Richard Dawkins - J'accuse!

Hotblack Desiato · 24-01-2025 09:51PM #1

Inspired by a post by @smacl in the other place:

Similarly the celeb atheists like Richard Dawkins, whose views are very much their own and not an indicator of atheist behavior in any wider sense. At the same time, he's disproportionately visible and again tends to influence popular perception about atheism (and not in a good way).

M'lud may I begin the case for the defence 😁

RD wasn't always a cultural warrior, he used to be just a quite well respected evolutionary biologist. It's the creationist nonsense in the US which turned him into an activist.

I think that in this forum we can all agree that religious indoctrination should be kept well away from education. Especially in a country such as the US with a constitutional separation of church and state, which alas we are lacking.

While we long-toothed baby-aters might scoff at the somewhat simplistic The God Delusion, its stated aim was to give the doubters something to think about, and it appears to have succeeded admirably in that goal. And as we all know, the greatest enemies of religion are thought and the free exchange of ideas. The printing press was the first great blow against religion, the internet the second.

From the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia:

More than three million copies were sold. According to Dawkins in a 2016 interview with Matt Dillahunty, an unauthorised Arabic translation of this book has been downloaded 3 million times in Saudi Arabia.

Now in his time he has made quite a few ill-thought-out tweets, many of which he subsequently clarified and/or apologised for. Also some which were deliberately misinterpreted and propagandised by theists. X/itter has never been a place for nuanced discourse. It's hard enough to communicate such in long form textual posts never mind in 140 characters. If I'd been his advisor I'd have counselled him to just stay the hell away from it. But some people will slam him whatever he does, because the very articulation of a non-theist viewpoint makes them deeply uncomfortable. He was treated appallingly by both Pat Kenny and Ryan Tubridy on each of his appearances on The Late Late Show, while theistic nonsense texts scrolled unchallenged across the bottom of the screen. FU, RTE.

It is for that, the very articulation of a non-theistic viewpoint, in my humble opinion, which we owe him our greatest thanks. In Ireland, for decades the word "atheist" was synonymous with "communist" and "immoral". Just getting that word out there is useful. We can only imagine how that word is regarded in places such as Saudi Arabia, but clearly millions of people in such countries are crying out for the ability to explore and express disbelief. It is for this reason that I am glad Atheist Ireland isn't called Secularist Ireland. The word needs to be demystified and demythologised.

Dawkins also co-founded The Clergy Project, which provides a way forward for those whose livelihood and even their home depends on propagating a religious belief to which they no longer subscribe.

Discuss!

John_Rambo · 24-01-2025 10:13PM

Great post, good for the brain!!

I've always found him very very reasonable, super smart with the ability to bring humour in to the debate without completely insulting the believers. However, I disagree with your assertions that the printing press was the first great blow against religion. So would Johannes Gutenberg and his first run on his press, the first one on the planet, as would Heinrich Kramer with his classic Malleus Maleficarum.

The printing press in it's infancy, much like social media spread disease, pain, death and ignorance.

Stupid people believed anything they read (or what was read to them). Stupid people believe anything they see on social media, they don't even need someone to read it to them, they just sit there with their mouths open nodding their heads slowly.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-01-2025 11:08PM

Protestants would agree with me 😁 the Catholic Church was dead set against the vernacular Bible and its dissemination among the "lower orders", they wanted the sole source of information to be the pulpit with their edited version of Christianity in a sermon, and a mass in Latin which almost nobody understood.

The stupid have always been with us, but they now have the ability to network and elect a US president 😯 A man who uses religion for his own ends, but is no more a believer than I am.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that few homeschooled, living in a Christian and/or Mormon bubble, young adults in the Western world, believers maintain such after contact with the open exchange of ideas on the internet. I make no claims for similar in the Muslim world but nonetheless I can draw my own conclusions. Their efforts to block that which does not conform with their orthodoxy only confirms the pathetic weakness of their doctrines.

John_Rambo · 24-01-2025 11:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123096871#Comment_123096871

Protestants may agree with you, however, history will agree with me. The invention of the printing press by Johannes Gutenberg, who was a good fella, was used to produce the Bible, revolutionised religion… but it was a **** bomb, it spread ideas far beyond the Church’s control, Just like the Malleus Maleficarumu. This book was another disaster! It claimed religious authority for identifying, persecuting, torturing and killing witches (women as usual)

Mass printing encouraged kunts to accuse women (they didn't like or wouldn't have sex with them) of witchcraft, leading to witch hunts across Europe. Thousands of women, were tortured and killed. The "press" gave legitimacy to stupid beliefs, using religion as justification what the hell they wanted to do, kill people!!

smacl · 25-01-2025 11:57AM

Discuss!

