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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

1…738739741743744…1521

Comments

  • #22202
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618119#Comment_121618119

    it was a bit disingenuous to claim Deegan and Frawley for example weren't important to Leinster just based on European minutes alone.

    But I didn't say that...

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #22203
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    You did say you were going to leave it there though, and even you didn't believe that.



  • #22204
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618145#Comment_121618145

    I didn't expect to be misquoted again so quickly ;)



  • #22205
    Lia Sweet Racist
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Lia Sweet Racist


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618133#Comment_121618133

    I've no real interest in getting into another tedious edition of back and forth where you're claiming you didn't say something etc.

    This post from you:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615870#Comment_121615870

    This post has the clear implication that losing players like Ciaran Frawley, Max Deegan or Scott Penny would not be important (or make an "appreciable difference") to Leinster, and your reasoning in the post is purely based on their European minutes.



  • #22206
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618158#Comment_121618158

    This post has the clear implication that losing players like Ciaran Frawley, Max Deegan or Scott Penny would not be important (or make an "appreciable difference") to Leinster, and your reasoning in the post is purely based on their European minutes.

    ...which is a reasonable indicator of their relative importance to Leinster. No?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • #22207
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,311 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618177#Comment_121618177

    Nope, of course not. Leinster provide the national team with the vast majority of players. These players are important to Ireland, and are managed as such.

    The importance to the Leinster squad of those remaining players is measured in league minutes and European pool games, simply because the test players are obviously going to return, in the main, for the business end of the season.

    That simple fact alone does not make them deegans and frawleys of this world LESS important to Leinster, but actually MORE important as they are the ones who are generally available to play the most minutes.


    I really can't see why you can't grasp this.



  • #22208
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    The point is, Leinster get weaker! Munster get vastly stronger, just by offering gametime. A healthy Milne gets into the 23 for Munster. Leinster will probably have to sign Byrne, a lesser player, imo. Frawley makes the Munster 23 also. If he leaves, he backs up Crowley.

    I doubt 5 lads leave for Munster. But I expect 5 to leave for other provinces. Munster have signed some NIQ's that haven't helped their own players development, so I suppose poaching is cheaper and more efficient for them. It sucks for Leinster though. For me, Munster don't retain their culture and tribal identity.



  • #22209
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618128#Comment_121618128

    Not sure either are more talented than Penny (perhaps Hodnett the best of the 3 right now?), but they do have less competition at their clubs.



  • #22210
    Must love hardship
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Injury update...


    James Ryan came through the game against Stade Francais with no issues and will be available for selection this week

     

    Harry Byrne picked up an ankle injury at training and will be further assessed this week before a final decision is made on selection

     Ciarán Frawley  picked up a rib injury during the Stade Francis game and will be further assessed this week before a final decision is made on selection

     Michael Milne picked up a calf injury last week and will be unavailable for selection this week

     There are no further updates on: Jimmy O’Brien (neck), Martin Moloney (bicep), Alex Soroka (foot), Charlie Ngatai (calf), Cormac Foley (shoulder), Ross Byrne (arm) and Jamie Osborne (shoulder)



  • #22211
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618203#Comment_121618203

    I dunno, Syd.

    I just can't agree that Deegan and Frawley are more important to Leinster than the guys who have the highest minutes in Europe, like Keenan, James Ryan, Porter, Ringrose, VdF, Doris etc.

    The reason I say "no appreciable difference" is because Leinster's average and mean winning margin last season must be around 3 scores? I'd still strongly expect Leinster to be top of their pool even without Frawley and Deegan.



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  • #22212
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,311 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    last year Ross Byrne played in 20 games for leinster, total of 1200 minutes.

    johnny sexton played 5 games for leinster, totalling 260 minutes.

    extreme case but a prime example of the first choice player being appreciably less important than the understudy.


    for the craic ive calculated leinsters average winning margin AWAY from home last seasons league (the games these guys play in). i dont count home as some teams send their seconds for cannon fodder.

    it was 10 points. 8 away wins in the regular season out of 9 games

    definitely not wide enough to suggest the 3rd stringers would still be winning these games.

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • #22213
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619056#Comment_121619056

    Leinster could probably afford to have lost one or two of those mind you. Losing almost any player is going to have some impact, but it's not unreasonable to note that having an internationally capped 3rd choice no8 could be construed as overkill.



  • #22214
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,311 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619901#Comment_121619901

    What other provinces 3rd choice number 8 played 1050 minutes last season?

    Deegan isnt collecting splinters on a bench



  • #22215
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,311 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    just had a quick look at La Rochelles squad.


    they have 3 capped no.8s in Tanga, Cancoriet and Aldritt..... and also have Boudenhent who can step in there easily as well. Thats in a french system with a lot more availability for movement.



  • #22216
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619940#Comment_121619940

    I'm aware, but he's still definitively our 3rd choice number 8.

    Maybe we would play our first 2 choices more if we didn't have the luxury of Deegan behind them, or maybe we would have to rely more on academy lads. We'd probably get by. If we actually were constrained by some kind of salary cap he is one of the first players who would be cut.

    I don't think it's unreasonable for fans of other provinces to look at an internationally capped player in Leinster's squad who disappears completely in every major game and think he would be of better use elsewhere. "But he's useful when Ireland's potentially best player and also our backup Lions stating 8 are both unavailable" is going to be an excuse that rings a bit hollow.



