Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 22-10-2025 07:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123926465#Comment_123926465

More minutes than Paddy McCarthy has in professional rugby. Yet he’s in the squad

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 07:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123924853#Comment_123924853

It's an interesting exercise - I had a look here at the four provinces and current academies, and nominate the guys who are in your age brackets for the relevant positions: (age in brackets is age at 2027 RWC)

For clarity - I've picked this purely on the brackets above. It's kind of nonsensical as guys who've been getting selected already (Sam Prendergast, Tom Clarkson, Paddy McCarthy, Jack Boyle etc) are all too young for this team based on the age brackets nominated, similarly Jamie Osborne is too young for the 12 shirt etc.

Andrew Porter (31) - other options: Michael Milne (28), Josh Wycherley (28), Eric O'Sullivan (31), Callum Reid (28), Jeremy Loughman (32), Jordan Duggan (29)
Dan Sheehan (29) - other options: Ronan Kelleher (29), Diarmuid Barron (29), Dylan Tierney Martin (28), John McKee (27)
Tom O'Toole (29) - other options: Oli Jager (32), Roman Salanoa (29), Jack Aungier (28), Conor Bartley (32), Bryan O'Connor (28)
Joe McCarthy (26) - other options: Niall Murray (28), Oisin Dowling (30), Brian Deeny (27), Tom Ahern (27)
James Ryan (31) - other options: Matthew Dalton (28), Fineen Wycherley (29)
Ryan Baird (28) - other options: Alex Soroka (26), Cian Prendergast (27), Cormac Izuchukwu (27), David McCann (27)
John Hodnett (28) - other options: Scott Penny (28), Alex Kendellen (26), Shamus Hurley Langton (27), Oisin McCormack (26), Sean O'Brien (27), Sean Reffell (28)
Caelan Doris (29) - other options: Gavin Coombes (29), Sean Jansen (28)
Craig Casey (28) - other options: Matthew Devine (25), Ben Murphy (26), Nathan Doak (25), Ethan Coughlan (25), Cormac Foley (27), Paddy Patterson (28), Colm Reilly (28), Conor McKee (26)
Jack Crowley (27) - other options: Harry Byrne (28), Ciaran Frawley (29), Jake Flannery (26), James Humphreys (26), Tony Butler (25), David Hawkshaw (28)
Shayne Bolton (27) - other options: Andrew Osborne (24, Josh Kenny (24), Ruben Moloney (23), Diarmuid Kilgallen (27), Shay McCarthy (24), Andrew Smith (27)
Dan Kelly (26) - other options: Sean O'Brien (29), Cathal Forde (26), Stewart Moore (28)
Jamie Osborne (25) - other options: Fionn Gibbons (25), Shane Jennings (26), Byron Ralston (27), Ben Carson (25), James Hume (29), Jude Postlethwaite (25)
Finn Treacy (23) - other options: Ben Moxham (26), Ben Gibson (23), Lukas Kenny (23), Aitzol King (25), Chay Mullins (25)
Michael Lowry (29) - other options: Ethan McIlroy (27)

Bench: Ronan Kelleher, Michael Milne, Oli Jager, Tom Ahern, Cormac Izuchukwu, Matthew Devine, Harry Byrne, Diarmuid Kilgallen

shootermacg · 22-10-2025 08:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123926465#Comment_123926465

Don't even know you're doing it? Like some sort of reflex is it?

Clegg · 22-10-2025 08:15AM

Gus McCarthy was the Ireland u20 captain when they won the Grand Slam and got to the World Cup final. He's been known about for a long time and his progress has been tracked. He was initially brought in as training cover in the midst of an injury crisis, impressed further and got a shot with Ireland.

Kelly is an IQ centre from Manchester. We obviously knew something about him as he played u20's for us as well albeit back in 2020. It shouldn't be that surprising that he hasn't been named in an Ireland squad after a few matches.

Former Former Former · 22-10-2025 08:45AM

I like the look of Kelly but the fact that he got one cap for England back in 2021 and never featured again is something worth noting, but he is still only 24.

The A game against Spain is a great opportunity to bring him into the wider set-up and see what he's about, and others too.

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 09:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927031#Comment_123927031

I'm not a fan at all though of these kind of one-off A games like the Spain game (or the England A game last season).

