N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

KrisW1001 · 07-08-2025 10:44AM

I actually agree with that, and I should have been less terse. “No”, a flyover junction is not possible here if one wants Lakeview to be a full-movement junction, but yes, a flyover alone would work. (Bad news for that house just by the roundabout, though)

I think a 2+2 will fit without much extra land-take. As I said in post #259, (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123699061/#Comment_123699061), if Lakeview were retained as a junction with N25, then the only possible access it could have with N25 would be the Cork side. (Which is fair enough, as that’s where the majority of traffic comes and goes from).

I think keeping Lakeview as a partial interchange is needed because N25 is the only crossing of the Owenacurra river south of Midleton, and the other crossings are at the northern end of the town: if you blocked Lakeview, you’d create higher volumes through Midleton.

Re, your question about CPOs, there’s a block of three houses that comprise Lakeview Terrace, and they look like they could be listed structures (they’re very Georgian in proportions).

There’s also a quite expensive house built just south of the road, which should never, ever have been granted planning so close to a major national road, but this is Cork, I suppose… (I’m not suggesting any impropriety here, just the general habit of Cork County Council planners completely ignoring their own rules when granting planning)

niloc1951 · 07-08-2025 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123703190#Comment_123703190

I can see the difficulties with a 2+2 flyover, but the same problems shouldn't present with a 1+1 flyover, leaving the remaining overall road width to provide single-lane access to/from the Lake View roundabout as it currently exists.

AI Says:

An overpass bridge over a roundabout allows for continuous traffic flow on a major road (the "mainline") while vehicles can access the roundabout for local connections or to cross over/under the mainline. This design improves traffic flow and safety by separating high-speed, through traffic from slower, turning traffic. Here's a more detailed explanation:

Purpose:The primary goal is to reduce congestion and enhance safety at a busy intersection. By elevating the main road, the overpass bridge allows through traffic to bypass the roundabout, minimizing delays and potential conflicts.
Functionality:The roundabout remains functional for local traffic, providing access to roads intersecting with the main road. Drivers can enter the roundabout from the local roads and then either cross the main road via the roundabout, or exit onto the local roads on the other side.
Traffic Separation:The overpass effectively separates the higher-speed, through traffic on the main road from the slower, turning traffic using the roundabout.
Types of Interchanges:Roundabout interchanges, which often include overpass bridges, are frequently found where a highway or freeway meets a minor road.
Benefits:This design can lead to:
- Reduced congestion and delays on the main road.
- Improved traffic flow and safety at the intersection.
- Increased capacity for both through and local traffic.
- Lower risk of accidents due to traffic separation

hans aus dtschl · 07-08-2025 12:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702171#Comment_123702171

I would say they're even conflicting propositions. We don't really WANT to encourage people doing daily commuting from Youghal or Whitegate to Cork. People are mostly doing these unsustainable commutes out of necessity.

We'd do better to facilitate the few who must do that commute by providing options for those who would happily either live closer to the city or work closer to home. Youghal is pretty much a black spot for employment (and for investment) and that needs to be sorted.

We've got a situation where towns like Cloyne, Castlemartyr, Killeagh, Ballycotton etc (even Ladysbridge) are becoming dormitory towns due to housing issues closer to the city. People leave these places in the morning, return in the evening, and spend time stuck at Lakeview (or Harper's Island!) in between. I'm sure everyone welcomes the new arrivals but it'd be better for everyone if these were places where people lived and conducted daily life.

Fixing Midleton via a distributor would take pressure off Lakeview both directly and indirectly. I'd say it's equal priority (or higher) for me than Castlemartyr and Killeagh bypasses. Next highest priority for me would be Lakeview itself. And then the next priority would be the two bypasses mentioned (or a full N25 scheme to Youghal).

And obviously off-forum (this is roads!) we'd also ideally improve sustainable transport, healthcare, education, employment etc options for all those towns and villages. Getting a few more vehicles through to Lakeview isn't going to be enough, and it looks like there isn't enough space for a flyover. I also explored the idea of a tunnel here a few pages back, but again space is the big issue.

Same thing as Oatencake: there's stuff built all around the junction. I don't think we really want N road junctions in these locations any more.

hans aus dtschl · 07-08-2025 12:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123703190#Comment_123703190

I think it's doable without the sliproads yep. The problem is that people want both, so a but like a one-lane version of Kinsale Road or something like that. It just doesn't seem to fit.

