Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

I find this post immensely reasonable and you are now on the Paul Smeenus Approved Posters List.

It is pretty clear - you cover it in your own post.

The IRFU didn't have to make the other provinces put the CC money into pathways - they could have given them free rein to spend it how they wish. Instead it is a rule and they even went as far as publicly announcing it, another thing they didnt need to do.

Just asking questions… 🙄

So you're asking questions about a potential problem that from your own post clearly isnt a major issue based on the number of players moving from Leinster to other provinces and abroad.

What should be a much more pressing question is how St. Andrew’s and Wesley each individually had more touring Lions this year than the combined number of players produced by Munster, Ulster, and Connacht academies. Even the rugby juggernaut that is Good Counsel College New Ross had more players touring than their combined total.

If you're concerned about the future performance of Irish rugby I would have expected your eyes should be turned to the provinces receiving funding but have been failing in their role for years to produce top quality players.

And equally, it's very hard to accept criticism of Munster's finances when, say, you had an issue with them signing Kiran MacDonald on a 3-month-deal as a medical joker at a time when all of Ahern, Kleyn, Wycherley, Snyman and Paddy Kelly were injured and Beirne was with the Ireland squad.

If that's your bar, you will always find criticism.

To be clear, I'm not saying there isn't scope for criticising Munster's use of their finances over the last while. What I'm saying is the above is a ridiculous example of it.

This is the Ireland thread though so shouldn't be too specific on one province, just it is too easy for a successful province to throw blame at other provinces, not necessarily accurately either.


It's also very easy for unsuccessful provinces to throw blame at another province, which is not necessarily accurate either

Other provinces are struggling to compete because there was a playing generation plus where they havent produced a top tier international.

You complain about what you perceive as bias from me when you continue to only acknowledge one element of the IRFU's actions, not their ringfencing and monitoring the spend.

Ah yes - it is always the IRFU's fault. A province signs a player it doesn't work out - blame the IRFU. The IRFU blocks the signing of a player - blame the IRFU. The IRFU allows stadium development - blame the IRFU. Players not getting selected for Ireland - blame the IRFU. Players getting selected by Ireland and having the associated game time restrictions for their province - blame the IRFU.

I would say the near definition of profligate is spending money on marquee players while you don't have a high performance center and your starters and academy are training in two groups.

I posted back here when Leinster was a laughing stock they deserved plenty of 'blame' for their production of players. It is just as fair to ask questions of provinces who historically were producing and then went through significant period of f-all output. Sticking heads in sand and finding excuses after excuses doesnt serve anyone.

It's not lesser player supply - it wasn't the case that all of a sudden there stopped being good rugby players being born in Munster for a few years in the early to mid-90s, it was more that the academy was doing a really poor job of identifying and developing talent.

For a lengthy enough period in the mid-2010's, they pivoted in focus towards NIQs, project players etc and away from developing quality players. Some of the players signed during that era were of poor quality and contributed little. That's the definition of profligate and wasteful spending.

I'm not even talking about the Thomond loan at all, as I largely view that as just unfortunate timing (though it was also profligate and wasteful to not get a naming rights deal done at the time).

That's not "my bar" though - I wasn't critical of the signing itself specifically.

Here's a relatively simple reality for you - Munster are absolutely deserving of criticism for the relatively poor management of the province from a financial and a player development perspective for an extended period of time.

The fact that the last forward produced by the Munster academy to get to 20 international caps for Ireland remains Niall Scannell is about as good an illustration of that as you can get.

Fairly straightforwardly because I don't think it will materially impact Leinster's results. I still expect them to be at the pointy end of both competitions for the next number of years.

Which is borne out by the fact that the first year the original 30% rate was introduced, they managed to win their first piece of silverware in 4 seasons.

Yeah, but surely you can see that the impact of this doesn't happen overnight?

Like, similarly, the reason why Leinster have a dominant position on the central contracts right now didn't happen overnight - it's the result of player development work over an extended period (and an absence of same from the other provinces to an extent).

I absolutely agree with that, but equally Munster seem to be moving in the right direction - your previous point about "the last forward produced by the Munster academy to get to 20 international caps for Ireland remains Niall Scannell" is absolutely true, but not so long ago wouldn't have been restricted to the forwards., right?

I'd go as far as speculating that I think there are a number of forwards in the current Munster squad who will gain 20+ caps before the end of their careers.

I think the introduction of the 40% will also help matters (tho obviously not immediately) and was absolutely necessary.

There's also the point that Leinster completely changed the bar; it can't be the case that Leinster are the elite production line in world rugby and falling short of that bar constitutes failure. For example, I've been strongly in the camp that Gavin Coombes should have more Ireland caps. Your position above views him as a failure of the production line when the reality is he's a success story of it.

Yeah, it absolutely is moving in the right direction, something I've acknowledged multiple times over the past couple of years. There are loads of young exciting players in the wider Munster squad and academy now who look to have a bright future.

But, if anything, that actually proves the point that the development of players was just neglected for the period in between.

As for this:

I think the introduction of the 40% will also help matters (tho obviously not immediately) and was absolutely necessary.

We still have no detail for how this money will be spent, so it's difficult to draw any conclusions as of yet as to how helpful or necessary it was.

I was more critical of the fact that Munster seemed not to have the financial wherewithal to fund the signing of a journeyman player for a c. 3 month period without needing the IRFU to fund the signing, yet were able to find the cash to pay guys like RG, DDA (the prior season) etc.

But, the fact remains, you yourself have acknowledged poor financial management by Munster over the past decade or so (as recently as your post at 2:16pm) , but you seem to take great exception to anyone else doing the same.

If the best example you can find of apparent unreasonable criticism is a post from almost 3 years ago (where I'm not even critical of the signing itself per se) then I think you're reaching a bit here.

What are you actually even arguing here?

That I've been fairly consistently critical of Munster's financial mis-management and poor player development for an extended period of time?

Well then let me say: Guilty as charged. I absolutely stand by that criticism.

Either defend it if you want to do so, or actually make a substantive point, because this seems a level of nonsensical, time wasting nitpicking that I'm struggling to see the relevance of.