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Anti EV Nonsense

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  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    IMHO, I'd be inclined to steer well clear of the entire lot of these e-vehicles.

    However, I can obviously see that huge numbers of people are piling into the e-vehicle market.

    Is it just me or does anybody else find that there isn't any real gain in buying these electric-only vehicles, PHEVs or non-pluggable hybrid vehicles?

    I'd appreciate your thoughts on the realities of electric vehicles, please.

    Regarding a PHEV exclusively, I ain't sure if the amount of energy the liquid-fuelled engine expends in haulin' around a rock-heavy battery when in "fossil fuel only" mode is actually offset by the amount of energy outputted by the battery when subsequently changing over to "electric only" mode. Furthermore, the battery has to lug the weight of the engine when in "electric only" mode. So, unlike a fossil-only vehicle or an electric-only vehicle, which has to lug around people, pets, luggage, the interior, the chassis, the bodywork and not much else, not only do BOTH types of hybrid vehicles (plug or no plug) have to transport all of the aforementioned, these vehicles additionally have to haul the either battery when in hydrocarbon mode or the engine when in electric mode. How pointless is that?

    This is not to mention that it takes quite a serious amount o' grid electricity to recharge the batt. in a hybrid vehicle in the first place. On top of this, electricity ain't free-of-charge (excuse the pun). You've gotta pay financially for both the liquid hydrocarbon fuel AND ALSO the electricity to power a PHEV. That said, non-pluggable hybrid vehicles obviously don't require that on-the-double financial outlay. So draining neither grid power nor the utility bill ain't a problem for non-pluggable vehicles. Of course, this is not to mention that both the PHEVs and the non-pluggable hybrids are far costlier to buy than a fossil-frugal car such as the Kia Picanto, the Toyota Aygo, the Dacia Sandero or the Suzuki Ignis.

    If anythin' at all goes funny with the electric power system on the vehicle, only the dealership can rectify the issue with specialist high-tech stuff and a home mechanic or your local garage mechanic simply won't be able to help ya. On the other hand, these vehicles don't need any regular mechanical maintenance or replacement parts, such as anything from oil changes to blown-exhaust replacements. That said, I haven't seen much clarifying info on how many years do the batteries actually last in the vehicle before they need to be recycled. What's often not mentioned is how pricey it really is for a brand-new battery. I ain't certain myself, but it wouldn't be far off the cost of a full engine rebuild for a petrol/diesel car.

    I dunno, but there seems to be loads o' confusing information on how far these vehicles can be driven on electric power alone. It looks like the mileage capacity in all reality ain't as good as true-blue internal-combustion engines, from what I've read and heard at least.

    That is all besides the "ancillary support services" side of the energy equation. What I mean by that is the energy and financial resources used by the infrastructure that enables these vehicles to be viable in the first place. I literally dunno how much extra electric-grid power do the recycling firms use up in order for them to run the machine-operated processes needed to recycle/repurpose the batteries plus how much extra electricity are PHEVs and electric-only vehicles using off of the power grid. I have not seen any info on whether the owner of the e-vehicle has to financially pay for recycling/repurposing the worn-out battery.

    Of course, there are various environmental-impact factors, such as how many years of lithium does this planet have left going in the face of the ever-increasing sales of these vehicles (lithium is like coal, oil and gas - once it is, it is gone forever), if the power plugs for these vehicles are getting their juice from fossil fuels or not, what chemical reactions happen deep inside the landfill when the batteries eventually have to be dumped, how much landfill space will it take up to send the batteries into oblivion and probably a whole ton of other things I can't have thought of. I dunno all that much about the environmental side of things, 'cos I've primarily been concentrating about the energy and financial sides to these vehicles.

    All in all, these vehicles seem to use up more energy resources and financial capital than they appear to conserve.

    One oft-overlooked aspect of the zero-fossil mentality, is that there are exactly zero prototypes of all-electric versions of heavy moving machines. I think that the prospect of running a JCB on a battery sounds utterly laughable.