KrisW1001 · 07-08-2025 01:12PM

@niloc1951 please don't post AI "opinions"... the thing is not an authority, and the answers you get from it depend more on how you word your question than the actual facts.

niloc1951 · 10-08-2025 02:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123703840#Comment_123703840

Okay, so what's wrong with the opinion expressed regarding the benefits and desirability of separating through traffic from local traffic at a roundabout?

KrisW1001 · 10-08-2025 03:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123711272#Comment_123711272

But it’s not an opinion; It’s a semi-randomised response generated by a machine to be a reasonable match for the prompt you gave it. Ask it to argue against the topic, and you’ll get the same plausible-sounding slop, but biased in a different direction.

The worst thing is that it’s empty waffle. Every single point in that response is bland, and something that everyone reading this thread already knows. We all know what an overpass does, and why you’d use one. Overpasses in general are not an interesting topic of discussion. The only interesting question about overpasses in this thread is how you’d fit one in at this location, and what compromises would need to be made, if any.

You’re a regular poster here, and you’ve got plenty to say, and I’m happy to discuss it. But padding your posts out with guff from a machine is just going to get you ignored.

niloc1951 · 10-08-2025 06:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123711301#Comment_123711301

😐️☣️

Gunner3629 · 26-11-2025 03:37PM

Still years away but atleast the just-released transport plan has official mention of it.

N25 Midleton to Youghal (Castlemarytr and Killeagh bypasses).

Current Stage: Strategic Assessment & Preliminary Business Case (2025)
Next Approval Gate: AG1 by 2029
Procurement: Commence by 2030
Construction: Not yet awarded
Estimated Cost Range: €100m–€250m

Page 28

https://www.rte.ie/documents/news/2025/11/ndp-review-2025-sectoral-investment-plan-for-transport.pdf

niloc1951 · 26-11-2025 05:02PM

Next Approval Gate: AG1 by 2029

How is it taking four years to finalise the Preliminary Business Case (AG1)?

This project is at least 30 years overdue, and the historic data on the delays, congestion and pollution resulting from the ongoing situation should provide the necessary business case in short order; why will it take four years?

Not to mention the two further Approval Gates, or should we say hurdles, which must be overcome before we get to 'Implementation'

AG2 - Detailed Business Case, Project Execution Plan and Procurement Strategy

and AG3 - Final Business Case

jimbob955 · 27-11-2025 09:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124020893#Comment_124020893

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124020620#Comment_124020620

Does this mean no train expansion to Youghal so? Is it one or the either?

KrisW1001 · 27-11-2025 10:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124022703#Comment_124022703

There’s no viable business case for a rail expansion to Youghal. Mogeely would be the limit, and then only if it was a P+R station easily accessible from the N25 Castlemartyr bypass.

niloc1951 · 27-11-2025 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124022957#Comment_124022957

Think ahead. With the planned light rail system for the city passing through Kent Station, plus key bus routes, a rail extension to Youghal would provide a sustainable transport option for Castlemartyr/Mogeely/Lady's Bridge, Killeagh and Youghal as viable areas for high-density housing development areas catering for our projected population growth.

Remember, nobody could see a business case for a three-lane JLT back in the 1990's which in infrastructure planning terms was the recent past; in fact, some felt the business case only warranted a single bore one lane each way option.

Also, there was no business case for grade-separated intersections along the N40, and within a few years, the whole thing had to have the roundabouts ripped out and grade-separated junctions put in.

If there is one thing we're excellent at, it is short-term planning of infrastructure requirements. Let's half do it now on the cheap and fix it a few years later at great inconvenience and for treble the cost.

Rant over

KrisW1001 · 28-11-2025 09:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124024817#Comment_124024817

I am thinking ahead. I proposed Mogeely as an extension point, and it meets most of your “sustainable transport option” benefits, particulary in the areas south of Castlemartyr which actually have a high population, but without spending a fortune.

Look at road traffic - Youghal-Killeagh is busy but never very congested; real delays arrive after Castlemartyr as the much larger flows from the south have joined the trip to Cork. If your town can’t even stuff a single-carriagway road with cars every morning, a commuter railway will not pay its way. A two-track railway has a maximum free-flowing capacity of about ten times that of a 2+2 motorway (16 tph, by 2 directions, by 1100 passengers per train, 18 hours a day = max 633,600 passengers carried, equivalent to 500,000 AADT - yes, this is available capacity not used capacity, so is the motorway’s), and costs about twice as much to build (with large operating costs after). If a place can’t justify a motorway, it definitely can’t justify a railway.

