like Lord Denning's son may have a slight advantage but in my view there is much less room for this in England. But hey THAT'S JUST MY OPINION! That's opinion evidence Johnny, do you know what that is?:rolleyes:

EDIT: Found the stats for 2005 in a book I have. 1st Oct 2004 - 30th Sept 2005: 1st six pupillages (pupillages "proper")= 556 2nd six pupillages=+42, tenancies=544. Source: Bar Council

morbo · 18-04-2007 10:35AM

Well, Tom, your post is a contradiction in terms really. You said I have gained all the knowledge I need. The thread started out about the NYSB, and any way of overcoming the problem of them not recognising the durational requirement of my degree. The thread is about my career in general. Having information about the possible opportunities available to me at the English bar is extremely relevant. Then you say that people need to do what I am doing and ask questions. Well, I AM doing that. This is all good information for me. So, do I need to stop asking questions? I don’t think so. Nevertheless, thanks for your input!

Also, “Don't ever assume that people who read and post on boards aren't in senior legal, commercial, governmental or other positions with cross qualifications.” What? When in the blue hell did I do that? You could be An Taoiseach, the AG, or a chippy for all I know. As long as you want to give me good advice I don’t care who you are, to be honest.

As for you Mama Julia, don’t get too disheartened by the responses you get on here. It’s the same reaction I got in the beginning, but I have started to win them over. Now they all love me and are offering me jobs! (I’d just like to distance myself legally from my last statement, as it was entirely as it has no basis in truth whatsoever.)

I’m happy with the info I’m getting from you (whether they’re from dodgy sources or not! LOL), and I do understand what you are saying about the 1 in 3 chance of being accepted by a chamber as being the ratio for that specific chamber, and I’m pretty sure I have read similar statistics to the ones you are talking about.

There’s some good info about being a barrister here, http://www.prospects.ac.uk/downloads/occprofiles/profile_pdfs/K3_Barrister.pdf. It does sort of paint a bleak picture of the future in the ‘Training’ section with the number of places in chambers decreasing.

In the article that Johnny posted, the exact wording is, “In fact, as low as only one-third of pupils find a tenancy.” Well, it could have said, “In fact, there is a chance that every pupil will get tenancy.” It’s too ambiguous to base a decision to not have a go at being a barrister in England. They are just covering their asses, really.

You are right that you cannot just give a Pupillage to anyone. Chambers are required to advertise all Pupillage positions that become available. Whether that is just a token gesture because they have already chosen the candidate is what is really in question. I do believe there is some nepotism. This exists in every industry. It’s is pretty much the norm. But you do have to make it on your own. A solicitor can prepare the greatest brief in the world for you, but if you go to court and cock it up, you are not going to be a ‘practicing’ barrister for very long.

Johnny isn’t trying to attack you personally. You guys just got off on the wrong foot. He bases everything he says on cold hard facts. He doesn’t like to entertain “my mom was talking to John, who told her that Bill’s wife Helen said…” sort of arguments. So when you say something, you’ve got to have some evidence to back it up. (I have found this out to my detriment on many occasions in this thread!) Don’t be offended. Johnny has been really knowledgeable and helpful on a hell of allot areas for me, and I thank him greatly for this.

Mama_Julia · 18-04-2007 08:26PM

morbo wrote:

Johnny isn’t trying to attack you personally. You guys just got off on the wrong foot. He bases everything he says on cold hard facts. He doesn’t like to entertain “my mom was talking to John, who told her that Bill’s wife Helen said…” sort of arguments. So when you say something, you’ve got to have some evidence to back it up. (I have found this out to my detriment on many occasions in this thread!) Don’t be offended. Johnny has been really knowledgeable and helpful on a hell of allot areas for me, and I thank him greatly for this.

Morbo I'm afraid I have come to my own view on this and it doesn't coincide with yours! As for cold hard facts, please point out the references/authorities with which Mr Skeleton has substantiated any of the following points he has made on this thread:

Contact them first, they might make an execption for you. If you explain that it is a two year post grad degree, they might accept it.[HOW DO YOU KNOW?? SOURCES FOR THIS PLEASE!]

