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Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    As a Corkonian, I’d have to say CART is a terrible name! It would be constantly mocked by people all over the country and in Cork too.

    Plus cart invokes the idea of slowness in people’s heads, the idea of a slow horse drawn cart meandering down the road. It invokes the opposite thoughts of speed that DART invokes. There is no way Irish Rail will want to use this.

    Perhaps simply “Cork Rail” or “Cork Metro Rail” or “Metro Rail Cork”. Our just “Cork Commuter Rail” like it is now. It isn’t like there is really a branded name for the current commuter rail services in Cork.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭thomil


    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it needs to be branded as the Cork Area Transit System!

    Untitled Image

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LOL, you have my vote.

    Though I think they may have thought of that, CMATS (Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy) seems to have gone out of it's way to avoid it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    There is a brand, albeit a very prosaic one: “Commuter”. That’s what IÉ calls its non-electric local train services.

    DART would actually be a great name, except that even if you decide it’s now a generic term, everyone knows that was originally an acronym that started with the totally unacceptable (to Cork people) word “Dublin”.

    I’d avoid anything ”Metro” because of what’s (hopefully) being built in Dublin.

    There’s always “S Train”. Yes, this is originally German, and there it means “schnell”(fast) or ”Stadt”(city) depending on who you listen to, but it has also been used outside Germany, even in countries where the words for “city”, “frequent” or “fast” don’t start with the letter S: Copenhagen, Prague and Milan all have “S” networks.

    The Irish for “arrow” is saighead, if you want a tenuous link.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,365 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    C-Train or C-Traein might be a good option with C being for Cathair, but in Cork people would tell you it stands for Cork/Corcaigh and in Dublin they'd tell you the C was for the shape of the original line around Dublin Bay and Limerick or Belfast they'd say nothing at all.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Why not call it 'Arrow' as that would convey speed and directness.

    My mother was always amused by American tourist to Cork could not get their head around the buses that had the destination as 'Cob-H' as they had no idea how to pronounce the trailing H.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭pigtown


    CCR (Cork Commuter Rail), like DLR, is easy enough to say



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While I wouldn't object to S-Train, I think most Irish people outside of this forum wouldn't have a clue what that means or it's history.

    I get your point on Copenhagen, Prague and Milan, however I'd note they border German speaking countries (sort of in Milans case) and I suspect most people in these cities would have been pretty familiar with S-Bahn next door in Germany.

    Worth noting that while DSB have never said what the S stands for, but "Stads" is the Danish word for city, so that lines up with one of the German names for S-Bahn, Stadtbahn or City Train in German, so I'd argue works quiet well for them and is very in line with S-Bahn.

    Milan, they say the S stands for Surburan, "suburbano" in Italian, which fits the type of service too.

    Prague the system is actually called Esko Prague, but you are correct, they use S in the symbol and for the line numbers, S1, S2, etc. I'd say it comes back more to their closeness to Germany.

    In all the above examples, I think most people in these cities knew what an S-Bahn is and they came up with an excuse to fit it into their own system and language. I don't think Irish people have the same general knowledge or connection with S-Bahn/S-Train. They know what a DART is, but not a S-Bahn.

    Metro, with 5 minutes frequency CACR isn't far off a Metro, more so then the Trams in Manchester, but yes perhaps best not to confuse it with Metrolink. Though plenty of examples of electrified heavy rail systems in the North America being called "Metro"!

    Just to be clear, I'm just spit balling, I don't really disagree with any name other then CART, but it is clear no one has come up with a name for it yet that really jumps out.

    EDIT: I do sort of like Arrow, I know it has been used before, but could be used for all the non Dublin electric commuter rail systems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Actually, on thinking about it, I really like what I called the “tenuous” connection to saighaid and its link to arrow/dart, but I accept that no Irish word containing a -gh- consonant could be used as a brand-name in a country that receives so many English monoglot visitors. (Every time someone says “droggeda”, a puppy dies; I’d hate to add "sag-head” to that list of shame)

    However, that word’s English translation, “Arrow”, could be resurrected. It was the branding used for all non-DART commuter service in the past, and I believe the heritage-repainted 2600 DMU pair still runs on the Cóbh line today (IÉ Class 2600 in original Arrow Livery at Cork Kent.)

    So, if there were a vote, my vote would be for “Arrow”, and for the lines to be numbered “A1”, “A2”, etc (I don’t see more than three in Cork) . Dublin can keep DART, of course, but Arrow should be the name used elsewhere.