The problem with the Youghal railway is that it’s a dead-end stop with a sparsely populated hinterland. There’s no onward routing for a railway into Co. Waterford, so Youghal alone must provide the passengers. And it can’t. Not now, and not ever. The original Cork-Youghal railway bankrupted its owners, despite its very lucrative Cobh branch (now the Cork-Cobh railway) - and that was in the days of no competition from cars (and package holidays: Youghal was a popular resort town)

Youghal today is a town of 9,000 people or so. Even if you double the population of Youghal to 18,000, it’s still so far away from any other population centre that the rail line to Cork will not be viable. (Killeagh has a population of just 1,000 people - in only seems bigger because it takes a long time to get through). It’s just not in a well-populated area, and at 50 km, it’s right on the limit of what would be considered for a commuter railway anyway: Dublin Drogheda is about the same distance, but Drogheda is a town of 45,000 people, and it’s on a rail line connecting Belfast and Dublin.

Your road examples are not really relevant here - those projects were built in a very different Ireland, and only the JLT was built without significant budget cuts (I also do not buy into the idea that the tunnel needs more lanes, but that’s off topic here). Regarding the Cork South Ring, the Ireland of 2025 is the P95+ case of from any prediction model made in 1990: a complete outlier, with a 35% higher population, and over double the car ownership rate, and near full employment, and high household incomes. Unless you grew up before 1990, it’s really hard to imagine what this country looked like, and how mediocre its prospects looked.

Gunner3629 · 28-11-2025 10:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124025232#Comment_124025232

What about the argument that rail to Youghal – and public transport in general – shouldn’t be judged purely on making a profit?

Public transport is about sustainability, reducing car dependency, and improving quality of life. Roads like Castlemartyr, Lakeview, and JLT are already under pressure, and adding more cars isn’t a long-term solution.

While it’s fair to say routes shouldn’t be exorbitantly loss-making – that's totally fair - the goal should absolutely not be about profit. If all government infrastructure decisions were based on profit alone, we wouldn’t have regional airports like Donegal or Farranfore, or many rural bus routes. These exist because connectivity matters more.

Rail projects should be evaluated on social, environmental, and economic benefits combined, not just recovering money spent. Every car taken off the road reduces congestion, emissions, and the need for costly road expansions. If we only build infrastructure where it pays its way, rural Ireland will always lose out.

KrisW1001 · 28-11-2025 11:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124025410#Comment_124025410

It’s not about profit at all, it’s about the best use of resources: providing the greatest social benefit for the money spent. A train to Youghal just doesn’t improve the lives of enough people to justify the cost of rebuilding it. Spending the same money on anything else public-transport related will have a bigger impact.

Extending to Mogeely allows for a reduction in car commuting along N25 into Cork, especially as any bypass of Castlemartyr will bring N25 closer to the old line. Mogeely needs just 8 km of restored track - 35% of the distance for about 80% of the benefits of a whole Youghal-Midleton extension. Even a station at Killeagh wouldn’t be useful as a P+R as it would end up being much further from N25 than at present, as the new N25 will most likely run far to the south of Killeagh. So that leaves Youghal as the only reason to extend to Youghal.

Youghal has a population of 9,500 people. How many of those are: adults, working in Cork, commuting daily? Not many. Usually you could argue that people from around the town could also benefit, but the location of Youghal in a pocket makes it a poor place to get to in order to change to a train, even if there was any large population to the town’s east or north, and there just isn’t.

The only way you could justify the spend on extending the railway to Youghal would be as part of a phased plan to bring a direct line from Cork to Waterford. That, unfortunately, is not viable either, as the power of Victorian-era entrepreneurism screwed us by building two diverging, and bad, alignments between these cities (Cork-Youghal; Waterford-Lismore), so there’s nothing to restore, and any good link would require about 80 km of brand new alignment. (If we’re getting our crayons out, I’d route such a new line as Youghal, Dungarvan, Tramore, Waterford - but it’ll never happen).

hans aus dtschl · 28-11-2025 11:29AM

Rail to Youghal should not happen now.

It's not about profit it's about lost opportunity. The enormous effort to reopen that line detracts from IÉ's ability to invest elsewhere, and they themselves have little interest in pursuing it for that reason. Without any significant ridership in the short to medium term it's effectively a white elephant or vanity project which drags down the effectiveness of the current Midleton line. The smart play is, in the next LADP (2027?) to propose an extension to Mogeely and a SDZ in Mogeely.

