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My Plan to Achieve Energy Freedom - The Road to Zero Energy Bills

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The heat pumps section there is incorrect as far as I can tell and is best disregarded. There is no differential pricing like this for incremental consumption of electricity.

    Not really. The cost for band DD includes the cost of standing charges. But the standing charges are a ‘sunk cost’. You have to pay them whether you have a heat pump or not.

    The correct cost to use for comparison is the cost per additional kWh consumed, ie the unit price the supplier quotes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    Is 21c per unit not a standard enough price? Of course there are discounts available and one year offers and all that (think mine is 16c per unit) but in fairness to the SEAI they can't really cover all the possibilities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    ercork wrote: »
    Is 21c per unit not a standard enough price? Of course there are discounts available and one year offers and all that (think mine is 16c per unit) but in fairness to the SEAI they can't really cover all the possibilities.

    From a quick perusal 19.86c is the highest price in the market for an incremental unit on a 24h tariff. The SEAI price comes from an EU study that is not really relevant to pricing energy for heating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,353 ✭✭✭randombar


    I'm still not sure if there is a return on heat pumps.

    Cost:
    Heat Pump cost €8,500 (€12,000 - €3,500 SEAI grant)

    Standard calculations are a 50% cost saving based on existing gas or oil.

    So I've you've a well insulated house (a requirement for HP) your oil bill could be in the region of 700/800 per year (using my own for figures). Adding a heat pump would save 400 per year. 21 years before you see a return? I know there are comfort considerations etc. but the HP cost needs to fall to 4 to 5 k or the COP needs to increase a good bit for it to be seen as a viable solution yet.

    @Conor20 just wondering how much the retrofit of UFH was per Sqm?


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,688 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    +1 GaryCocs

    I'm far from convinced "upgrading" to a heat pump system is wise, even with the huge subsidy courtesy of the tax payer and even if your house is already very well insulated

    I like the idea of it and moving away from fossil fuels to fully renewable energy is very important. But not at all costs. And certainly not it the cost projections do not hold in real life.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭Bif


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    I'm still not sure if there is a return on heat pumps.

    Cost:
    Heat Pump cost €8,500 (€12,000 - €3,500 SEAI grant)

    Standard calculations are a 50% cost saving based on existing gas or oil.

    So I've you've a well insulated house (a requirement for HP) your oil bill could be in the region of 700/800 per year (using my own for figures). Adding a heat pump would save 400 per year. 21 years before you see a return? I know there are comfort considerations etc. but the HP cost needs to fall to 4 to 5 k or the COP needs to increase a good bit for it to be seen as a viable solution yet.

    @Conor20 just wondering how much the retrofit of UFH was per Sqm?
    Another aspect to consider is replacement costs...how long do they last v standard boiler?


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,688 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Another aspect is when a heat pump goes wrong, that there don't seem to be that many options to have it fixed. While any plumber can fix a gas / oil boiler. A few threads about it in the forum recently. And a gas / oil boiler rarely goes wrong, in the first 10 years of its life anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭vincenzolorenzo


    unkel wrote: »
    +1 GaryCocs

    I'm far from convinced "upgrading" to a heat pump system is wise, even with the huge subsidy courtesy of the tax payer and even if your house is already very well insulated

    I like the idea of it and moving away from fossil fuels to fully renewable energy is very important. But not at all costs. And certainly not it the cost projections do not hold in real life.

    I've been wondering about this too lately.

    New builds are very energy efficient and have a very low heat load. DHW is actually a bigger demand than space heating, and as this needs a higher temperature than space heating surely you're getting a low CoP? So new build owners are spending a small fortune to put in a heating system that needs to deliver a small total kWh compared to older housing stock?

    Although traditionally viewed as poor has anyone looked at storage heaters for new builds? Much lower capital cost, run at night rate electricity keeps running cost down. Not as cheap to run as HP but surely much better payback?