Ok, I'll bite. Out of interest, was the imperative there an intended reference to the tweet that led Dawkins to lose ‘humanist of the year’ title over trans comments?

I think that in this forum we can all agree that religious indoctrination should be kept well away from education. Especially in a country such as the US with a constitutional separation of church and state, which alas we are lacking.

Absolutely, but in my opinion, this is where we should clearly distinguish between secularism and atheism. A quick definition for secularism nabbed from the National Secular Society across the water goes as follows

Equality so that our religious beliefs or lack of them doesn't put any of us at an advantage or a disadvantage.
Freedom to practise one's religion or belief without harming others, or to change it or not have one, according to one's own conscience.
Separation of religious institutions from state institutions and a public sphere where religion may participate, but not dominate.

Atheism is no more or less than a lack of belief on a god or gods, however much various groups try to partially conflate it with secularism through capitalising the lead A in an attempt to make it a proper noun or adding a plus to the end. Worth noting that many secularists are also religious.

Going back to education, the biggest positive change we've had in this country in recent decades in terms of a secular option has been Educate Together. I say secular, as ET celebrates diversity in all its forms, including religious belief or lack thereof. Atheist Ireland has been openly critical of ET on the basis of not adhering to its notion of non-denominational while failing to provide any alternative.

It is for that, the very articulation of a non-theistic viewpoint, in my humble opinion, which we owe him our greatest thanks. In Ireland, for decades the word "atheist" was synonymous with "communist" and "immoral". Just getting that word out there is useful. We can only imagine how that word is regarded in places such as Saudi Arabia, but clearly millions of people in such countries are crying out for the ability to explore and express disbelief. It is for this reason that I am glad Atheist Ireland isn't called Secularist Ireland.

The issue I take with Dawkins is that he is often described as being on a crusade against organised religion under the banner of atheism, leading many religiously inclined people to view this attitude as indicative of atheism more generally. This has the effect (possibly intended) of polarising religious and non-religious groups within our society, which in turn leads to a largely negative and isolating reaction among religious folks towards atheists. Secularism by comparison aspires towards pluralism and inclusion, attempting to bring diverse groups within our society into a community which shares many values while recognising the differences held by diverse cultural and religious backgrounds.

The word needs to be demystified and demythologised.

The word atheist is a simple noun that is easy to understand, meaning a lack of belief in a god or gods. Any additions to this by various organisations, either religious or irreligious, don't really change this. Some great discussions on it from way back, including input from Michael Nugent, here and here. While, as a secularist, I applaud for the most part the work that Atheist Ireland do, I strongly disagree with the notion that atheism involves any shared worldview or has any more complex definition.

Similarly, while I appreciate much of the contribution Dawkins has made to the sciences, he's also made enough public gaffs to lead many folks to consider him offensive, and atheism offensive by association.

smacl · 26-01-2025 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123096871#Comment_123096871

Nonetheless, the fact remains that few homeschooled, living in a Christian and/or Mormon bubble, young adults in the Western world, believers maintain such after contact with the open exchange of ideas on the internet.

While you might think that, the home schooled child of Breda O'Brian and Brendan Conroy, Ben Conroy of the Iona institute, might disagree. The kids of the Burke family were also home schooled and would probably concur. There's a certain truth in the Jesuit maxim, “Give me the child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.” (Even if they did nab that from Aristotle). It is with good reason the church are very keen to keep control of the primary education system.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-01-2025 03:04PM

Going back to education, the biggest positive change we've had in this country in recent decades in terms of a secular option has been Educate Together. I say secular, as ET celebrates diversity in all its forms, including religious belief or lack thereof. Atheist Ireland has been openly critical of ET on the basis of not adhering to its notion of non-denominational while failing to provide any alternative.

All primary schools are currently required to provide 2.5 hours of religious education a week. The UN were saying that Ireland (i.e. the State) has a duty to provide non-denominational education, which clearly ET is not. Maybe if the Dept. Education's requirements changed, the ET approach would change and have far less emphasis on religion in their schools. But maybe it wouldn't.