At least the EI Tours you've three games to build a bit of cohesion and combinations. Here you'll have a thrown together squad of guys who'll have never played together before (and likely never will as a group again), and everyone is just bursting to show what they individually can do.

Not hugely conducive to players putting their best foot forward.

Red Silurian · 22-10-2025 09:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927111#Comment_123927111

I think the main issue with the EI tours when they happened was the timing, if the EI tour happened at the same time as the November internationals you'd have a better chance. Bringing 40 odd players down to SA straight away after their summer break is more disorienting for them than an A game in November I'd say although I agree a once off provides little in terms of development

Podge_irl · 22-10-2025 09:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123926808#Comment_123926808

Sure. I assume Kelly will play against Japan or Spain (though the latter seems pointless). Particularly with the injuries at centre.

I just think calling him a leader in Munster is a bit hyperbolic.

Bart97 · 22-10-2025 09:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123924853#Comment_123924853

Also worth noting that it doesn’t have to be 1-15 that perfectly matches this. If you can get 10-12 of the XV in this bracket it would be great.

Former Former Former · 22-10-2025 09:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927111#Comment_123927111

No, but it's something. We can't call all the players we want into the test squad, and even if we spot one or two likely candidates in the A squad, it's not a wasted effort.

I suppose it depends how much time they get together. They could call them to Carton for a few days next week while the test squad is in Chicago.

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 09:47AM

Balls.ie (not the best source for rugby content it's fair to say) have a piece up at the moment of the best Irish XV of players not selected for this test window (of those healthy for selection).

The team (15-9,1-8): Mike Lowry, Andrew Smith, Hugh Gavin, Dan Kelly, Jordan Larmour, Harry Byrne, Ben Murphy, Michael Milne, Tom Stewart, Scott Wilson, Fineen Wycherley, Darragh Murray, Max Deegan, Alex Kendellen (pretty sure he isn't fit and available for selection), Gavin Coombes

My biggest takeaway from this was that it's relatively accurate - I would probably have a few different selections in there maybe, but, the bigger one, is there aren't that many guys there who you would argue would be game changers at the next level.

I'd argue of that whole list of players, it's probably only Gavin Coombes who is genuinely unfortunate to miss out, and there is an argument that guys like Michael Milne, Ben Murphy, Dan Kelly will be in the mix in time, Harry Byrne might show this season he's a contender for the #3 10 shirt etc.

But, overall, as relatively uninspiring as the Irish squad is, I just don't see a huge glut of talent to dramatically improve it?

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 09:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927253#Comment_123927253

Yeah I'm not opposed to having it at all obviously, just wish there was an opportunity to tack on another game or two at that level during this window.

Seems frustrating to have so many Irish professional rugby players playing almost no rugby for a month or so after this weekend.

Clegg · 22-10-2025 10:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927254#Comment_123927254

Milne won't get into squads if he continues to struggle at the scrum. Leinster's is fairly good these days tbf, but that only serves to put Porter and even Paddy McCarthy further ahead.

I think Deegan's and Byrne's time has been and gone. I'm a fan of both as players, but they've been given big games to show what they can do and neither has impressed. Same with Larmour as well really. Although he had some bright moments against Munster before getting injured.

Of those lads mentioned yeah it's probably only Coombes that could realistically be of value to an Ireland panel. A player not mentioned above is Matthew Devine. Quite like him as a scrumhalf.

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 10:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927316#Comment_123927316

I agree on Deegan - think there are just too many good options there for him to be in the international mix.

On Harry Byrne - I'm not going to write him off just yet. He's still only 26 (he's 8 months older than Jack Crowley), and he has all the physical talents required to be an international quality out half.

We'll learn everything we need to know about him this season, because he is going to play a lot of minutes at 10 this year (if, and a big if historically with Harry) he can stay healthy. I'd be happy to make the call on him then.

I'd see zero merit though in starting him for the A game v Spain - that looks a game made for Jack Murphy to get a chance (possibly with his brother at scrum half).

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 10:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927204#Comment_123927204

Yeah, I agree timing hasn't been ideal - I just meant at least on the EI tour you got 3 games to form a more fulsome picture of a player and more time on training, in addition to just letting the coaches know more about the character and the application of a player etc from being in a tour environment.

A one-off scratch A game probably only sees a team train a handful of times.

