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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    The same thought occurred to me. I think it’s down to the excellent communication and engagement by the project team under Jari Howard. As @pajoguy said they have done an excellent job so far and have really brought people along with them. Let’s just hope our elected representatives don’t fkuc it up when it lands in their laps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    In that case it would make sense to run an active travel route from New Twopothouse back to the main line of the route to connect the two sections together. Or run it along the L55661 (Make that a quietway/ filtered permeability road) and past the Priory to rejoin the N20.

    Just seems very strange that they have two totally separate sections of it, a linking section would be a drop in the bucket of the overall scheme.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    The northern section end in Patrickswell up the cemetery road I think. There are shared surfaces through village I think to get to cycle lanes on the R526.

    Open to correction on this



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,081 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Not up through the main street of the village if that's what you mean. There is a tiny strip of path one one side of the road with some bicycles painted on it once before you enter the cycle lane when heading towards Limerick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I'm referring to the section in the centre, rather than the Northern or Southern end of the overall scheme. Travelling the scheme from North to South you eventually get dropped off at the Junction East of Mallow where the N72 and N73 meet with no planned route into Mallow itself.

    The route from South to North doesn't really follow the line of the road at all, instead passing through Mallow and up as far as New Twopothouse, before stopping without a linking section of safe provision back to the Northern section.

    Basically either a linking section from Buttevant to New Twopothouse, or from the N72/3 Junction into Mallow Proper (or better, both) seems to be missing

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Limerick74


    The Mallow Relief Road active travel path or the Mallow to Dungarvan Greenway would link the southern and northern sections of the N/M20 active travel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Ah ok missed that, they should probably have the proposed routes of those in as a separate layer.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,539 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Having looked at the latest update, I think there are lots of things which to me, in my limited knowledge of the project and it's constraints, could be done better. The proposed two partial junctions set up at Croom as I previously said seems crap and a single junction further north would be better.

    The junction for Charleville should also be further north imo. I don't see this project doing much for Charleville. Obviously longer distance traffic will be removed but much of the traffic from the town and the wider area will still be going through the main street to access the M20, particularly to/from anywhere south.

    I'm not sure if the N72 Mallow relief road has been considered in the design. Not sure how it will link to the proposed new roads layout, presumably an additional roundabout with the current N72 west of the junction. Shifting the junction even 250m north, putting the eastern junction roundabout between the N72 and N73 with both feeding directly into it, then the N72 relief road can tie directly into the junction roundabout on the west side.

    I also think all the talk about transport hubs rings a little hollow when they don't bother with a P&R or two when there are junctions less than 200m from a rail line being upgraded to have frequent commuter trains



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭Corkladddd!!


    I think they could have considered a half junction just north of Charleville (similar to Watergrasshill/Rathcormac on the the M8) where northbound traffic can exit and access the north side of Charleville (Those wanting to join Northbound at this point just proceed to the Rourkes Cross option) and south so if you are on the north side of Charleville you can join and head south without going through the town; I think this compromise would have had major benefit for not an awful lot of additional work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep the P&R is definitely a bit frustrating. Also the lack of a full tie in to anything other than the existing road at Blackpool is frustrating. And obviously the N72 tie-in is missing. But it seems like they were somehow told it's out of their scope, in all cases. I suspect that was all very deliberate: "remove from scope anything that is outside of our control that could delay us"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    “I'm not sure if the N72 Mallow relief road has been considered in the design.”

    One of the questions I submitted to the Webinar on 3rd July 2024 was about the tie-ins with other major projects (M21, N72 and N/M40/CNDR) and interaction with the teams responsible. The response was that the N/M20 team were working closely with the relevant teams/authorities to ensure there was seamless integration and that any shared elements would be progressed and delivered by whoever was on site first. There was more detail regarding the specifics of the connection to the Mallow Relief Road but I can’t recall exactly what was said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭cjpm


    A lot of the project is old news. The majority of landowners went through this process 15 years ago. And it was in ABP last time before the plug was pulled.

    It was always expected to restart eventually.

    On a side note. Has anyone checked on the Cork-Limerick Business alliance. Hope he’s ok? 😜


    Edited to say he’s ok. I googled CLAG and he popped up on Newstalk with his usual speil. I was getting worried as I hadn’t seen him mentioned in the press since the latest announcement 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    The lack of a tie in with the R515 in Charleville only makes sense in the context of discouraging the use of an R road to connect between two N/M roads that intersect, the N/M20 and N72. If this is correct, then you'd think the same principle would apply between the N/M20 and N/M21, so the less friction, the better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,832 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I think the vast majority of the populace will be happy just to get a motorway built now after all these years of empty promises



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Regarding a child of points raised here...

    N40 North Ring Road will provide the "missing" tie-ins at Blackpool.. this project deliberately focused on fixing the road between Cork and Limerick, not any traffic problems of those cities.

    The P+R "hub" functions at Blarney are being provided under the Cork Commuter Rail project. The other two new stations along the N20 corridor are beyond the southern end of this scheme.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,539 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I don't see how what is proposed for the M20 could be described as "seamless integration", there'll probably be four roundabouts there when two could suffice. Ideally the would be included in the Mallow bypass section of the M20 for construction.