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,688 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Good points. We are a family of 5 with 3 teenage daughters and we use lots and lots of (really) hot water. I wonder how efficient a heat pump is in doing that. You could of course do most of it during the cheap night rate electricity, provided you have a big cylinder (ours is 360l but the standard traditional cylinder is just 120l)

    As for space heating, I am using mostly electric heaters that actually make me more money than they cost me in electricity this winter :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭mike_2009


    Agree about the points made about Heat Pumps. Although - Solar panels weren't "cost effective" 10 years ago, but are very nicely priced now. Efficiencies still improving too albeit slowly. Batteries will continue to get cheaper over the next 10 years and there are other forms of storage possible too (heat batteries).
    Heat Pumps aren't around as long or as popular as Gas/Oil boilers but these have peaked in terms of efficiency and price. Hybrid heat pump / gas / oil boilers are available today and over the next 10 years the number of heat pumps manufactured and installed will drive prices down and skillsets up. At least that's what should happen!
    I wonder about risks to gas/oil supplies but even our Electricity supply relies heavily on gas but in 10 years hopefully less so. If we have turbulent times ahead due to climate migration and national isolationism I wouldn't be betting heavily on an imported fuel. I'd even say electricity power cuts will become a regular occurrence given our current power sources and the lack of new capacity/retiring of old plants.
    Should each household hang onto alternate means of space heating / water heating but how far out do you go on that particular branch?
    Agree that if you're lucky enough to live in a newer house space heating is relatively easy compared to hot water. Night rate for hot water 1:1 is still affordable but look at all the taxes add to the Electricity bill, prices still rising. CO2 heat pumps are better geared to delivering higher temps but may not be suitable to the Irish Climate (higher humidity) from what I've heard. Still the idea of getting 3 or 4 times the unit of heat per kWh is attractive. Will it last 10 years though? With annual maintenance there's no reason it shouldn't last over 20 years if it's a good quality model from what I've read.
    Anyone have any hot springs near them they can tap into?
    Excellent points made by everyone here and thanks to the O.P. for his recent update - inspiring!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭Conor20


    Hi everyone - long time, no see! For a while I've been meaning to look at the up-to-date data on our generation, energy costs, etc and check in on payback of all of the energy investments we've made. Here goes. 

    Five years ago we heated our house with 13,813 kWh of gas each year. We powered our car with 8,173kWh of petrol each year. And we powered our house with 8,000kWh of electricity. Today, we have electrified all of our energy consumption with an electric heat pump and electric car, and we generate a lot of that electricity ourselves (see the post here) at a cost that is locked in and inflation proof at a fraction of what it costs to buy electricity from the grid for the next 23 years at least (the warranty period of the solar panels is 25 years, they'll probably go on generating for another few decades thereafter). 

    If you're wondering whether it still makes sense to make the same switch - the answer is yes. It makes even more sense than it did two years ago. Energy costs have skyrocketed while the cost of SolarPV, Heat Pumps and Electric Cars (particularly second hand electric cars as we're two more years into the switch to EVs, so another wave of EVs has hit the second hand market) has stayed roughly static if you shop around - price decreases have roughly offset general inflation, unlike most other areas. 

    Insulation and Heat Pump

    Since installation, our heat pump has been cranking out heat for the house, and all the hot water we need, without a single issue. It's an 8kW Hitachi R32 Yutaki-SCombi 2 5HP 200L. Heat Pumps can be 200-400% efficient by virtue of that fact that they are not creating heat, they are simply pumping it in from the outside. For every one watt of electricity you power the Heat Pump with, it delivers 2-4 watts of heat into your house. The outside unit of our heat pump looks like this up on the wall: 

    If you read back through the post about our installation of the heat pump, at the time, the heat pump cost €0.03 / kWh of heat delivered to the house versus gas which cost €0.06 / kWh of delivered heat (and €0.08 /kWh for oil). Gas and oil costs have increased more than electricity since, so the savings from the heat pump have increased significantly since then. Gas now costs €0.14 per kWh with a €0.382 standing charge per day (.382 * 365 = €139.43 per year). Gas costs have also led to increased electricity prices, but because wind generation represents about half of all electricity generation in Ireland in winter, gas and oil costs will likely continue to increase more than electricity now and into the future. 

