What do you tell your kids

Butterbox · 24-11-2005 11:00am #1

Catholic religion is a major part of education in Ireland. If you are an atheist do you tell your kids this or keep quiet?

Asiaprod · 24-11-2005 11:17am

Butterbox wrote:

Catholic religion is a major part of education in Ireland. If you are an atheist do you tell your kids this or keep quiet?

That is one of the best questions I have heard in a long time. I am eager to here the opinions of others. I have 3 nieces all going through the same isues in Dublin as we speak.

Beruthiel · 24-11-2005 11:26am

Butterbox wrote:

Catholic religion is a major part of education in Ireland. If you are an atheist do you tell your kids this or keep quiet?

it was a natural thing for me
I just never went to mass or any of that other stuff, as they prepared her for communion in school, (she wanted to do it cos everyone else was...) I just let her go ahead, told her I didn't believe in it but if she wanted to, that was no problem, lots of people believed in it and I was leaving it to her to decide for herself.
So she grew up thinking it was a nice story and all but other than that it never stuck with her.
In her teens she took up Paganism for a while, or more so back to the old celtic religions as she is very interested in anything to do with old irish history. She has grown out of that too but the interest in irish history has stuck.
She is strong in herself and it has had no adverse effect on her.

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 11:30am

When do you tell your children there's no santa ? I'm assuming some of you have let them believe in that.

When there grand-parents die do you tell young children. 'Well timmy, granddads dead. He's gone and thats the end of it." or would you give a little lie to sweeten a bitter pill.

I'm curious for what reason would you tell them?

Beruthiel · 24-11-2005 11:46am

Rev Hellfire wrote:

When do you tell your children there's no santa ? I'm assuming some of you have let them believe in that.

I remember the first christmas she asked me if santa existed - I said he does if you believe in him.. (cop out)
the next christmas she told me that there was no santa - I said great, that means I don't have to put anymore prezzies under the tree, t'will save me a fortune - noooooooooooooo

When there grand-parents die do you tell young children. 'Well timmy, granddads dead.

they are all still alive so I never had to deal with that - and now, she's old enough at this stage to come up with her own answers.

monkeyfudge · 24-11-2005 11:53am

Rev Hellfire wrote:

When do you tell your children there's no santa?

Spoiler tags please!!!

Hippo · 24-11-2005 11:54am

My kids were both raised as atheists, and went to a multidenominational school where they studied many different religious practices. We were fortunate in having that facility, but if they had had to attend a denominational school I wouldn't have raised them any differently. An exception WAS made for Santa, magic of Christmas etc etc and they both had dropped that by about 8 or 9!
I think you shouldn't try and make them believe in something you don't believe in yourself, just be honest. It helps develop an honest relationship as well, which is great in the long run.

robindch · 24-11-2005 12:36pm

My gf's doing occasional work in a state-funded, religiously-managed creche in Dublin and something along the lines of this little ditty was produced by one of the other workers there a short while ago, sung to Barny the Purple Dinosaurs' tune:

God loves you, god loves me,
This is news, so ha-ah-pee!
God loves me, god loves you,
Won't you say you love god too?

<retching sounds>

Butterbox · 24-11-2005 12:36pm

There is a mighty difference between telling a child there is no Santa and telling them that when everyone dies, especially themselves, that is the end of them, and that they have no soul and that they are ultimately alone. This, especially, since they have already been told in school that they will go to heaven forever.

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 12:50pm

monkeyfudge wrote:

Spoiler tags please!!!

If young kids are reading this forum, then that little revelation is going to be the least of their worries.

There is a mighty difference between telling a child there is no Santa and telling them that when everyone dies, especially themselves, that is the end of them, and that they have no soul and that they are ultimately alone. This, especially, since they have already been told in school that they will go to heaven forever.

I'm not sure what your point is, I may have misread your opening question which I took to understand as do you tell your children when going to school there is no god and the others are wrong.
I would say that there is no harm in telling a little lie while they are young for a little good and comfort. If the information is available from you, then when they are ready (ie older) they will come to conclussion you wish them to have.

Hippo · 24-11-2005 1:13pm

I don't get your point either. If they're going to a Catholic school, you must have been prepared for this conversation at some stage. Tell the white lie if it makes things better in the short term, but bear in mind it's the school filling their heads with this stuff, you will still have far greater influence in what you say.
As regards the death of a relative, it's perfectly acceptable I would think to refer vaguely to some form of cosy afterlife or whatever, especially if they're very young...that's a whole different debate anyway, and could be kept separate from the existence of God question. Sorry I'm rambling now...btw if my kids(who are now 17 and 20) had turned out to be devout Christians that would have been fine by me.