While you might think that, the home schooled child of Breda O'Brian and Brendan Conroy, Ben Conroy of the Iona institute, might disagree. The kids of the Burke family were also home schooled and would probably concur. There's a certain truth in the Jesuit maxim, “Give me the child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.” (Even if they did nab that from Aristotle). It is with good reason the church are very keen to keep control of the primary education system.

We've only heard of Ben and (some of) the Burke children precisely because they strongly promote religious ideas. It appears that there are several other Burke children who don't get involved in the family's "campaigns". I'm not stating what their beliefs might or might not be, but they are not all totally committed to the cause to the extent of getting in trouble with employers, the gardai and the courts over it.

We're not going to read in the news about the religiously homeschooled children who don't maintain a strong attachment to religion in their adult lives.

Meanwhile what % of pupils in RCC schools end up as committed, practising Catholic adults? I would guess 10% at the very most and they are likely to have strong religious practice at home.

RCC are holding onto the schools and doing what they've always done even though it's becoming exponentially less successful from their point of view. Whether that's through inertia, fear of change, lack of clear benefits to them from change, lack of support from hierarchy, or indeed lack of overwhelming parental demand for change, or a combination of these. They're still dealing with the fallout from the abuse scandals while trying to keep their churches running every Sunday with dwindling manpower. Upending our education system isn't on their agenda.

The word atheist is a simple noun that is easy to understand

Yes but quite a lot of people clearly still don't 😉

smacl · 28-01-2025 03:56PM

All primary schools are currently required to provide 2.5 hours of religious education a week. The UN were saying that Ireland (i.e. the State) has a duty to provide non-denominational education, which clearly ET is not. Maybe if the Dept. Education's requirements changed, the ET approach would change and have far less emphasis on religion in their schools. But maybe it wouldn't.

I've heard the line "Multi-denominational schools are multi-religious, not inclusive" from Atheist Ireland / Teach don't preach before and quite frankly it is directly contrary to Educate Together's charter which states "that children of all social, cultural, religious and non-religious backgrounds have a right to an education that reflects their individual identity whilst exploring the different values and traditions of the world in which they live". Also worth noting that non-denominational does not mean atheist or even non-religious, it means not exclusive to a single religious denomination. If you can provide an example where an ET school excluded someone because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, please do feel free to share it.

Meanwhile what % of pupils in RCC schools end up as committed, practising Catholic adults? I would guess 10% at the very most and they are likely to have strong religious practice at home.

Catholicism in this country is in rapid decline and the influence of the church in education here is clearly untenable. I think we're agreement on this. As to the numbers, no idea.

The word atheist is a simple noun that is easy to understand
Yes but quite a lot of people clearly still don't 😉

Any people you're referring to in particular? It has been a very long time since I checked, but Michael Nugent's definition was a bit more complex than this.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-01-2025 07:17PM

I've heard the line "Multi-denominational schools are multi-religious, not inclusive" from Atheist Ireland / Teach don't preach before and quite frankly it is directly contrary to Educate Together's charter which states "that children of all social, cultural, religious and non-religious backgrounds have a right to an education that reflects their individual identity whilst exploring the different values and traditions of the world in which they live".

That article you linked is in relation to the ETB CNS schools, it makes no mention of Educate Together (although the headline might make one think otherwise)

The CNS schools were originally intended to segregate children along religious lines during the school day for separate instruction in specific religions. That's not multi-denominational in the sense that we have come to understand it in the Irish education system (the ET model) and it's certainly not non-denominational.

Also worth noting that non-denominational does not mean atheist or even non-religious, it means not exclusive to a single religious denomination. If you can provide an example where an ET school excluded someone because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, please do feel free to share it.

Exclusion in admission or during the school day? I don't think anyone has claimed either of these in relation to an Educate Together school.

A multi-denominational school would be non-denominational under the definition above. (With an ET, it is at least arguable that they are non-denominational, even if Atheist Ireland don't agree)

But there's no possibility of an "inter-denominational" school, i.e. ETB secondaries with both RC and CoI "ethos" under an ETB patronage, being credibly described as "non-denominational" - yet would meet the definition above of not being exclusive to a single religious denomination.