A friend of mine doing the exams told me that they accept the BL from Kings Inns, so if you are interested in doing that as an extra year you might want to check that out.[A FRIEND OF YOURS??? WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAYS! DO YOU KNOW WHAT HEARSAY IS?]

why not try another state? This might also be a back door into the NY bar, i.e. sit the Hicksville state law-talkin' exam and then try to get that qualification accepted so you can sit the NY bar. Also, I think you might be able to get in by working in a law firm in america for a few years. [HOW DO YOU KNOW?]

What is even more disconcerting is that you could probably do the NY bar for less effort, less money and in a shorter space of time than the FE1s. And you are then more qualified than people who do the solicitor's course.[HOW DO YOU KNOW? HAVE YOU SAT BOTH EXAMS??]

You get a lot of materials and high quality tutors (as far as I know), and have access to a first rate library and (I assume) computer services etc. All these things cost money.[ASSUME?? WE NEED SOURCES]

I think the problem in that regard is not the leniency of the sentence, but the way the public don't understand the actual severity and the other factors surrounding it.[HOW DO YOU KNOW? HAVE YOU GOT EVIDENCE FROM INTERNET SURVEYS THAT WE CAN ANALYSE AND CHALLENGE??]

However I recognise that a lot of the public calls for blood are based on a feeling that there is too much crime and that the criminal justice system is failing overall. I do not think that tougher sentences will make any significant difference to crime rates in general.[BASED ON WHAT?]

As regards your point that the NY Bar Exam is one of the toughest around, I would be of the view that it is not as hard as the FE1s in terms of the standard and workload involved.[AGAIN, HAVE YOU SAT THEM BOTH?]

Add to that the bar is possibly oversubscribed at the moment, so the information you get from any one person is never going to be 100% accurate. [WHERE ARE YOUR STATISTICS TO SHOW THAT IT IS OVERSUBSCRIBED?]

If you do your apprentiship (sic.) with a big firm, even if they get rid of you, you are a valuable commodity.[I NEED EVIDENCE FOR THIS]

If barristers could form partnerships, you would get large firms bullying out the little guy. Only the big solicitors firms would have access to the big chambers.[HOW DO YOU KNOW?]

Plus, and this is of the utmost importance, it is the way that it has always been done, and it will stay that way forever (competition authoirty (sic.) notwithstanding).[HOW DO YOU KNOW?]

Only a small proportion of those who complete their pupilage get into a chambers, and only a small proportion of them get tenancy.[HOW DO YOU KNOW? STATISTICS PLEASE]

At present, anyone who wants to devil, can usually get a master. They will be unpaid, but they can enter the profession. By contrast the situation in England is quite different. There, only the busiest masters will take on a pupil (because pupils have to be paid), and it is even harder to continue in the profession after pupilage because the system is by and large tied up.[CAN WE SEE THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS PLEASE?]

As the pub beckons, I am not going to waste any more time copying unsubstantiated comments made by Mr "Cold Hard Facts" - suffice to say I got less than halfway through the thread and only picked out a few examples from the first half. It would appear that we have to accept what he says "because he says so" but that rule doesn't apply to the rest of us. And as the man said himself, he could be the Lord Cheif Justice (sic.) or a pig farmer - and I'm thinking the latter is more likely given that the LCJ of England is unlikely to be on an Irish forum and the Irish Chief Justice does not use the word "Lord" in his title - and indeed I assume each of them is able to spell his title. I won't be patronised by a pig farmer.:rolleyes:

morbo · 18-04-2007 08:48PM

This is turning into a ‘Me v Joe’ type thread again! NOOOOOOO! But at the same time, I find this quite funny. The fall out from this could be great! Or… it could be very dull. We’ll see.