TRC10 · 22-10-2025 10:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927204#Comment_123927204

That’s why you use summer and November games to test guys alongside experienced players. Give Boyle a start beside Sheehan and Furlong. Start Gavin/Forde/Kelly/Osborne alongside Ringrose. Start Ahern/Izzy in a back row with VDF and Doris etc etc. One, maybe two per game. I’ve no problem with us going all out to win the 6N every year. But use the July/November windows to test a few guys. The f*cking Earth won’t stop spinning like some think it will.

aloooof · 22-10-2025 11:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927254#Comment_123927254

I don't think the issue is even necessarily this level of player missing out. It's that when you do break into the squad, it can be difficult to get minutes.

For example, Coombes is the one you've mentioned as most unfortunate to miss out. He has 3 caps total. I think there's an obvious case he should have more over the last 4 seasons.

Timoney, in the squad, seems to be our back-up at 7. It looks like he had 80 mins vs Georgia last season, 0 minutes the previous season and 80 mins vs Fiji the previous season again? (And there's a decent chance we'd move Doris to 7 in a big game but that comes with it's own problems - I think I remember looking at stats before of Tier 1 games for 7, and iirc it's Vdf starting all of them bar 1 game for Doris? Something in that nature anyways). Now all of that speaks to VdF's robustness, which is a good thing. But I don't think it was necessary.

McCann is another who has been unlucky not to get more minutes in the last number of seasons, imo. Cian Prendergast in that bracket too. Stockdale also. Ahern is another, who's been unlucky with injuries but who I'd like to see feature more with what he brings. TOB now too.

Casey got all of 22 mins in the NZ, Arg and Aus games last season. 80 vs Fiji, but I think he needed more in the other games (and maybe would've gotten that in the 6N but for injury).

I'm not saying all of these guys should've been shipped in all at once, there's a balance to be struck here, that I think we're possibly getting wrong.

Doris played every minute in 4 games in last year's AI's. So did Tadhg Beirne. VdF started every game. Particularly during the Autumn games, I think we need a little more variation.

Former Former Former · 22-10-2025 11:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927254#Comment_123927254

I think it's a good illustration of the fundamental problem we will always face - we just don't have a very deep pool of players.

Maybe we could better use the players we do have but that is a deeply uninspiring XV

Red Silurian · 22-10-2025 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927438#Comment_123927438

But we aren't doing that, we're treating the November Internationals like they are a competition

FtD v2 · 22-10-2025 11:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927480#Comment_123927480

Coombes is the real outlier in this dataset, but at this point on him we have to just conclude that there is something more to that non-selection that those of us on the outside aren't aware of. I agree (and have been in agreement for some time) that his performances warrant inclusion in the wider squad, and while I'd rank him behind Doris and Conan for a must win game starting today, I don't think I'd rank another 8 ahead of him right now (even Gleeson who I'm very high on), and think he should have gotten more minutes over recent years.

Of the other guys you mentioned - I rate Dave McCann really highly, but to my knowledge he hasn't yet featured in even a training squad, and didn't make either EI tour or the A game v England. He's started this season strongly, and I'd love to see him involved against Spain.

I think on Ahern there has been a marked willingness / desire to include him, but his injuries at inopportune times have cost him dearly. He was called into the November squad back as far as 2021, and they intended to bring him on tour to SA in 2022 but injuries cost him both times. He was picked for the Ireland A squad in February and missed again through injury. He's not a guy I really think they can be criticised for hugely, as clearly they wanted to get him involved before now.

Cian Prendergast is relatively similar - due to play v Wales in 6N and withdrawn on the morning of the game with illness (similar in summer tour v Georgia).

I agree on the fact it was strange we used Doris & Beirne so much last November, especially v Fiji.

TomsOnTheRoof · 22-10-2025 11:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927480#Comment_123927480

Hodnett is another who's been very unlucky to miss out on a cap in recent years. Him and Kendellen mixed and matched last season but for me he's been the best openside behind Van der Flier for the past few seasons. He's a great carrier, strong over the ball, has a massive engine and is a very good link player (often used for plays off the back of the lineout). I think it's a lack of judgement on behalf of the Irish management that he's not been looked at and that they seem to be so invested in Kendellen. I think most Munster fans would have Hodnett ahead of him if they were asked.

