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Women's prisons and the Gender Recognition Act (2015)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I’m not going to suggest we got the jump on the US and the UK, but there are several places in Irish law where for the purposes of the law in question, men and women, and indeed their roles in Irish society, are clearly defined -

    “woman” means a female person of any age.

    Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018, Section 2

    It would appear that it was Fr John Charles McQuaid, soon to be the archbishop of Dublin, who came up with the original phrasing in a draft from February 1937. “In particular the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State support with which the common good can be achieved”.

    While this was accepted, his recommendation that the State shall therefore make it an “aim to see that women, especially mothers and young girls, shall not be obliged to enter avocations unsuited to their sex and strength” was rejected.

    https://archive.ph/SZPUu

    The department said that a “mother”, under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, is understood to be the person who gave birth to or was the female adopter of the child, the mothers claimed.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/same-sex-mothers-high-court-case-6677806-Apr2025/

    And then there’s the more obvious sections of the GRA -

    Gender Recognition Act 2015, Section 18

    Gender Recognition Act 2015, Section 19



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,788 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Thankfully Ireland is far more progressive than the US and UK on these issues and they will be no going back here. Going back solves nothing. Its forward we need to go.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Given some of the discussion on this and other threads, I feel I need to preface my post by saying I'm not having a go at you.

    Is the statement "a Trans Woman is a biological male" not correct? If it is correct, why is stating a fact offensive? Is biology offensive?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    It was only recently that Scotland was the blueprint for being progressive.

    I am sure their were people saying their would be no going back.

    That changed just like it will change here.

    We tend to be slow to follow the lead of others on a lot of things.

    Normality and common sense seems to be making a comeback.

    Mod Edit: Warned for uncivil posting

    Post edited by Necro on


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Using the word "normality" in a response to a post by a transgender woman. JHC. 🤦🏻‍♀️

    Another ✅ for the use of stigmatising and transphobic language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    But everything is transphobic if it doesn't align with the ideology.

    You want everyone to treat and address you as want.

    Yet you don't want to treat and address women as they want.

    Yes a return to normality.

    Women having their own changing rooms, women having fairness in and equality in sport etc.

    Getting rid of dehumanizing language like birthing person etc.

    A return to normality like I said.

    I have no problem addressing anyone as they want even if I don't believe in it.

    While trans activists insult women for asking the same courtesy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Firstly, being transgender is not an ideology, a lifestyle, or a choice. That is your first mistake.

    Secondly, I don't use dehumanising language (lol, the irony of you accusing me of that) when you just repeatedly used the word "normal" to imply that transgender people are "not normal". That is stigmatising.

    For the record, I am not a transgender person. I am a cisgender woman. And in case you think I'm wrong to call myself that:

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    For the record, I am not a transgender person. I am a cisgender woman. And in case you think I'm wrong to call myself that:

    I doubt anyone has a problem with what you chose to call yourself. Some women do have a problem with being referred to as cis - are you willing to accept that they find the term offensive, and why?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, I am. Which is why you'll note that I used it only to refer to myself.

    See, it's possible to avoid causing offence if you at least try to.

    All I am asking is that people have some awareness of the language they use, and the impact it can have on others.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I'm not a fan of the word "normal" either. It might have some value in a medical context, e.g. normal blood levels, but it's often used to mean someone who looks, acts and thinks in ways that society approves of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Here's a quote from the link you provided:

    This definition of transphobia was developed over a period of months by a diverse group of UK based trans people. As with any definition, it is a working definition that will change over time.

    Do you see why this could make it difficult to avoid causing offence?

    It's one thing for language to change organically over a long timeframe, quite another for activist groups to decide on how others should use language. This is particularly problematic when it involves forced speech.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As has been said, language is constantly evolving. So yes, I do understand in some cases offence may be caused by someone unknowingly saying something they weren't aware (at the time they said it) that it was transphobic.

    But it won't stop me from pointing out when the language being used is transphobic and why. Now, if people don't want to take it on board, and then continue on knowingly using those terms, well, there is little I can do to stop them. I just consider them a lost cause.

    But if no one points it out in the first place, then those who genuinely do not want to offend anyone, will continue to do so unknowingly because they know no different.

    There are plenty of other offensive words and terms that are no longer seen as acceptable and are no longer commonly used because people have accepted they are offensive and their use is now frowned upon. I consider this the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I thanked your post as you have taken the time to give me a considered reply, however I don't agree with most of what you said. I take particular issue with the concept of considering people a lost cause for failing to conform with what you have deemed acceptable behaviour. That's certainly at odds with your earlier objection to the use of the word "normal".