    __


    A note on Prague: I see you’ve been reading the Wikipedia page… I should go and edit that, because it’s slightly misleading. “Esko” really doesn’t mean anything more than “the letter S” (the Czech Wiki page states this directly: V češtině slovo „esko“ znamená označení písmene S / In Czech the word “esko” means the [sign/mark/designation] of the letter S), so while they gave it a name, that name is the letter. The reason why they don’t use “S” alone is because s is already a word in Czech, meaning “with”/“accompanied by”.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The more I think about it the more I like restricting the Arrow brand. It matches well with DART, both something you throw/fire, but also invokes thoughts of speed.

    "Sprinter Trains" might be another option is you want an excuse to call it S-Train. Sprinter also invokes speed and I know it is a brand name used for S-Bahn type services (sort of) in the Netherlands.

    BTW I've actually spent a lot of time in Prague, I work with a great team there, been there many times and even lived there for a few months at one stage. Lovely city and people. My Czech though is very poor, so thanks for the explanation on Esko, that makes a lot more sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    What about "Piléar" if we wanted to go as Gaelige?

    Bullet - In theme with "Arrow/Dart"

    Secondary definition as "Pillar", it's "supporting the cities"

    And pronunciation shouldn't escape the Sasanachs

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ”Sprint” isn’t bad either, but really I’m not wedded to “S [word for railway]”, so long as there’s a clear branding that differentiates these very regular turn-up-and-go services from the long-distance trains, and that it’s amenable to being used with a route numbering system. ”Arrow” fits that bill nicely.

    On Prague, it’s a place that I love but it makes me sad to see how decades of corruption has turned the city centre into a juvenile, tacky shithole of a theme park, where you can buy fake cannabis easier than a loaf of bread, and where you’ll never hear a word of Czech spoken. Plus there’s nonsense like the endless “classic car tours” in fake classic cars, trucks selling those horrible “chimney cakes” (not Czech) everywhere, absinthe (it’s not Fernet, so it’s not Czech) or, the most incredible of all: the Red Army surplus shops.. How would we feel about shops selling British Army gear on O’Connell Street? Come in, come in, we’ve got the Black and Tan stuff at the back.. I feel sorry for anyone going there without a Czech guide: it really is the most tourist-mugging city I’ve ever been to (yes, I’ve been to Amsterdam - not even close).

    But, and dragging this back towards a topic ;), the City has a really good approach to its Bus, Tram and Metro system: a full-time engineering department designs extensions to lines, so that when money becomes available, a set of projects to the value of the available funding can immediately be retrieved and fed into the legal process. TII would do well to copy the model.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭neiljung


    Too much of a KK association to be acceptable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 834 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    I emailed them for a link as it said, and I got no reply, so not surprised there weren't many atendees if others faced the same issue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭cantalach


    I take it you’re not a classic rock fan then :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Limerick74


    I got a link emailed to me no problem. Could be stuck in spam or junk folder.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Mine was stuck in Junk folder too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Some excellent drone footage from DroneHawk of the double tracking between Glounthane and Midleton

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2owkfWuaS8



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Another great video from Dronehawk showing significant progress on the Harpers Island to Midleton double tracking project.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Funding to be announced today for Phase 2 including the 8 stations for delivery between now and 2030. Also included is two Park and Rides

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41749095.html



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 428 ✭✭Frostybrew


    Excellent news. Blackpool and Dunkettle to proceed first. If it's completed by 2030, it will be 10 years ahead of what was envisaged by CMATS. This service will be comparable to the RER in Paris and the Elizabeth line in London (even having it's own underground section 😉).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭jimbob955


    Is it the entire project will be completed by 2030? Or just the Blackpool and Dunkettle?

    That's incredible, I can't see double tracking, 8 stations, and 2 P&Rs all completed in 5 years though!? Can you?

    It will be transformative for Cork, would be amazing if they could build more across to Blarney down to Carrigaline etc. Obviously not.

    Similar type project needs to be rolled out to Limerick and Galway as well



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    In fairness, the double tracking is under construction so will be done well before 2030.

    As for the 8 stations and the 2 P&Rs, it's a set of glorified sheds and some tarmac. It should be well possible to get done before 2030 if funding is there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭thomil


    I think Blackpool and Dunkettle will be the quickest, simply because they don't require any land acquisition or changes to the track layout. From what I was told during the public consultation events, they don't even need a railway order and can get going as soon as the second consultation is completed. Since it's basically just a matter of building two platforms on the outside of the tracks and a bridge over the track, construction shouldn't take too long. The additional landscaping works for the Blackpool station might take a bit longer though.