    I'd say that these e-vehicles will be viewed as red herrings in due course and be forgotten about, just like vehicles powered by LPG and hydrogen (remember them?). However, there will be a long way to go before the e-vehicle bubble bursts, because of the astronomical amount of media and manufacturer hype surrounding these fads.

    So, what do you all think? I'm very eager to find out if there are any true benefits to electric vehicles.

    Post edited by Co. Clare Man on


  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    If you think that electric vehicles are total duds, then you'd be inclined to have a read of this hyperlink click-able here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058284619/e-vehicles-are-a-farce



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    This nation needs an expansive rail network (not just passenger, but commercial also) in order for us to be able to continue to get around very far into the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    I fully agree with you. That's why Ireland needs a top-notch passenger AND commercial rail network, like this nation did many decades ago. We've literally paved over paradise to put up a prking lot. What about future generations of Irishmen and Irishwomen? What will they do for a mode of transport, unless we get going on a new-generation rail network?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Ireland has no fossil fuel. Every time you put fuel into an ICE car money is leaving the state.


    EVs use less fuel and 40% of that is from Renewables and that figure keeps climbing. So money is staying in the state.


    so tell me again about wasting resources



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  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    Ireland needs electric rail and not electric cars. The electric vehicles are not made in Ireland; they are made overseas. This affects the nation's balance of payments. Not that Ireland has a trade deficit or anything, but financial resources leave the nation to overseas car-makers, when rolling stock could be buil;t right here in Ireland. Some decades ago, the vehicles used by Bus Eireann were assembled out in Shannon. This nation can do the same with locomotive engineering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    What do we do for transport that is not suitable for trains (or walking or biking )?



  • Subscribers Posts: 40,987 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I demand a train stop outside my front door!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    We ought to use only city cars and buses (electric-powered or diesel-powered), motorbikes, trikes and heavy-goods vehicles (electric-powered or diesel-powered) on the nation's roads that are dual-carriageways and motorways. In villages, towns and cities, we can use all of the aforementioned modes of transport, in addition to e-scooters, e-bicycles and good ol' pedal-power bicycles.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    That sounds like a city I used to live in, La La Land.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    SUVs, PHEVs and other gas-guzzlers are unsustainable modes of transport. They were developed under the auspices of an affordable-oil and abundant-oil economy. They are transient technologies, unlike rail transport, which has been tried and tested for well over 150 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    The people of Ireland ought to use only city cars and buses (electric-powered or diesel-powered), motorbikes, trikes and heavy-goods vehicles (electric-powered or diesel-powered) on the nation's roads that are dual-carriageways and motorways. In villages, towns and cities, we can use all of the aforementioned modes of transport, in addition to e-scooters, e-bicycles and good ol' pedal-power bicycles. However, rail transport should be promoted above all other modes of transport, with the possible exception of shank's mare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    So "e-vehicles are a farce" is reduced to "no e-vehicles bigger than a city car and more trains please"

    good grief



  • Subscribers Posts: 40,987 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The chatbots gone into a loop...

    Needs to be turned off and back on again



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    I am sorry; I should have entitled this message forum "e-vehicles are a farce, yet trains are fantastic". Thank you for your reply!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    /out



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,418 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Exactly, it was obvious it was a chatbot after the first two posts, I don't know how that wasn't obvious to anyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    Hello Alun. I am not a computer program! I am a man from Clare! Why do people keep saying this about me?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Funny thread! Everyone.... you do realise its mid-term break!

    "Co Clare man" is just a bunch of teenage lads sitting around a playstation looking for a laugh and decided that they would probably get a reaction from the EV forum! 😀

    I have to agree with Gumbo's post.... "Don't throw bread on the road outside your house or else the gulls will keep coming back. Simple."