  • #22217
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617894#Comment_121617894

    This type of comment shows an unsurprising utter lack of self-awareness given the never ending moaning from Munster fanbase about the departure of a single player who was for most of his time at Munster the third choice OH when all players were fit. Where was the appreciable impact of that move to warrant that reaction, that we will all never ever hear the end of if he becomes an even mid-tier level player?

    We don't even have to get started on the similar wails of unfairness when a certain NIQ lock moved on, like nearly all NIQ players do.

    Maybe take a look at your own provincial thread before going into others and telling fans how they should or shouldn't feel.



  • #22218
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620026#Comment_121620026

    Indeed!



  • #22219
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,311 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620009#Comment_121620009

    well do you accept that our internationally capped no 8 and our lions capped no8 are made unavailable to us on a much greater frequency than any other province?

    which results in out 3rd choice 8 being both capped and player significant numbers of minutes.

    as for ringing 'hollow' to other provinces, personally I couldn't give 2 craps. I do not want my club made weaker to supplement their shortcomings.

    i woudlnt be surprised if over 33% of the professional playing population in ireland are already leinster developed.

    the fact that these players want to stay at leinster and play league games and not feature in high end EC games, and the NOT force moves to other provinces speaks volumes in my mind.



  • #22220
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Rugby in Ireland is going to lose its shape. A Munster team with a glut of Leinster men playing is not a typical Munster team. Same with Ulster. Ulster using non Ulster players detracts from the derbies, imo.



  • #22221
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620009#Comment_121620009

    Why would it ring hollow? It would be ok if Deegan chose to leave. That's the breaks. He will still see tons of minutes if he stays. He's going to replace Conan in the future. Conan is getting on. Besides, Munster have massive Prospects available who will be brilliant players.



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  • #22222
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Conan's only 31. Culhane will be coming into peak form by the time Jack retires.



  • #22223
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620026#Comment_121620026

    The extent to which I've "told fans how they should or shouldn't feel" is as follows:

    I absolutely understand why Leinster fans are aggrieved when it happens

    I've little interest in debating the other points with you when it's clear you'd rather have a go at me than discuss the points in question.



  • #22224
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620106#Comment_121620106

    Fwiw, I'm absolutely not suggesting Deegan should move to Munster. I don't think it would be a good fit given the players there, as you mention. But Frawley could be a good fit.



  • #22225
    Lia Sweet Racist
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Lia Sweet Racist


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620466#Comment_121620466

    So Frawley can go from not being in the first 15 at Leinster to not being in the first 15 at Munster?



  • #22226
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,952 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620506#Comment_121620506

    He can go from being 3rd choice 10 (with pressure from Prendergast behind him) to 2nd choice 10. Or potentially 1st choice 12; Nankivell is on a 2 year deal, so if he signed for next season, it'd only be 1 season with both of them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #22227
    Lia Sweet Racist
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Lia Sweet Racist


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620534#Comment_121620534

    He’d be mad to consider either of those options as attractive. If he wanted to focus on 12, he’s got as good a chance at Leinster, especially if your proposal means waiting a year and hoping Munster can resist their natural instinct to sign another NIQ centre when Nankivell’s contract is up.

    If he wants to play 10 - Munster is also the worst possible place to go. There he’s joining a queue behind the presumptive Irish 10.

    If he wants to be a guaranteed starter then the right option for him is Connacht or Ulster.



  • #22228
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620583#Comment_121620583

    If he wants to be a guaranteed starter then the right option for him is Connacht or Ulster.

    Sure, but no one wants to go there. Which is probably the bigger problem that needs fixing.

    I would disagree that being behind the presumptive Irish 10 is the worst place to be though. He'd certainly get a lot more gametime at 10 there then he is likely to get at Leinster. Course I don't really think he's a 10 which colours my opinion.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #22229
    Lia Sweet Racist
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Lia Sweet Racist


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620603#Comment_121620603

    I also don’t think he’s a 10. He’s gotten plenty of opportunities there, and Leinster’s attack has never really looked fluid with him at the helm.

    The coaches are seeing him train at 10 regularly, and have also come to the viewpoint that he is not really a 10.

    Back to the point though - I can’t see how it’s a good move for him to go and become a guaranteed back up at this point in his career.

    Gametime isn’t something he’s ever lacked (when he stays healthy). He should only leave Leinster if he’s doing it to a situation which he thinks bolsters his international ambitions.



  • #22230
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619056#Comment_121619056

    I'm a simple man, Syd. You gather data, you get a like from me.

    And it's a fair point, if third-string players leave Leinster, it will have an effect somewhere.

    But the discussion is perhaps not really focusing on the most important issue (for me) which is - what do the players want?

    There are the Rhys Ruddocks of this world who seem to be happy guiding the team when internationals are away (well... current rumours aside).

    There are also the Joey Carberies who wanted a chance to be a first team player.

    One player might develop more in the 1200 minutes in and around URC league-stage games.

    Another player might want to experience the less frequent, but higher stakes scenarios, like Heineken Cup and playoff games.

    We tend to think of players as all guided by the same thing, but they're as diverse as any workforce.



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  • #22231
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620660#Comment_121620660

    This is absolutely fair, and I wouldn't suggest anyone forces anyone to move. All you can do is highlight their options and make an appealing case and leave it to them.

    Though I partly think this is one area where the provinces not being able to compete financially falls foul.



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