    Most of the other new stations aren't really that complex either, if we're truly honest. The biggest thing for those is going to be land acquisition, but they're not complex from an engineering point of view. Remember, these new station locations have been planned for for quite some time, the recent reworking of the signalling systems in Cork was made with those new stations already in mind, so there won't be any more changes to the track layout in most cases, with the apparent exception of Blarney station, which will get an additional passing loop and island platform. Once the land acquisition is sorted, it'll simply be a case of doing what I already outlined for Blackpool and Dunkettle, none of which requires any special engineering know-how.

    Honestly, the biggest time sink, apart from land acquisition, is going to be electrification and the building of the new depot. Everything else should be done relatively quickly.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Where exactly is the Dunkettle station and P&R being planned to go? It's not obvious to me where the space and access is for it. I assume also it will be there primarily to service traffic coming from the M8 (there are already several stations further east for traffic from that direction) so somewhere around North Esk (sp?) would be the easiest for that traffic (coming off the first exit and going through the roundabouts).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭jimbob955


    Thanks for all the updates. Didn't know at all. That is incredible. I didn't think it would so fast. I just presumed it would roll into 10 years + like any other infrastructure project. I think it will be massive for Cork, for east cork and northside cork city. You wonder why not do this sooner? And hopefully something could be done next for Galway/Limerick? Could a similar type project work in these places?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭thomil


    from my understanding, and from the documents I grabbed at the consultation, Dunkettle station is going to be located at the old rail container terminal, which is already fully in CIE ownership. It has direct access to the N25 via the Little Island-East/North Esk exit, and a direct spur from the M8 via Dunkettle interchange.

    My understanding is that CIE have been working on planning behind the scenes for the better part of a decade at the very least, most likely a lot longer, as a lot of preparatory work was needed to even get the railway network down here into a condition where such an upgrade would even be possible. Upgrading signalling, closing of level crossings, none of this can happen overnight, whilst at the same time not being as "sexy" as new stations and trains. You couldn't simply have reopened, say Blackpool station ten years ago because the network simply wasn't ready.

    And neither were the trains for that matter. Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs), especially the tin cans currently operating on the cork suburban network, simply aren't suitable for high frequency commuter services. They don't accelerate fast enough. At the same time, purchasing a handful of dedicated EMUs only for operation on the Cork network would not have made operational sense, as it would have required dedicated, possibly incompatible, spare parts for maybe two dozen trains at most. It made more sense to wait until the replacement for the DART fleet was due to be ordered anyway and simply tag new trains for Cork onto that large order.

    Speaking of Dublin, another aspect of why this is happening now is that Irish Rail apparently sees the electrification of the Cork commuter network as simply the first phase of the electrification of the Cork-Dublin mainline. By getting the Cork network done relatively quickly, there seems to be an element of producing a showcase for government that electrifying the rest of the mainline isn't all that difficult. The current fleet of loco-hauled trains on the Cork-Dublin run is due for replacement within the foreseeable future and from what I've seen, the preference is to replace them either directly with EMUs or with diesel units that can be quickly converted to electric. That's also the reason why, according to a Swiss railway engineer I talked with at the event, the new system will be electrified at 15KV 16 Hz AC, the same standard that is used on mainlines and high speed lines in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and several other European countries.

    Now, I need to temper all of this with the fact that I'm not a railway engineer myself, nor am I involved in the project myself. I'm just a public transit nut (and general nutcase 🤪) with a lot of interest in railways. Having said that, the general feeling I got at the consultation event I attended is that there's an understanding at Irish Rail and CIE that this is a once in a generation chance to bring Cork's railways into the 21st century. As a result, there's a real fire to get this going and done sooner rather than later.

    As for Galway and Limerick, I vaguely remember reading that similar projects are in the pipeline for both cities, albeit on a smaller scale. I haven't really paid attention to that though, so someone else might be better suited to answer that.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭gooseman12


    From the irish rail website, Dunkettle Station (51.906575, -8.374954)

    So right about here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/N1dzGqtRazCk4gfb9



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yes exactly, Dunkettle station will be in North Esk. I'll try and upload the documentation later if I remember. They've been at this overall plan since at least 2002 yep but have been working directly on the design of the stations etc for a few years now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The fleet for Cork will be a 25kV 50hz version of the Dublin DART+ fleet, drawn from the same framework order. So apart from replacing the batteries and charger with a transformer + rectifier they will be identical so 95%+ parts commonality.

    The legacy German/Swiss 15kV 16.7hz system is a painful legacy, its good enough but complex to supply and needs heavier transformers, not even considered for use by Irish Rail



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