TRC10 · 22-10-2025 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927528#Comment_123927528

Yeah I agree

aloooof · 22-10-2025 12:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927599#Comment_123927599

2022/23 and the start of last season, I was all on the Hodnett train, but since think I think Kendellen has closed the gap. And is probably closer to the mold of VdF, if that's what Farrell is looking for. But I'd agree, another good example.

sydthebeat · 22-10-2025 01:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927480#Comment_123927480

the coombes thing is weird, as its not exactly like he hasnt gotten the chance to shine in camp. heres a post from myself from previous.

coombes has been in 2021 6 nations camp, 2021 summer series squad, 2021 autumn nations squad, 2022 6 nations squad, 2022 autumn nations camp, 2023 6 nations camp, 2023 summer nations squad and 2023 RWC camp.

on top of that, Coombes was called into the ireland squad this year 2025 for the 6 nations ahead of round 3 game against wales, as cover for Doris. he was already in the 'A' squad during this competition. He was also obviously in the summer 2025 squad, and now hes in the Autumn 2025 nov series squad.

so i count that as 11 different Ireland camps (not counting A squads)

2024 here is the big outlier, not in any squad, and not featuring in the emerging ireland squad was a real head scratcher, unless you look at it as the coaches already knew what they needed to about him so he wasnt really an "emerging" player.

So its incredibly difficult to argue that he hasnt been given a chance to impress in camp. Maybe hes just that type of player who just performs best at game time, though he has mixed reviews in green when playing. Personally right now, i think we need to be moving on from Conan and i think Coombes is a very good ready replacement. He has an agricultural playing style that i think any team in the world could benefit from. SOB had the same, and paid for it with his body. Coombes luckily doesnt seem to share SOBs physical robustness issues.

Jump_In_Jack · 22-10-2025 04:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123924853#Comment_123924853

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123926876#Comment_123926876

I took a look as well, did it ever so slightly differently, I had a huge list made out at first but I decided to cut out it down to the most relevant players as likely options to keep it more realistic for having a good discussion around selection.
I've left out any players that aren't featuring regularly for their province (injury or not being selected), or have been around a while and haven't yet shown the quality required, just to cut to the chase a bit to make the selection options more clear.

Below is the current squad including recently injured players plus the 2 additional players called up, plus the four named unavailable injured players plus the three named to travel as cover.

(Playing number), Ideal current age, Name (Bold if will be outside prime age for RWC'27) (current age) - Other likely options around prime age-bracket that should realistically be in with a shout for RWC'27.

(1) 28, Porter (29), J Boyle (23), P McCarthy (22) - Loughman (30), Milne (26)
I think Milne and Loughman are going to be sharing the starting role this season for Munster, both have performed well so far this season. Loughman perhaps better at scrummaging, Milne defintely better in the loose. Can only assume Farrell sees something special in Boyle and McCarthy to elevate them above those two. It might just be a decision between Boyle and Milne for second choice, and maybe McCarthy was chosen as third choice with a view to longer term planning.

(2) 27, Sheehan (27), Kelleher (27), G McCarthy (22) - D Barron (27), Stewart (24)
We have a very healthy profile at hooker at the moment. It seems they want to go a bit younger with third choice with a view to longer term planning.

(3) 29, Furlong (32), Bealham (34), Clarkson (25) - Jager (30), Salanoa (27), O'Toole (27), Aungier (26), Wilson (23)
Tighthead prop the older position to come into prime and peak, it's not impossible that Bealham will make the next World Cup, but chances are he won't. There are a number of options, perhaps the most exciting option is Salanoa but only time will tell how his recovery comes along.

(4) 26, Ryan (29), Ahern (25), Izuchukwu (25) - Oisín Dowling (28), F Wycherley (27), N Murray (26)
There are plenty of loosehead locks around so no panc, the depth is good within the squad at present.

(5) 27, McCarthy (24), Henderson (33), E Edogbo (22) - Deeny (25), D Murray (24), Sheridan (24)
There appears to be a bit of a gap in the age bracket above 25 for tighthead locks. There are a few promising locks coming through at the moment.

(6) 26, Beirne (33), Baird (26), Prendergast (25) - P Boyle (28), McCann (25), Soroka (24)
Blind side probably has the best depth of all positions.

(7) 25, Van der Flier (32), Timoney (30) - Hodnett (26), Penny (26), Kendellen (24)
Very little effort gone into spreading around the caps, Van der Flier is ever-present but will be 34 at RWC'27.