Stephen · 24-11-2005 1:43pm

Robindch's post really brings the whole question of separation of church and state into play. I believe that no particular religious ethos should be taught in any school funded by taxpayers money. Its all well and good saying that you could send your kids to a non-religious school but these are few and far between, and in many areas there is no choice but to send children to a catholic school. I went to two CBS's myself. Schools should educate, not indoctrinate. Leave teaching of religion to the parents.

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 1:47pm

I'm assuming here we are talking about young children who are starting school, infant level.
If you elect to send your child to a school with a strong Christian basis well it’s not exactly going to come as a surprise that’s what they teach. I am aware that it’s not always possible or practical to send a child to a nondenominational school.
But that said no school (that I’m aware of, I may be wrong) teaches from an atheist perspective so you’re somewhat going to be at odd no matter what you do. You can’t very well introduce religion in school as ‘here are the main beliefs, all of which are wrong’. I strongly believe a broad introduction is a good thing since it plays such a pivotal role in global society, and an understanding of the various faiths is no bad thing.

As for whether the existence of god is relevant to this topic, I’d say it’s the crux of the matter, or rather the belief on the part of the parent which I have taken possibly incorrectly as atheist.

But there is another way of looking at this, should atheist parents be allowed to place what are essentially dissents in a school. If I was a religious parent who wished a religious upbringing for their child and sent them to a school with a particular ethos. I’m not sure I would want other children telling them that what they are been taught is incorrect. At present most parents seem to be accepting of the school ethos in Ireland or unconcerned. Not saying its fair just what the reality from my perspective is.

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 1:51pm

Stephen wrote:

Leave teaching of religion to the parents.

I'd actually say thats the worst outcome, schools have an importent function to play in educating people on religion. They should cover a broad spectum but I see no reason that they should not teach from the same ethos as society which they operate, which in ireland's case I would say is largely christian still. non practising christians but christian none the less.

When I refer to schools I'm talking about public schools funded by the society as a whole, what people teach in a private school is largely their own business.

Zaph0d · 24-11-2005 2:10pm

Butterbox wrote:

Catholic religion is a major part of education in Ireland. If you are an atheist do you tell your kids this or keep quiet?

I tell them that Christian philosophy is a good thing (love one another, turn the other cheek etc) but that the big man in the sky stuff is BS. I also tell them never to discuss the existence of God with anyone unless they want a load of hassle.

Butterbox · 24-11-2005 2:20pm

The concenus seems to be to keep stumb and let them figure it out themselves. I try to instill a sense of general sceptism in my kids. They don't accept things blindly and have become pretty resistant to dogma. This obviously leads to them asking about God and I haven't the heart to tell them what I really believe. They are very young but I feel like a fraud. This is an issue that is discussed fairly glibly, but if you really think about what you would prefer, to tell your kids that there is no afterlife is WORSE than gathering them together and telling them that they are going to die today.

Hippo · 24-11-2005 3:32pm

"....to tell your kids that there is no afterlife is worse than gathering them together and telling them they are going to die today."

Did you really mean to write this? This is one of the most extraordinary statements I've ever seen. You have to be joking.
Just be honest with your kids, why keep stumb and let them work it out themselves? All they'll learn is to avoid discussion, arguments, ideas, just like their parents.

Zaph0d · 24-11-2005 3:36pm

Butterbox wrote:

to tell your kids that there is no afterlife is WORSE than gathering them together and telling them that they are going to die today.

Do you wish you believed in an afterlife? Do you think you would be happier as a result?

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 3:40pm

I think we can all assume that was a typo

Rev Hellfire · 24-11-2005 3:44pm

Zaph0d wrote:

Do you wish you believed in an afterlife? Do you think you would be happier as a result?

I'd say many people do indeed wish they believed in an afterlife. I'm not sure if though believing that there isn't one but wishing there was would make for a happier existance kind of the reverse. Then again I buy lotto tickets from time to time, I know I'm not going to win, but for a while its nice to ignore that fact and get down to the daydreaming about what I'll do with my well deserved few found wealth.

lostexpectation · 24-11-2005 7:46pm

I think for example with say a grandparent dieing I wouldn't talk of heaven with my kids (when I have some), it would be a conceit too far, I'd maybe just go along the "he will live on in our memories" etc line... straight forward enough,gentle enough,

I don't know what RevHellBound is on about I think he's being a bit too ridiculous ( and ridiculing) in his suggestion that an atheist would tell their children. "YOUR GOING TO BE WORMFOOD ALRIGHT NOW **** OFF"

Butterbox · 25-11-2005 10:57am

Hippo wrote:

"....to tell your kids that there is no afterlife is worse than gathering them together and telling them they are going to die today."

Did you really mean to write this? This is one of the most extraordinary statements I've ever seen. You have to be joking.
Just be honest with your kids, why keep stumb and let them work it out themselves? All they'll learn is to avoid discussion, arguments, ideas, just like their parents.

