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Immigration and Ireland - MEGATHREAD *Mod Note Added 02/09/25*

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 836 ✭✭✭Phat Cat


    That's exactly what I was thinking, it sounds like some NGO is desperate to jump on the #blacklivesmatter bandwagon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    A lot depends on the actual cause. If he collided with a member of the public while fleeing did he incur an injury in that collision which caused his death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Peter Dragon


    I saw some pretty disturbing footage of the incident and I would find it hard to see how anyone could not find the force used as excessive. I’m not fully au-fait with the regulations or policies re. detaining a shoplifter but I would be shocked if what I saw in the video was by the book and lawful.

    Now whether that excessive force was a contributory factor to the person’s death is something I guess we’ll find out after a post-mortem but I wouldn’t want to be one of the security personnel involved in this case right now.

    I say this without of course excusing shoplifting or theft in any way.

    Yes my salary is enormous but it doesn’t affect my soul.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 279 ✭✭strathspey


    Who funds this, 'Irish Network Against Racism'? There don't seem to be any details on their website. Who is the CEO? Where are the published accounts. When these organisations won't be transparent enough without having to dig up this information through the Freedom Of Information act why are they given media coverage?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Go on , tell me what the percentage of Congolese unemployed so. This should be very easy figure for you to provide, but you haven't done so. Why not?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    Why not describe it? Otherwise it just sounds like those Guardian articles where they say, “A racial epithet was used but we won’t be telling you what it is. Just trust us, it was bad.” Epithet then turns out to be gypsy, or something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Where did I say you were racist ?

    Now youre jumping to conclusions .

    You know that it was the poster who was posting fake " Congolese" employment data I was responding about .

    Why try to make it sound as if I was saying Google or all stats were racist ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Why don't you? ... you are the one who brought the subject up in the first place .

    What ...nowyou admit you don't know ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Peter Dragon


    Describe what? What I saw in the video?

    The video is widely available. It shows 5 men on top of a prone and face down man struggling underneath the weight of said 5 men. At one point one of the security guards deliberately kneels on the man’s head and neck. At another he kneels deliberately (he saw them there before doing so and moved accordingly to target them) on the prone man’s hand and fingers.

    Is that sufficient?

    I don’t and won’t excuse shoplifting and/or theft, but this is excessive force. As per my earlier post I suspect the security guards have gone way beyond policy or protocol and depending on the results of the post-mortem could I suspect be in real trouble here.

    Post edited by Peter Dragon on

    Yes my salary is enormous but it doesn’t affect my soul.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Peter Dragon


    Again, this appears to have gone completely over your head. 🤷‍♂️

    Yes my salary is enormous but it doesn’t affect my soul.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Maybe . @Peter Dragon think we are talking at cross purposes at this stage!

    I agree about that man .

    Post edited by Goldengirl on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Peter Dragon


    I wasn’t deliberately omitting things btw. The video is widely available (I don’t have a link unfortunately) though if you do want to see it be warned it is as I said, disturbing.

    Yes my salary is enormous but it doesn’t affect my soul.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    IMG_6820.jpeg

    Der Spiegel is the highly influential, left-leaning magazine in Germany. Reckon we’ll hear anything about this in Ireland? Not a chance.

    We are being led, blindfolded, into a .catastrophe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,336 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Any chance you could actually link to the tweet or the article?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,336 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Ya, they are in a lot of trouble.

    The punishment for alleged shop lifting is not death.

    Horrible end for the poor man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    I am strongly against our immigration system and numbers here in Ireland and make no bones about that. But that video of the security men (a number of big heavy men) leaning on the Congolese man on the ground is very disturbing. It's clear to see they killed him, they were leaning on his neck at one stage. Big trouble ahead for them and deserve every bit of it.

    Shoplifting is on the rise everywhere, and I'd say particurlarly in Dublin. It must break shopowners hearts. If this man was stealing from Arnotts it wasn't a bag of crisps or a bar of chocolate he took. But that level of force and pressure was only going to end up in serious injury or death. Absolutely no excuse for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    "It's clear to see they killed him".

    Nothing is clear until those involved have their day in court.

    Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Peter Dragon


    The same could be said for the dead man.

    I do however wonder if it was Anto from the flats would the reaction to this be different?

    There may be contributory factors (underlying health condition , drugs present in his system etc.) but even if he did not pass away there is excessive force used here. I cannot understand how anyone can defend or excuse this actions of the security men in this case.

    Yes my salary is enormous but it doesn’t affect my soul.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 257 ✭✭Resplendent Moose


    I've sat jury duty on a case where whether or not excessive force was used by a security guard was in question. As I recall it, while a certain amount of force is allowed and even expected, there is no strict definition in law for what constitues "excessive", and it is left to the jury to make their own determination. A rough guideline does exist, however, which is whether the force used was enough to deal with the situation, or did it go beyond that. Obviously the situation itself and other context matter a LOT here.

    My feeling, based on what I've heard, is that the jury I was on would have felt the force used here was probably sufficient up to the point where the guy was restrained (although the number of guards that restrained him would definitely be queried), but anything beyond that would have been considered excessive.

    A personal invitation to dance, as Nero plays for the last time
    Tonight you will mix with the prophets without honour...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Post edited by circadian on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    The original is behind a paywall but someone has archived it:

    https://archive.is/wDdEm

    Until a few years ago, an open atmosphere prevailed at her comprehensive school in a city in northern Germany. But that's over. The headmistress recounts outrageous incidents that are commonplace: "Girls are pressured as early as fifth grade about how they should dress. If a teacher wants to decorate the classroom at Christmas time, two Muslim students stand up and say, 'We don't want that.' No one objects. Basically, no one can unwrap a salami sandwich without it becoming a big issue."