On top of this, reduce Midleton P&R car park and develop on the land to produce rent-roll and ridership and create a new P&R nearer to Roxborough East of Midleton as part of the Midleton Eastern/Northern bypass extension scheme. Maybe a P&R at Mogeely too.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that a lot of the people pushing for "rail to Youghal" do not currently use rail, possibly don't use any public transport, and possibly don't understand the limitations of good public transport systems. It's a bit like the "make public transport free" argument: a seemingly straightfoward suggestion which has subtle but catastrophic negative impacts and is very popular argument amongst those who don't avail of the system and won't in future.

KrisW1001 · 28-11-2025 12:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124025681#Comment_124025681

Yes, I agree. When Luxembourg made its public transport free, ridership increased, but traffic stayed the same. What happened was people who used to walk shifted to using PT more, but drivers stayed in their cars: it’s never about the cost, it’s about convenience - or sometimes just perceived convenience (car commuters into a city never seem to count the time they spend hunting or queing up for parking as part of their journey…).

A rail line to Youghal would not be convenient enough for enough people to justify them using it. You wouldn’t save much time driving from the western side of Youghal into the town (almost nobody lives on the eastern side of Youghal), parking at the station, waiting for the train, and then going by rail into Cork, even if your destination was within the fairly limited catchment of the railway within Cork itself.

hans aus dtschl · 28-11-2025 02:27PM

The next LADP could do an awful lot of "daydreaming" to make rail more viable.

I would say the real need is more investment (of all kinds) in Youghal itself. More jobs needed, more education opportunities needed, more local transport infrastructure needed etc. Having everyone in Youghal commuting to Cork is a poor spatial strategy. There's no reason Youghal couldn't be a thriving town in its own right but there seems to be no serious ambition to make it anything more than a commuter town.

The gap between Killeagh and Youghal is long and I would suggest creating a major strategic destination on that stretch when the time comes. And maybe something like a Center Parks on Claycastle Beach while we're at it, becaus we're talking long-term here.

At the moment even just within and around Youghal, everyone drives for everything. It's fairly inhospitable for people who don't drive. Public transport could follow more easily if the town itself wasn't dysfunctional. A proper public realm scheme that makes the main street more than just a car park maybe. Link the new shopping sprawl at the North of the town to Main Street. Link Main Street to front strand. Link front strand to Seafield via the greyhound track Etc. All really simple things. You couldn't really leave a child cycle to school in Youghal right now (and this is borne out in the CSO stats, out of 2,032 people attending school in Youghal, THREE of them cycle. It's an incredible statistic.

I might be one of the few people on here who's cycled around Youghal lots of times and it's reasonably uncomfortable. There's even few enough cafe's in town which is a bit of a benchmark for footfall.

If you live in or near Youghal and have a car (which most people do) then why would you drive to the train (wait on the platform, pay, get to the station on the opposite end and walk in the rain to the destination) You need to start with the premise that some people can potentially survive in Youghal without a car and work forward from there.

Some Youghal town stats:

8% walk to work, 16% walk to school.

1% cycle to work, 0% cycle to school.

40% of people travel less than 15 mins (fully local). 55% of people travel less than 30 mins.

Around 30% of people are travelling between 30-90 mins. Those are the people going to or near the city. It's around 1500 people.

And maybe people think I'm being overly harsh here, so let's look at Dungarvan:

16% walk to work, 25% walk to school.

4% cycle to work, 7% cycle to school.

55% of people travel less than 15 mins, 71% less than 30 mins.

Both towns are quite car-dependent but in one of the two towns 0% of people cycle and in the other it's 5%. In one of the two 12% of people walk and in the other it's 19%. In one of the two towns, far more people are essentially active and local and can be won over to using a local public transport system. For Youghal in a dream scenario maybe you could get 1,500 onto the train. Midleton is doing around 1,000 right now.

TLDR: the demand in Youghal is low and in a town where almost nobody is willing to walk (let alone cycle) and few need to travel long distance, you will not see much train ridership. There are no signs of efforts to increase demand in Youghal. So extending the line out from Midleton and growing the demand from the West towards the East is the only show in town. Mogeely first, then Killeagh, then the long lonely stretch to Youghal.

hans aus dtschl · 28-11-2025 02:33PM

So yeah, sorry for that big long thesis there.

And since this is the "Roads/N25" forum, I'd like to see the Midleton East/North distributor with a new P&R ASAP.

And while we're at it, close some of the Lakeview movements.

And a Castlemartyr bypass, including full greenway link between Killeagh and Mogeely. And a proper N25 junction scheme to allow the future growth of Mogeely, Castlemartyr and the gap between the two.

gooseman12 · 28-11-2025 04:38PM

Excuse my complete ignorance, but what are the works going on around both Castlemartyr and killeagh as seen on google maps below? Are they some sort of relief road, or something else entirely?