I don't understand why you would find that extraordinary. If you were told you had a choice between living somewhere for seventy odd years and then be erased from existance, or live somewhere better for eternity, which would you choose. Unless I have gone mad in the head, I would assume you would choose the latter. Now, if you then had to be told one of the above options was being immediately withdrawn, which would be the more devastating news?

Hippo · 25-11-2005 12:50pm

Not a typo then. Obviously tell your kids whatever you like. You asked for opinions here and got them. Maybe if you tell your kids there's no afterlife they won't be devastated, as you seem to think they will. Stop anticipating disaster, kids are smarter and more resilient than you give them credit for. For the record, I have no desire to live forever in 'eternity'.

Butterbox · 25-11-2005 1:31pm

I do value other peoples experiences but I am struggling with the non-chalent way the issue is percieved. I mean, why are people afraid of dying in the first place. The approach is like either there is an after-life of there isn't, it doesn't really matter. But it does to me. If we found out today that the world was doing to end tomorrow it would be big news, and yet if you believe in an afterlife why would you really care. So to be told there isn't an afterlife, or to just discover it for yourself is not something you can just shrug your sholders at. To me discovering such is infinitely worse than the world ending now, and you would hardly be surprised that people were upset if it was.

Zaph0d · 25-11-2005 1:41pm

Why not just go with the truth which is that you have no idea what happens after you die; no more than you know where you were before you were born?

Rev Hellfire · 25-11-2005 1:50pm

I think lostexpectation is framing me for something I never said :eek:

I think there are very few people who will sit comfortably with the idea of themselves going to oblivion. And for the majority of people the idea that you have continuation in one form or another is very comforting one. The truth of what happens after death really is of little consequences, that particular question is one we’ll all find the answer to eventually.

The question really is would you extend this comfort to your children and to a degree at what point in their development would be deem it correct to remove it should that be your particular belief.

I say that to a unbeliever it is surely no worse than the idea that

santa doesnt exist

, it maybe untrue no harm is done and possibly a little good comes from it.

robindch · 25-11-2005 3:17pm

> the idea that you have continuation in one form
> or another is very comforting one.

To take an extreme example -- do you think that so many guys would have been willing to fly planes into the WTC buildings if they hadn't believed, as muslims are required to do, that there were 72 virgins waiting for martyrs like them when they died?

Given this, do you think it might be wise to think about whether it's actually useful to propagate comforting beliefs like that one?

Rev Hellfire · 25-11-2005 3:37pm

Taking that argument, scientific advancement has enabled man to murder it larger numbers more efficiently than ever before. Do you think encouraging scientific advancement is wise ?

lostexpectation · 25-11-2005 4:14pm

Rev Hellfire wrote:

The question really is would you extend this comfort to your children and to a degree at what point in their development would be deem it correct to remove it should that be your particular belief.

There is nothing to remove.

robindch · 25-11-2005 5:16pm

> Taking that argument, scientific advancement has enabled
> man to murder it larger numbers more efficiently than ever
> before. Do you think encouraging scientific advancement is
> wise?

Your comparison is frankly invidious, but regardless, technology has always acted as an "amplifier" of human abilities and desires, from the development of the bow + arrow, up to nukes. The more powerful the technology, the more responsibly must society learn to deal with it, as well as the society's unhappiest members who can have access to it.

In previous times, an unhappy man would remain unhappy -- now he can hijack a plane, fly into a building and kill thousands. We're clever enough to build the plane, but most people seem unwilling to tell the pilot than he is not going to be carried up into heaven and into the company of 72 willing virgins. There is a strange acceptance that it's OK not only to have irrational beliefs and occasionally act upon them, but also, that's is actually a good idea to spread these irrational beliefs because the beliefs inform their believers that the beliefs are irrefutable, eternal truths. This, looked at cooly, is completely crazy.

Society is, sooner or later, going to have to deal with the propagation of these irrational beliefs because they are a growing threat to the species, as the events of 9/11, and Bush's irrational response to it, have amply demonstrated.

Rev Hellfire · 25-11-2005 5:35pm

You choose an extreme example which to my mind doesnt prove anything so I responded in kind. Both are a nonsense when applied to this particular topic in my mind.

Now if you had said certain religions teach this or that it may have been valid. You attempted to blame all for the actions of one.

Just as you can quote an extreme example of religion as justification for murder there is the reverse side, many christians refused to fight for the us army on the grounds that their religion has thought them that to kill is wrong. Equally some people will freely murder safe in the knowlegde that there is no devine retribution awaiting them.

Does the above prove that all religions are good and all atheist are remorseless murders, of course it doesn’t.

What do you tell your kids

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