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Littered with localisms including referring to something as Gammy. I know chatbots are good but "Gammy", don't know.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    I, myself, don't like the idea of these computerised robots. They will banjax the World Wide Web unless whoever is in charge of them turns them off for good. That'd also save a fair bit o' the electric power consumption, when people are trying to stay warm and well, per the announcements on RTE Radio 1 which I've been hearin' all day during the breaks on Joe Duffy's Liveline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,820 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Don't feed the troll lads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    No, I am not a young 'un. You've gotten that wrong, m'lad. I was taught growing up that things aren't always as they appear. I don't like those time-wasting and power-hungry electronic video games. 'Tis sad to see so many young poeople wasting their good lives upon a television screen. I don't watch TV anymore, since about the time Pat Kenny walked off of RTE 1 and right into Newstalk. The radio is way better than the TV (that always was true, indeed and it is even more true nowadays).



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    Yes, indeed! The word "gammy" is indeed an all-Ireland term for what the British people would term "naff". I dunno what analagous word the Americans, Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians use, tho'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭Bovakinn


    Ok, I'm going to assume that your intentions are good, and are open for discourse. However, I am fully aware that I may be "taking the bait" so to speak.

    Firstly, giving your post the title "e-Vehicles are a Farce!" on a board dedicated to "e-Vehicles" probably isn't the best idea if you want a proper conversation on the subject. If you're looking to troll, and make people instantly judge you as someone ignorant and argumentative, then it's the perfect title. 


    Secondly, copying and pasting the same post in several threads is just downright silly, and makes me lean towards you being a troll. 


    I'll try and break down your original post, and address the main point of each paragraph. 


    That's a good point about hybrids, when running the ICE, you're hauling around a battery, and when in EV mode you're hauling around an engine, drivetrain, and fuel tank. 

    I believe that most people here would recommend a fully electric vehicle over a hybrid. What PHEVs are good at is short commutes and reducing emissions in towns and cities. They also have the added benefit of showing someone that for 90% of your driving, you may not need the range you believe you do when looking at full EVs. 


    Next, you mention the cost to charge the battery in a hybrid, let's take the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV [1] as an example, I've no idea why, it was the first one to come to mind. The battery size is 13.8kWh (units), but only 12.4Kwh is usable. Let's assume for the sake of easiness that you aare going to do a 0-100% charge overnight. We'll also assume that you have a 10% efficiency loss on charging and are using energia's EV car plan night rates[2].

    A full charge will cost ~€1.88 ( (12.4kWh + 1.24kWh) * €0.1375 ) and get you 25-35 miles (40-56km) of electric range [3]. My old Kia averaged out at 5.6l/100km, assuming the worse case on the Outlander's battery of 40km, in my Kia (which was much smaller than the Outlander) it would have used 2.4l of Diesel for that 40km, at the current prices near me of €1.60/l that would cost €3.58 for the same distance.

    It makes sense to pay for the electricity, as per kilometre driven, it is cheaper than "liquid hyrdocarbon fuel". 

    You then go on to say that "So draining neither grid power nor the utility bill ain't a problem for non-pluggable vehicles." That is true, but I would imagine you end up saving less overall by relying on the battery being charged by your driving, which a PHEV also does.


    People are converting older petrol and diesel cars to electric at home. Just like ICE cars, EVs are engineered machines, not black magic. My local mechanic can't do anything to EVs just yet (apart from things like brakes), but his son is currently doing a training course to work on them, this will improve with time and shift with the market.

    There are several cases of EVs doing a monster amount of miles, such as a Model S that did 1 million miles on 3 battery packs.[4] Most battery packs are a series of modules as opposed to one large single battery, as such, it is often possible to replace modules that have gone wrong instead of the whole battery.[5] 


    If you're talking about PHEVs still, the milage varies from model to model, driving conditions etc. Same as how the mileage of petrol/diesel cars varies. 


    All cars are recycled, or at least should be when they reach the end of their life. There is a push now for taking used EV batteries and using them for home storage [6][7], to complement people's solar panels.