    In terms of phasing/contract arrangements, I'd say best would be;

    1. Blarney to Mournabbey - very dangerous as is and can't have a motorway further north feeding into the existing road*
    2. Mournabbey to Charleville junction (including N72 Mallow relief road) - removes the worst bends
    3. Charleville junction to M21 - I don't think the proposals do much for Charleville anyway so it can wait and Croom has a bypass already

    *it might even make sense to make this a separate planning application in the hope that it would have an easier time getting through ABP and avoiding a JR, allowing it to proceed quicker



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I've said this lots of times before, but the Charleville junction strategy leaves a lot to be desired, particularly in terms of the R515 to the west of the town.

    Quite a lot of traffic enters the R515 to get to the N20 north, and to some degree south. The options for this traffic now are:

    a) enter the town on the narrow Smith's Lane to get to the N20 via the town centre (north and south)

    b) rat run on narrow country botharins to get to the O'Rourke's Cross junction or the Ballyhea junction.

    Southbound traffic can bypass the narrow Smith's Lane by using the Park Road (no right turn from Smith's Lane to the N20) but northbound traffic has that desperate narrow section to contend with.

    An awful load of hassle could be saved by a simple pair of north facing slips where the motorway will intersect the R515 at the golf club. IMO it's merited as much as the Buttevant or Grenagh junctions are.

    In short, both junctions near Charleville are sufficiently far from the town to make them unoptimal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Limerick74


    {59D9DCFE-11D0-4B61-8EB8-B31273E87F19}.png

    Do you really want to encourage traffic to a motorway junction on the R515?

    Junction of R515 and N20 above.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    My point is that if there's no M20 access from the R515, traffic wanting to go north on the M20 will have to use that road. Unless they drive a few km south via Park Road to access the M20 at Ballyhea.

    My optimistic scenario here would be the removal of as much traffic as possible from that road in your screenshot, and without access to the M20 from the R515, northbound, that section of R515 won't see much of a drop in traffic imo.

    (speaking as a regular user of the R515 to the N20 north).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Another alternative would be a link road to the south from around Charleville Golf Club to the Ballyhea junction. Similar to the link road between the R741 and R742 in Enniscorthy with the motorway interchange in the middle.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Limerick74


    there is one already directing R515 hgv traffic south of town to join the N20 via Park Rd as per your previous post. Not a great link road.

    IMG_6935.jpeg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Limerick74




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    From the above article, the project team’s view on the sequencing of the contracts, broadly in line with the previous predictions by posters here:


    "We believe the first priority should be the bypasses of Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow. We see them going first, followed soon after from Mourneabbey to Blarney, and then from Croom to Patrickswell."



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This is the first time I've seen this laid out sequentially, and reading that as it is I'd update my previous predictions.

    Phase 1: Croom South-Mallow South (Mourneabbey) - I previously suggested O'Rourke's Cross but I can see the logic for continuing on to Croom rather than making the R518 between O'Rourke's Cross and the M20 junction the main route from Cork to Limerick.

    Phase 2: Mourneabbey-Blarney: will be highly disruptive with the online works so fair enough doing it in isolation

    Phase 3: Croom South-Attyflin: as above but less busy.

    I really hope they don't leave too long between phases (but it sounds like they won't if they're targeting a 7 year total build timeframe). Once Phase 1 is complete, the rest of the N20 will be a complete dogs dinner of snarled up traffic.

    But this is the first time since 2011 we have a tangible plan for getting this done. That can only be welcomed, regardless of any gripes we may have about how long its taking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    If phase 1 of Croom to Mourneabbey is done, that is the majority of the M20 finished and with most of the bottlenecks out of the way. Even getting that done would be huge.

    The you are just left with the tie-ins on either ends, to Patrickswell and Blarney.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Once Phase 1 is complete, the rest of the N20 will be a complete dogs dinner of snarled up traffic.

    I'd agree overall with prioritising the project in this way, as the centre section is the worst part of the road and the online upgrades at the Northern and Southern ends will be highly disruptive. My big concern is that following completion of the centre section the de facto speed limit on the other sections will be 120kmh in the minds of many drivers, which is a horrific thought, especially on the Mallow Road section. Still, you have to start somewhere so let's hope it proceeds soonest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,539 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Going as far north as Croom wouldn't make any sense, if they were intending doing all that in Phase 1 (probably 70%+ of the overall cost) there'd be no reason to split it at all. From Croom north as a Phase of it's own wouldn't make any sense either, too small. Also the Croom South junction is useless without the parallel roads going north which would have to be done along with the upgrade works. Croom wasn't mentioned as a priority and is already bypassed so I can't see the first phase going anywhere near it.

    I think Mourneabbey - Blarney has to be done first. The existing road is too dangerous as is, adding more traffic, which the motorway would bring, would make it a deathtrap. The online upgrade would also be more difficult with more traffic on the road. Running a motorway into the road south of Mallow would be madness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭cjpm


    That section is one of the busiest single carriageway roads in the country.
    And the most dangerous too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,539 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Not sure what you are referring to here. If you mean Mourneabbey - Blarney, much of that is 2+1 so single carriageway statistics are fairly irrelevant.

    If you are referring to some other section of the N20, I'd be pretty certain that Mourneabbey - Blarney would quickly become the most dangerous road in the country (if not already), were it to to feed from a motorway further north.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭cjpm


    I’m referring to Rathduff to Blarney. Single carriageway. And a disaster waiting to happen.

    Rathduff to Mourneabbey is the 2+1 section. And is already way over capacity. So much so that the locals can’t cross it at times.



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