The wooliness of these descriptions might suit the Department's purposes, but are hardly of benefit to those of us who enrol kids in school, especially those of us who want the system to move away from religious patronage.

Anyway we have a thread for giving out about schools 😄

smacl · 29-01-2025 08:07AM

That article you linked is in relation to the ETB CNS schools, it makes no mention of Educate Together (although the headline might make one think otherwise)

How about this article from Atheist Ireland then? Educate Together is undermining the duty of the Irish State to provide non-denominational schools

Apologies for being pedantic, but Atheist Ireland's spats with Educate Together over the years have really put me off them as a group. Seems like an unnecessary pissing contest that benefits no-one but does show their colours to some extent.

I think its relevant to the conversation about Dawkins because there is a similar issue in play. Like it or not, a lot of people find him obnoxious while also identifying him as a poster boy for atheism. While he's done some great work, and I agree with his position with respect to religion to a large degree, I also sympathise with the previous sentiment.

I'm not alone in this regard, from our good friends at WWN, Hardcore Atheists Now Equally Annoying As The Highly Religious, Finds Survey

Of course there is also the question as to whether Richard Dawkins even exists 😉

Hotblack Desiato · 30-01-2025 11:24PM

Point taken but the fact remains that ET schools are not non-denominational even if they sometimes pretend they are. 😁

If the State abolished the requirement to have religion taught in schools altogether, what way would ET go? I suspect many or most schools would carry on just as they are, gotta keep the 50% of parents putting their ET kids through RCC sacraments happy after all.

Isn't extremely vocal anyone annoying? It's inevitable that most people aren't as passionate as oneself may be about certain things so are liable to get annoyed if one goes on and on about them. I'll admit RD has particular perseverance in this area 😉

smacl · 31-01-2025 08:44AM

From a legal standpoint, Educate Together schools are secular and non-denominational, see "Statement of Clarification: The Educate Together Model of Education" The term non-denominational means not connected with a single specific religious denomination, whereas multi-denomination means connected to many religions. Neither term implies excluding religion.

While I can't speak for ET, my guess is that regardless of government directives, they would continue promoting their own stated ethos. This specifically and actively celebrates diversity in all its forms, including gender, culture, religion, race, ability etc. As such, they would continue to teach about the belief systems within our society while not allowing faith formation as part of the school day, as is currently the case. Personally, I think this is the way to go. If religious parents want use school facilities after hours to provide religious instruction, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Educate Together stresses parental involvement more than most schools and it seems reasonable to support them in their needs in return.

Yep, vocal people are no doubt annoying, and I include myself in that by times. At the same time, in an increasingly fractious world, I think it is important to avoid polarizing arguments and positions, and to be aware of the risks of desecularisation.

magicbastarder · 31-01-2025 10:04AM

The term non-denominational means not connected with a single specific religious denomination, whereas multi-denomination means connected to many religions.

so the terms are not mutually exclusive, despite appearing to be at first glance?

smacl · 31-01-2025 12:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119507#Comment_123119507

It comes down to which definitions you use, but consensus seems to be that multi-denominational means connected with two or more denominations, whereas non-denominational means not connected to any one specific denomination. By those definitions, Educate Together are clearly non-denominational, see previous linked articles. In the context of schools in Ireland, "Multi-denominational schools teach children about different religious views and belief systems equally", which again is closer to the definition of non-denominational.

Simples :)

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2025 04:04PM

From Citizens' Information: (and their failure to use the apostrophe does grate with me)

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/choosing-a-primary-school/

Educate Together schools are multi-denominational schools.

The 2024/25 enrolment figures for primary schools from Dept of Education are here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/primary-schools/

The school types listed are RCC, CoI, inter-denominational, Jewish, Methodist, multi-denominational, Muslim, Presbyterian, Quaker. None are non-denominational or blank or "other". (Incidentally all of the schools described as inter-denominational instruct through Irish.)

Finally:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/811e2-schools-reconfiguration-for-diversity/

The Schools Reconﬁguration for Diversity process, supporting transfers of schools to multi-denominational patrons in response to the wishes of school communities, aims to facilitate more availability of multi-denominational schools across the country. The Reconfiguration process involves existing schools changing their patron. This is called a transfer of patronage. Transfers of patronage may also involve a change of ethos (for example, a change from a denominational (religious) ethos to a multi-denominational ethos).