    When a battery reaches its end-of-life, it still has material value. I'm not sure why "the owner of the e-vehicle has to financially pay for recycling/repurposing the worn-out battery" The owner would sell the battery for its scrap value, and the recycling firm would sell the components/minerals recovered from the battery for a profit. 


    Lithium generally takes up ~11% of a battery[8], nickel, or in the case of LPF batteries iron, makes up the majority of modern batteries. Lithium is the 33rd most abundant mineral on earth [9] so I don't think that is going to be a problem soon. Also, lithium is not " like coal, oil and gas - once it is, it is gone forever" as previously discussed, it can be recycled. In the future, there may be a tipping point where recycling lithium is more cost-effective than mining it, and research shows that batteries made from recycled materials may perform better than new ones. [10].

    Again, you're talking about dumping batteries after just discussing recycling them. Batteries are too valuable to just dump. 


    "All in all, these vehicles seem to use up more energy resources and financial capital than they appear to conserve"

    I don't believe so and haven't seen any sources supporting such a claim. 


    "There are exactly zero prototypes of all-electric versions of heavy moving machines" Caterpillar must have skipped the prototype stage then. [11][12]

    Why does a battery JCB sound utterly laughable? Pound for pound an electric motor will generate a lot more torque than a diesel, also imagine how much nicer it would be working beside one with no fumes or engine noise coming from it. 


    I think if EVs were a red herring, they would have faded into obscurity again in the last decade. There's an interesting documentary called "Who Killed the electric car" that's worth a watch if you're genuinely interested. 


    From reading your posts since your original post, it seems that any discourse around the benefits of EVs is shot down by you mentioning that rail would be a better alternative, and moving the goalposts of your points. Unfortunately, this country is too sparsely populated for rail to be a viable option for most people. While I do agree that Ireland needs a better rail system, it would still be a second-rate system for most of the country leaving people relying on private transport. 

    With the current state of EVs, they're not a perfect solution. The public charging network still needs work and our electricity generation isn't 100% green. But progress is being made on both of these fronts. Just because EVs aren't a perfect solution, they shouldn't be dismissed when they are objectively better than the alternative of sticking with ICE cars. 



    [1] https://www.mitsubishi-motors.ie/discover/heritage/explore-outlander-phev

    [2] https://www.energia.ie/plans-and-switching-info/ev  

    [3] https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mitsubishi/outlander/87981/long-term-test-review-mitsubishi-outlander-phev

    [4] https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-s-to-clock-one-million-miles/

    [5] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117099861273219073

    [6] https://www.nissan.ie/experience-nissan/electric-vehicle-leadership/xstorage-by-nissan.html

    [7] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/02/15/how-safe-are-second-life-ev-batteries-as-home-energy-storage-devices/

    [8] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1203083/composition-of-lithium-ion-batteries/

    [9] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/lithium#:~:text=Lithium%20is%20present%20in%20the,%2C%20ground%2C%20and%20sea%20waters.

    [10] https://spectrum.ieee.org/recycled-batteries-good-as-newly-mined

    [11] https://youtu.be/tWt61YSQWK0?t=561

    [12] https://www.freethink.com/energy/mining-truck#:~:text=By%20Kristin%20Houser-,November%2025%2C%202022,mine%20site%20of%20the%20future.%E2%80%9D

     



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    In any event, is anybody on this vehicle-oriented message forum sharin' my long-held opinion that group-based modes of transport such as buses and trains are far more green than privately owned passenger cars are?

    Honest opinions on Ireland's upcoming transportation dilemma are much in-need.

    Thanks in advance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭splashthecash


    What are you looking to get out of these posts here this morning? It sounds like you have your mind made up already that e-vehicles are not for you so what is you end goal exactly as it just seems like you are wasting both your time and other peoples time



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Co. Clare Man


    Also, has anyone here purchased a PHEV or a non-pluggable hybrid vehicle and shortly afterwards, felt that their petrol/diesel-powered mode of transport was somewhat superior?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭splashthecash




This discussion has been closed.
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