Anyway, back to business, I misstated my position earlier, I am doing a project on international trade, but I am actually interested in practicing in commercial law, not international law. I have a feeling that I’d have a better chance of success in that area in London or NY or basically anywhere outside of Ireland. (This is how sad I am, my favourite subjects are commercial, contract, company and tort law! Yes… as I said, sad!)

I love spelling mistakes. Did you see the post where I refer to barristers as Junior and Senior Councils? It came pretty much right after I referred to myself as a ‘Grammar Nazi’ in an earlier post.

Do you think if you guys just got together and had a bit of a wrestle and a few beers afterwards you’d be friends? I can’t deal with people I barely know being angry with one another. It’s getting close to exam time and I don’t need the stress!

I just realised I have no work for the summer. BALLS! I’ll never be a legal professional if I don’t work in a solicitor’s office in the summer after my first year of law school! Well, my career is over. Best get onto the local FÁS office and ask about a trade I guess.

Mama_Julia · 18-04-2007 11:34PM

morbo wrote:

This is turning into a ‘Me v Joe’ type thread again! NOOOOOOO! But at the same time, I find this quite funny. The fall out from this could be great! Or… it could be very dull. We’ll see.

Anyway, back to business, I misstated my position earlier, I am doing a project on international trade, but I am actually interested in practicing in commercial law, not international law. I have a feeling that I’d have a better chance of success in that area in London or NY or basically anywhere outside of Ireland. (This is how sad I am, my favourite subjects are commercial, contract, company and tort law! Yes… as I said, sad!)

I love spelling mistakes. Did you see the post where I refer to barristers as Junior and Senior Councils? It came pretty much right after I referred to myself as a ‘Grammar Nazi’ in an earlier post.

Do you think if you guys just got together and had a bit of a wrestle and a few beers afterwards you’d be friends? I can’t deal with people I barely know being angry with one another. It’s getting close to exam time and I don’t need the stress!

I just realised I have no work for the summer. BALLS! I’ll never be a legal professional if I don’t work in a solicitor’s office in the summer after my first year of law school! Well, my career is over. Best get onto the local FÁS office and ask about a trade I guess.

My dear Morbo, ladies don't drink beer or wrestle, and neither do I

Re spelling/grammar - my personal favourite is when people (as they often do) declare themselves to be "a stickler for spelling and grammer" (sic.)!

****WARNING!! WARNING!! OPINION EVIDENCE AND/OR EVIDENCE THAT IS NOT FULLY REFERENCED BELOW!! ACHTUNG!! ATTENTION!! REABHADH!!****
In case you are wondering (not sure if you were looking for advice on this point but thought I'd throw it in!) the Commercial Bar in London is notoriously difficult to get into :eek: it's not my bag anyway fortunately! Though it would be if my philosophy actually was "MAKE MONEY, NOW!!" There is much less advocacy for juniors at the commercial bar than in other areas. Actually the amount of advocacy at the different areas is roughly inversely proportional to the money to be made - ie criminal/family - loads of advocacy, not much times to prepare briefs, relatively little money (hence the hilarious in-joke "Crime doesn't pay"); civil - some advocacy, some preparation, good money; commercial - little advocacy, lots of prep, great money. Personally if I was into commercial law I'd probably be a commercial solicitor instead given that you don't get to do that much advocacy at the Commercial Bar anyway - much easier to get a magic circle training contract than a commercial pupillage, more secure and it's well-paid (not as well-paid as work as a successful commercial barrister but as I said it's damn hard to become one). There are about 500 places in Magic Circle firms alone each year and only 500 pupillages of ANY type in England/Wales!

I take it you are being tongue in cheek re work experience?! Personally I never did anything "for my CV" as I never thought I'd need one given my intentions to hit the Irish Bar and I got away with having done nothing but fun/random things over my summers, if anything they seem to find it refreshing as everyone here tries so hard to build their cvs with mini-pupillages/shadowing/paralegaling/mooting etc - I was more the "worked in burger bar in New York City" type and that made me stand out!

morbo · 19-04-2007 02:22PM

Great! So the fact that I pretended to be a qualified carpenter and built wood frame houses all over Boston for a few months will probably give them a great kick!