No mention of non-denominational schools. None of the documents linked on that page mention the term "non-denominational" either.

smacl · 31-01-2025 04:30PM

So what precisely is your definition of the term 'non-denominational' in both a general sense and as it relates to schools in Ireland? I get the impression you're treating it as a term that implies the exclusion of all religious expression, as is controversially the case in French schools.

happyoutscan · 31-01-2025 05:05PM

Ony when non-practicing families stop baptising their kids will the stranglehold of the church in primary schools subside.

Grow a pair and tell the grandparents to feck off.

DublinWriter · 31-01-2025 05:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120994#Comment_123120994

It's not about the grandparents, it's about trying to get them a place in school in the first place.

It's only when taxpayers and voters adjutate the government to get the Catholic Church out of the management of schools and hospitals that you'll really see any change.

But we're not very good at that.

smacl · 01-02-2025 08:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121012#Comment_123121012

Or simply to create schools that provide the type of education that most families want, which for many is so much more than just not having the Church involved in management. Given that we still have a majority of families in this country that identify as religious, and they are also the larger part of every community, schools also need to meet their needs if you're looking for political approval for those schools to be built. Going on the offensive and demanding that religion not be allowed anywhere near the school is no doubt the best way of ensuring such schools never get built. The option of allowing for religious instruction outside of the normal school day, carried out by members of the religious community, seems like the best possible compromise here to remove this stumbling block.

Educate together schools have been built based on the demands of local communities for fully inclusive secular education which recognises the very diverse requirements and preferences within the community. Promoting a strictly irreligious model, as per the French education system, is going to meet with majority disapproval for as long as the majority of people in this country identify as religious. The longer the Church controls primary schools, the longer the majority of people will remain Catholic. In my humble opinion, the aggressively anti-religious approach taken by Atheist Ireland / Teach don't preach with respect to education is doing more to preserve the status quo than improve the situation. Even the name Atheist Ireland already alienates those who have both strongly secular and religious inclinations.

To quote Lyndon B. Johnson, “Better to have your enemies inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.”

DublinWriter · 03-02-2025 04:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122740#Comment_123122740

I've never been a big advocate for the typical Irish "Ah shure, that's the way it is…don't meddle with it" argument.

Having kids opt out of Religious Education classes is the greatest way to mark them as 'different' to their classmates. Big pass on that from me.

Keeping religion out of schools is not just the French educational model, but even the American model too. It is too much to ask if we keep our educational institutions belief neutral?

smacl · 03-02-2025 07:03PM

Keeping religion out of schools is not just the French educational model, but even the American model too. It is too much to ask if we keep our educational institutions belief neutral?

Just asking clearly doesn't work, various people seem to have been asking in this country for decades with nothing to show for it. You need enough buy in from a large proportion of the population who are willing to work hard to get an acceptable solution in order to make progress. Even with the compromises discussed, Educate Together (which is belief neutral) have also met, and continue to meet, huge resistance from the Dept of Education.

Mark Hamill · 03-02-2025 07:32PM

Keeping religion out of schools is not just the French educational model, but even the American model too. It is too much to ask if we keep our educational institutions belief neutral?

Religious education =/= religious instruction. Schools can be belief neutral while teaching about religions.

Religions exist. Teaching kids that other religions exist and teaching them about different beliefs is an important part of making kids able to critically assess religious beliefs and claims presented to them during their lives. Ireland is not a secular non-religious country. It follows many catholic holidays and traditions, which all kids encounter all the time. Not having anything about any other religions in school, means those kids only ever really encounter catholicism, which enforces the notion that catholicism is the default.

I would not say that there has to be a specific isolated religious education class, but it should be part of some sort of social acceptance and responsibility class that has modules on ethics, equality and religion etc., which is what my daughters Educate Together does.

Peregrinus · 04-02-2025 01:56AM

Keeping religion out of schools is not just the French educational model . . .

It's not even the French eductational model. While the schools directly operated by the French state exclude religion entirely, the state also provides subventions for private and independent schools which may (and usually do) offer deminational (usually Catholic) religious instruction. There are conditions attached (non-discriminatory admission standards, participation in religious education must be optional, etc) but the bottom line is that the French state does fund schools that provide denominational religious education. (More years ago than I care to remember I briefly attended such a school as part of an exchange program.)