(8) 25, Doris (27), Conan (33), B Gleeson (21) - Deegan (29), Coombes (27), Jansen (26), Culhane (23), McNabney (22)
Conan will struggle to make it another 2 years, so we probably need to start seeing more rotation here. Jansen might be worth a closer look and has started and played the full 80 for Connacht so far this season.

(9) 25, Gibson-Park (33), Casey (26), Blade (31) - B Murphy (24), Doak (23), Coughlan (23) Gunne (22)
Should probably begin to move on from Blade and Gibson-Park sooner rather than later. Need to see some of the alternative options to give really good performances for their province this season. There is a good bit of competition for match-day spots across the provinces so it should help drive performances.

(10) 26, Crowley (25), S Prendergast (22), Frawley (27) - H Byrne (26), J Murphy (21)
Would like to see Harry Byrne give some performances to give another option here. Frawley may be better used in the centre. Jack Murphy starting for Ulster and on a winning run at the moment.

(11) 23, Lowe (33), Stockdale (29), Bolton (25) - Ward (26), Kilgallen (25), Smith (25),
I can't see Lowe making it to RWC'27. there are a few decent options there, plus a few more that are younger but haven't got enough game time to really evaluate their potential properly.

(12) 26, Aki (35), McCloskey (33) - Forde (24), Kelly (24)
Good quality coming through so no panic, Frawley also an option here.

(13) 25, Ringrose (30), Henshaw (32), T Farrell (32) - Hume (27), Ralston (25), Postlethwaite (23), Gavin (21)
There aren't a lot of 13's that are screaming for inclusion at the moment. Tom Farrell playing the best rugby but doubtful he will be as good in two years' time. Players need to start proving themselves with their provinces.

(14) 23, Hansen (27), T O'Brien (27), Nash (28) - Baloucoune (28), Mullins (23),
Age prfile drifting a bit old, if they can maintain their speed then not too bad. Not a whole lot of speedy options at the moment.

(15) 25, Keenan (29), Osborne (23), J O'Brien (28) - Daly (28), O'Connor (21)
There aren't a lot of exciting fullbacks getting regular game time at any of the provinces. The age profile isn't too bad if they can stay injury-free.

Taking the above, could be looking at a RWC side of:

Porter, Sheehan, Clarkson,
Ahern, McCarthy,
Baird, Doris, Timoney,
Casey, Crowley,
Hansen, Henshaw, Ringrose, T O'Brien,
Osborne.

Kelleher, Boyle, Furlong, Ryan, Prendergast, Blade, Frawley, J O'Brien.

We might be better off giving Jager some time instead of Bealham, and Cathal Forde or Ciarán Frawley instead of Aki or McCloskey, and Ben Murphy or Nathan Doak instead of Blade.
Hugh Gavin may be an option to overtake Ringrose too but too soon yet for him.

aloooof · 22-10-2025 04:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927866#Comment_123927866

and now hes in the Autumn 2025 nov series squad.

He actually hasn't made the squad, syd. Which, imo, is an even bigger head-scratcher on the basis that Doris and Conan are basically coming in cold with zero rugby. (You'd have to presume Farrell thinks Timoney and Prendergast are options at 8 in the worst case scenario).

sydthebeat · 22-10-2025 04:25PM

i think 30 - 31 being the upper end of the lock age band is a bit restrictive?

Etzabeth has been nominated for WPOTY in the last two years at 32 and 33 years of age. Plenty of locks are RWC primed at 32 / 33

sydthebeat · 22-10-2025 04:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123928456#Comment_123928456

yeah my bad!! i automatically thought he'd been part of the latest call ups. I agree that he definitely should be, even if its simply just adding another number to the squad ie not an injury replacement. Not quite sure why Farrell restricted himself to 34 players. For example England and South Africa named 36 man squads.

Podge_irl · 22-10-2025 09:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123928477#Comment_123928477

I assume that he will add more players after the Chicago trip and the intention was to bring all the named squad on that trip so they wanted to somewhat cap it. But who knows really.

RichieRich_89 · 23-10-2025 12:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927111#Comment_123927111

What about picking a team all from one province? Like, select 1-23 Ulster players. Or maybe provincial units anyway. Maybe Munster front row - Milne, D. Barron, Jager/Salanoa/Foxe; Munster second rows - Edogbo and O'Connell; Leinster back row - Soroka, Penny and Deegan; Ulster halves - Doak and Jack Murphy; Ulster centres - Postlethwaite and Hume.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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