One of my friends has a Masters in English and continually refers to a sunny day in terms of, “Isn’t it lovely whether we’re having!” when he emails me.

I am actually beginning to really and truly LOVE commercial law. I don’t know why, but I just have more of a feeling for being a barrister than a solicitor? I’m not even particularly fond of public speaking. I’m not averse to it; I just don’t really go out of my way to do it. I’m just so confused!

Tom Young · 19-04-2007 03:27PM

Just goes to show that having a Masters in English does not mean you can spell!

"Whether or not the weather is nice and pleasant at the moment."

Morbo's already admitted to being a grammar nazi. I find often that people who text message a lot are guilty of bad spelling.

I am actually beginning to really and truly LOVE commercial law.

I love it as well. I like pure Company law better though. Commercial tends to be more broad, but nonetheless interesting.

Tom

morbo · 19-04-2007 05:39PM

I haven’t actually formally started studying company law yet. Dr Thomas Courtney from Arthur Cox came and gave a talk to the UL Law Soc a few months back on company law, and I was really enthralled by it. I cannot wait for next semester when I’m going to be studying it in full.

I’ve been talking to a few tutors and lecturers around the college, as well as a few of the researchers that are practicing solicitors and barristers, and despite me saying I wanted to be a barrister, the general coconscious amongst the group is that being a solicitor is a better way to go. They don’t know me very well, so it’s not based on what they think would be best for me, but I don’t know. It is sort of making me rethink my position. They all pretty much echoed what Mama Julia had said about it being tough to get into commercial law as a barrister in nearly every jurisdiction, and that there is allot more work available in the area as a solicitor.

I already know a good deal about the Blackhall, Kings Inns, the NYSB, and the BVC, so I guess I might as well start looking into the LPC and cover all my bases. (I’m never going to get any study done!)

Mama_Julia · 19-04-2007 08:39PM

morbo wrote:

I haven’t actually formally started studying company law yet. Dr Thomas Courtney from Arthur Cox came and gave a talk to the UL Law Soc a few months back on company law, and I was really enthralled by it. I cannot wait for next semester when I’m going to be studying it in full.

I’ve been talking to a few tutors and lecturers around the college, as well as a few of the researchers that are practicing solicitors and barristers, and despite me saying I wanted to be a barrister, the general coconscious amongst the group is that being a solicitor is a better way to go. They don’t know me very well, so it’s not based on what they think would be best for me, but I don’t know. It is sort of making me rethink my position. They all pretty much echoed what Mama Julia had said about it being tough to get into commercial law as a barrister in nearly every jurisdiction, and that there is allot more work available in the area as a solicitor.

I already know a good deal about the Blackhall, Kings Inns, the NYSB, and the BVC, so I guess I might as well start looking into the LPC and cover all my bases. (I’m never going to get any study done!)

Well to be honest I don't know much about how competitive commercial work at the Bar is in other jurisdictions (including Ireland) relative to other Bar work but if you want to get into a good commercial set here you pretty much need AT LEAST one first class law degree and an awe-inspiring cv! I'm living with 3 LPC students going to Magic Circle firms and have gleaned some *************HEARSAY!!!******** evidence from them - basically the starting pay is really good (c.30k) but the magic circle firms effectively own you and WILL work you to death on your training contract (at least 830am-730pm five days a week - OFTEN, especially in corporate department, staying until 11pm every night and coming in on Saturdays too (for no extra pay)). I know one guy whose girlfriend is on a training contract at A & O and basically hands him thousands of pounds to spend on himself as she doesn't have the time to spend it!! So make sure you evaluate the pros and cons of whichever option you choose! I hope you don't find my use of hearsay offensive my dear morbo, but I feel it is more useful to you than no evidence at all

Something else you should know is that training contract spaces are filled early - you have to apply up to two years in advance and will be expected to attend vacation schemes at the firm before applying.

morbo · 20-04-2007 03:32PM

One of my class mates has been interning at solicitors firm in London (Piccadilly to be precise) for the past 2 years. The name escapes me right now. Think it might be Jane’s, or Jayne’s, or something to that effect? She’s been telling me all about the hardships of being just a summer intern, and how here training contract friends are being worked into the ground. And that’s not even a magic circle firm. I don’t really have a problem with long hours. When I lived in Boston, I was working 2 jobs and was generally doing 75 hours plus a week.