The US doesn't provide funding to schools that each religion, but that's because it doesn't provide funding to non-state schools, period. It's not because the funding of religious schools would be inconsistent with US constitutional principles, as can be seen when we look at third-level educastion in the US, where private universities recieve public funding on the same basis whether or not they have a religious character.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-02-2025 11:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121012#Comment_123121012

Catholic baptism has not been legally allowed to be an advantage in school admission for quite a few years now.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-02-2025 11:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120907#Comment_123120907

France is a different society and has its own issues and colonial baggage to deal with.

I think the ET approach is far better than most, but it panders too much to religion(s) to be described as 'non-denominational' in my book. Visits from churchy men for example, in effect acting as salesmen for their woo. Now maybe not all ETs have that, but at least some do.

As things stand, schools are obliged to support the "spiritual development" of children, whatever that is, so none can credibly be described as non-denominational as long as that regulation is in place.

A non-denominational school should not imho platform supernatural beliefs, it need not deny them but it should not give them any more status than mere myth.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-02-2025 12:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122740#Comment_123122740

The majority identify as belonging to a religion but they don't want to go to church and don't want to have to make any effort at all to give their children the traditional days out, if they want that they want the schools to do it.. but don't necessarily want lots of classroom hours to be devoted to that, either. shrug

"Even the name Atheist Ireland" - ah, the non-belief that still dare not speak its name! If someone is offended by the very term then I can't help them. Lucky isn't it that AI have not and will not attempt to establish any schools lest they offend anyone. There are far far worse things that have happened in living memory in our education system than someone being offended.

The basis of the education system should be rationality not delusion.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-02-2025 12:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123130880#Comment_123130880

If the numbers opting out are small, the RCC and its true-believer BOMs and principals can pretend that "there's nothing to see here" and everything is "grand" as it is, when it decidedly isn't.

Kids will always be "different" in some way, they will always find some marker of difference it's just what they do. Religion, clothes, where you live, music you like, sports teams you follow, etc etc they're always at it. I don't think they'd make an especial deal about religion unless their parents had trained them to do so - which does actively occur on this island ☹️

Hotblack Desiato · 15-02-2025 12:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123132270#Comment_123132270

Do these French private schools insist that Catholicism permeates the entire curriculum, as Irish schools do? Because this makes any real opt-out impossible.

The US Republicans tear up their Constitution when it suits them, especially when they can pander to conservative Christianity. It helps that their Supreme Court is packed for decades to come with brainless patsys. The idea that you can obtain a "degree" worth anything more than toilet paper from the likes of these radical religious "universities" is laughable in the rest of the developed world.

smacl · 15-02-2025 02:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173007#Comment_123173007

With respect, I suggest you look up the meaning of the term non-denominational. It does not mean non-religious, very far from it in fact. An education system that welcomes and respects diversity and inclusion is clearly going to explore that diversity rather than try to hide it. This includes taking time to understand the different traditions and beliefs within the various groups that make up our society. The danger of omitting this is risking "othering" various minority groups, as has historically been the case with atheists in this country. Having experienced a significant level of social exclusion myself during my primary school years, I wouldn't want to see it happen to anyone else, regardless of their creed. When I look at what's happening to DEI in the states, it underlines my belief that we should all work much harder at being tolerant.

smacl · 15-02-2025 03:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173042#Comment_123173042

I'm not the one you have to convince though, it is the opinion of that rather sizable majority of those folks that consider themselves Catholic, who don't go to church outside of weddings, funerals and baptisms, that you need to change to shift the status quo. Repeated remarks about 'bouncy castle Catholics' and zombie Christ is maybe not the way to go. While atheists might consider themselves more rational than religious folk, I'd question whether they're pragmatic.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-02-2025 07:58PM

There's already loads of unmet demand out there for non-Catholic education, if the government could get a plan together to satisfy that demand, that'd be great… They have a very unambitious target of 400 multi-denominational primary schools by 2030 but it seems no plan how to get there, and it's only five years away now.

Well, previous governments had that target but no plan, but it seems the current one doesn't even have the target… absolutely maddening

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2025/0121/1492127-multi-denominational-schools/

Can't blame nasty atheists 😊 for this, or how divestment has been an absolute disaster (except in the handful of places it's actually occurred, where it's been a great success) but generally speaking it's been a process designed to fail, and administered by the vested interest who wishes it to fail.

Richard Dawkins - J'accuse!

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