    "A small group of students has gained incredible power over a large group."
    Headmistress of a comprehensive school

    The atmosphere has become almost unbearable; some students have already changed schools. The headmistress says: "A small group of students has gained incredible power over a large group."

    You're welcome!

    Post edited by Emblematic on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,736 ✭✭✭✭sligeach


    I watched part of the video of the Congolese man being restrained, it is excessive. I worked in security during my college years, long before regulation of the sector. And I had need to get a PSA license in recent times.

    Part of your training is how to deal with situations like that. You are NOT allowed touch the suspect, unless as a last resort, like if your life is under threat. You do not give chase off the premises and grounds. It's not worth it, mainly for insurance and liability reasons. You are supposed to call the Gardaí.

    We don't know the full circumstances here. Was he violent towards the security staff when confronted? We know a man in his 80's was injured as he attempted to flee.

    Now, having said all that. This is on the governments head. What's happening to this country is a disgrace, this is a consequence of their blundering. And how long did it take for the Gardaí to arrive on one of the busiest streets in the country? It's said he was held on the ground for almost 5 minutes. We're only hearing about this because the man has died. And SMH, we have some people trying to make this a racial attack.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2026/0518/1574006-racism-network-death/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Me- 63% Congolese unemployed according to Google, link provided.

    You- fake news, misinformation

    Me- post a link for % Congolese unemployed so.

    You- do it yourself.

    Epic stuff goldengirl.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭Juran


    I saw the video and felt it was excessive.

    And I totally deplore shop lifters, and any thives. Also I am totally against the current refugee policy which is a free for all for bogus asylum seekers who are not vetted.

    Why did it take 5 to 6 men to restrain him ? We didnt see a video of the situation leading up to that. Was he violet to the security ? Was he that strong that they needed to all sit on him and squash him. CCTV footage will be important in this case.

    What ever we say about those security gaurds, they are sick of trying to catch thieves day in day out, and recieve verbal and physical abuse every day from scum. When they do manage to catch a thief, I imagine they will do everything to hold them till the gardaí arrive. Not excusing it, but we cant forget that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    IMG_6821.jpeg

    Normally I would be enraged by this, but actually I’m quite triumphant. It feels like the death-cry of progressive Ireland. It tries to demolish its opponents with calm, detached contempt, but really we can see it is barely contained hysterics.

    “The point for both Hutch and Ahern is that the names of these countries act as proxies for race. They stand for Darkest Africa”

    Well, he’s right. They stand for the most underdeveloped countries on the planet. But of course O’Toole is playing with “darkest” here. He wants you to believe that Ahern and Hutch have a colonialist’s view of Africa and its people. This is Ahern who oversaw Ireland’s first surge of immigration.

    Their underlying suggestion is that inward migration should be a sieve that lets through the foreign workers who will do the lowly jobs we’re too posh for, but blocks those who are fleeing conflicts in Africa from seeking asylum.

    O’Toole’s lame joke about Lanigan’s Ball racism is that Ahern and Hutch don’t want immigration but know that without it we’d be poor, so they’re in and they’re out.

    But what else should our immigration policy be? It is about balancing the benefits with the negatives.

    There is plenty of anti-black prejudice in Ireland but it is not structural: we don’t have a history of black slavery as the United States does, of genocide against an indigenous black population as Australia does or of colonial overlordship in Africa and the Caribbean as Britain does. It’s hard to present as an explicit political offering the position that Ahern and Hutch are hinting at: that we welcome immigrants so long as they are not black.

    O’Toole is a smart man, but this is one of the stupidest things I’ve read. He is so convinced by his ideology that he believes only a “structural” cause could sustain anti-black racism. He just cannot conceive that the fact that certain cultures bring with them certain behaviours will be more than enough to sustain an aversion to that kind of immigration.

    The article is dripping with contempt for the woman who filmed Ahern. He calls her a “table d’hote xenophobe”, “an equal-opportunities nativist”, and refers to her “full-monty naked hostility to foreigners”. He says “the woman’s big narrative” is that “the Irish are being replaced on their own little island and that Irish culture is ‘gone’” but dismisses her and her kind by saying “they don’t really have much of a clue about Us – their grasp on Irish history and culture is weak”.

    Fintan O’Toole has churned out many of these supercilious deconstructions, but they’ve become stale. Right when he most needs them to have their effect, they fall flat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭enricoh


    The media are busy circling the wagons, going around in ever decreasing circles- entirely dependent on government ads, vat cut etc.

    78% in a recent survey said we had taken in too many immigrants. God knows what the figure would be for refugees. I wonder what percentage of articles on immigration in MSM reflect the views of that 78%? At a stretch 1 in 10 articles I reckon.

    The journalists/ activists best get the CV polished up for government gigs before the next round of layoffs as no one is buying their bias anymore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,938 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Just saw the video also, and I know these posts will be deleted soon.

    But, this was total excessive force, my god how could any human survive the weight of multiple persons on top of them with knees and full bodyweight on his neck and head.. What's sad also is no by-stander tried to intervene to save him. I hope those involved will be arrested and a full investigation take place…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,195 ✭✭✭✭Geuze




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