Like most bars, criminal law is always going to get you enough money for bread and milk, but if you want to some jam to go along with it, you have to go commercial or civil. They’re just harder to get established in because there’s not that much work, especially in this country. I’m not really interested in the money side, though. Criminal law just bores the living daylights out of me. I have absolutely no interest in being a criminal lawyer… EVER! If I’m going to dedicate my life to being a lawyer in any capacity, it’s going to be in something I love.

Side note: good stuff with the new criminal courts complex in Dublin – 22 new court rooms – which will free up the Four Courts to be a civil court only. That could lead to more opportunities at the Bar for me, as it will be completed the summer I’d be looking to Devil (if I stay here that is?).

Hearsay… I love the laws of evidence. I did that whole subject in just 2 months and sat and passed an exam in it! I took it as an elective in my first term. We were all warned not to, as it is really complex, and we should have a good idea of other areas of the law before attempting it. … BALLS! It was a piece of piss! (I should probably tone-down the vulgar colloquialisms if I am to be a lawyer…) Hearsay will always be welcome in my court!

As for the applying 2 years in advance of getting your training contract, I read that you should be applying for your pupillage 2 years in advance, too. Did you have any problems in applying, Mama? (Calling you Mama is really freaking me out! Can I just say Julia, or Jules, or MJ? Or… eh… ‘Barrister Girl’? We’re all friends now right? You guys can be my new family.) How far in advance did you apply for your pupillage?

Mama_Julia · 20-04-2007 04:49PM

Yep, usually (there are a few smaller chambers that recruit one year in advance) - I had to apply a year and a half in advance, ie apply April, interviews May-July, start September the year after. That's the norm, most chambers are on summer OLPAS which requires applications in April. Woo it's so sunny!! Is it nice in Ireland?!

morbo · 20-04-2007 04:54PM

It hasn’t rained in close to 25 days! It’s been really nice weather everyday, but today is a bit cloudy and cold. We were close to 20 C over the last couple of days. Might have actually made it to the 20 mark, not really sure.

I just checked something out, this is the most replied to thread in the history of the legal discussion board. YAY!

Mama_Julia · 24-04-2007 12:43AM

morbo wrote:

I just checked something out, this is the most replied to thread in the history of the legal discussion board. YAY!

Ah, the trusty kiss of death!

Arsenal1986 · 15-04-2010 04:44PM

Stumbled across this thread as it was linked on a recent one, and being bored in work had a read through it - Is the OP still around, be curious to see what he ended up doing, had some grand and oft-changing Plans!

FreudianSlippers · 15-04-2010 04:55PM

morbo wrote: »

They do recognise the BL from Kings Inn, but the problem is farting about for a year and wasting €30,000 doing the BL, when it's only two days and $400 to sit the NYSB.

Granted, it's €4,000 to do the preparation courses offered here for the NYSB, but whatever way you spin it, it's still only a fraction of the price, and it's an internationally recognised and highly sought after accreditation.

The hell with doing an apprenticeship or devilling for minimum wage! I would like to do the BL, but it's so much money, and I really do not like the idea of moving to Dublin for a year. That alone would be another €20,000.

That's a bit of an exaggeration on the costs of the KI. It's about half that amount.

Edit: Oh, I just posted in a 3 year old thread... congratulations me on being hungover and missing those dates. (they always say the first thing to look at is the date! silly statute of limitations lol)

Well, that's a kick in my careers teeth!

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