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In relation to the use of the word normal, I tried to explain why it can be stigmatising in a conversation with or about transgender people.

    But thank you for being civil, even if we disagree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I think I understood your objection to the use of "normal". It can be stigmatising in a wide range of contexts. I'm thinking of the mental health area in particular: often people get labelled as crazy, mad, or with other more official sounding diagnostic terms due to behaviour that makes other people uncomfortable, which then gets pathologised/medicalised when they are actually having an understandable emotional reaction to a situation that's crazy.

    There's also the example of people thinking that it's not normal for little boys to want to wear dresses and play with dolls, or little girls to want to play with toy trucks and toolkits, and that such kids must have been born in the wrong body. I suppose my question is who gets to define normal.

    Edit:

    "Normal" is often used instead of "usual" or "common".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Likewuse, I appreciate your response.

    I do try to be civil, while admiting to often falling short online and IRL.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Gender stereotypes is a whole other minefield in itself!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,968 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    Will be a boon for the, supposed, multitude of predators who will no longer need to even bother dressing up to enter the women’s toilets.

    “It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be” - A. Dumbledore

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Agreed 😀!

    @volchitsa sorry for going OT, that's where the discussion on precision in language led my brain.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,486 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The plural of anecdote is not data, Jack. 😏

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 633 ✭✭✭jay1988


    So why did you come here and engage with the poster in the first place?

    You raised a point about their post and when they responded with a genuine question you decided you weren't engaging with the person and labelled them a transphobe and a terf.

    Everyone who disagrees with me is something-phobe, laughable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Ahh now volchista, bit rich to be flinging that in my direction when the majority of discourse around this topic has been and likely will only ever be, based around anecdotes 🤨

    Suffice to say there’s a better chance of me getting my arse kicked by a 13 year old girl than there is you ending up in a cell with your cell buddy asking to borrow your safety razor to shave his bits ‘n’ bobs 😏

    (all fairness I’d say the scumbag who attacked her was more surprised than she was to be attacked, which worked to her advantage more than any martial arts instruction, but now I’ve gone and tore the arse out of the joke 😒)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Ah now Jack, only you could post that story to prove that predatory males are not a danger to women and girls 😀!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It wasn’t to prove that predatory males are not a danger to women and girls; just to be clear - predators, regardless of their sex are a danger to society.

    But you put the condition of being a predator in there, in the same way as the other poster put the condition of superior strength in there, to make the argument that men are a threat to women. It was simply a dumb argument then, it’s a dumb argument now, because it’s just not based upon reality in any way, shape or form whatsoever. There is nothing inherent about men that makes them a threat or a danger to anyone.

    For all their blather about biology and biological facts and all the rest of it, one would imagine they’d be the last people making that argument, but y’know, they want it both ways 👌



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I had to put "predatory" in as "inherently" somehow got lost along the way 😀.

    The point being that other things being equal, a male atacker is to be feared more than a female one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I know, because the condition of being a predator wasn’t in the original statement either, it was predicated upon the idea of our superior strength making us a threat to women. It’s why I pointed out that the inclusion of “all other things being equal” doesn’t make an untrue statement any more true than it wasn’t already, and why I used the example of Nora Wall being found guilty of rape, because “everybody knows” at the time that the nuns were a bunch of perverts.

    It’s stereotyping like that, making broad generalisations about people of either sex (and not for a minute do I think women and girls are as paranoid as is often made out in these discussions), which fuel contentions like the one you’re making that a male attacker is to be more feared than a female attacker. That’s just fuelling paranoia, it doesn’t actually accomplish anything useful.

    I posted the story as a joke, referencing your earlier analogies of a two year old attacking a rugby second row, and Croc Dundee having a bigger knife, I didn’t take them seriously, and I didn’t expect anyone would take that story I posted as if I was posting it seriously either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I was joking too, but jokes can carry a serious message.

    Here's a serious question. You have a choice of being punched by a man, or a woman. All you know about them is that they each weigh 72kg. Which one is likely to do more damage?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That isn’t a serious question, you’re an engineer, you tell me what’s wrong with the question, because you’d only be guessing either basing your answer on assumptions in the absence of facts.

    Me, I’m ugly enough as it is so I’ll sit this one out and you can let me know which did the most damage 😂



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