    SolarPV

    A snapshot of electricity prices on offer in Ireland on the day I write this: 

    Two years ago, when we installed the SolarPV system on the roof, electricity cost €0.19 / kWh from the grid. The SolarPV system generates electricity at €0.07 / kWh over it's lifetime (cost of the system divided by all the kWh it will generate in it's warrantied period). So for every kWh it generated, it was saving us €0.12. Flash forward two years - at time of writing, Electricity now costs about €0.48 / kWh as a standard rate in Ireland (minus whatever discount you can wangle from the provider!). Solar still generates electricity at €0.07 / kWh and will do so until the end of its 25 year warranty. So each kWh the PV array generates now saves €0.48 / kWh - €0.07 / kWh = €0.41 / kWh. Before the installation, I had estimated the PV system would generate 4,260 kWh per year. This turned out to be an underestimate - with two full years of data now, it has averaged 4,975 kWh generation per year. The simple calculation for the savings of the SolarPV system at today's electricity prices, if we use the electricity during the day, would be 4,975 kWh * €.41 saving versus buying from the grid = €2,039.75 per year. This saving calculation will vary for you depending on whether you use all of the electricity generated during the day or not so take this into account when calculating the ROI for installing PV, but a simple message to take is that the recent increases in energy prices have drastically reduced the time it takes for SolarPV to pay for itself. 

    The other major development since we installed the SolarPV system is that there is now a Clean Export Guarantee in place in Ireland whereby anyone with a SolarPV system installed will be paid for the generation they feed back into the grid (see more here, and this is one supplier's FAQ on it). The rate varies with each supplier. As of August 2022, rates for each supplier were: 

    SSE Airtricity 24 cents / kWh

    Pinergy 21 cents / kWh

    Energia 18 cents / kWh

    Electric Ireland 14 cent / kWh

    Bord Gais 18.5 cent / kWh

    Flogas 20 cents / kWh

    If you have a SmartMeter, your export will be measured with that and you'll be paid for every kWh you export. If you don't, an estimated export number is used of, I believe, 35% of the estimated generation of your SolarPV system. While our supplier is yet to make the first payment, they have confirmed when they start it, it will be backdated to February 2022. If the formula is indeed 35% of estimated generation, our CEG Payment would come in at €417.9 per year. If this is the case, and it remains stable for the remaining 23 years of the SolarPV's system's warrantied lifetime, it alone will cover the cost of the system ..even before the savings of the other 75% of the generation which we consume, which now save us in the region of €.40 / kWh. I'll write an update here when we receive the first few payments and have a good yearly estimate at what the CEG payments will work out at and how it impacts the economics of a SolarPV system, but in any case, now that it is more than zero, it will only improve the numbers on what they were previously. 

    These two things - (1) that electricity prices have gone up, and additionally (2) we are now paid for our excess solar generation - means the payback I initially calculated on the system underestimated the payback considerably - it will pay for itself much more quickly now as it is saving us more money than we had originally calculated because the cost of electricity has increased over time since we installed it. While the price rises have been quite extreme this last year owing to geo-political factors, energy is likely to continue increasing in price broadly over the next 10-15 years even if energy generation costs fall, to pay for new transmission and distribution infrastructure. Installing rooftop solar continues to be a very good financial investment, and a means of reducing your exposure to the risk of energy markets. If you can get together the cost of installing SolarPV on your house (and remember there is an SEAI grant available of €2,500), I find it hard to think of any other alternative investment for that money with as good a return on investment, nor the certainty with which it will return money. 

    Here's an updated chart of our monthly electricity consumption and generation these last few years: 

    We made changes over time which you might notice as the months progress in the chart - switching from a petrol car to an electric car meant higher electricity consumption but vastly reduced costs overall as it removed our petrol bills entirely (and most of our road tax and maintenance costs), switching from a gas central heating to an electric heat pump increased our electricity consumption again but removed entirely our gas bills, then installing the bigger 6kW SolarPV system in 2020 allowed us to generate a lot of the electricity required to run the house, electric car, and heat pump ourselves outside of the winter months, greatly reducing the cost to run it all. 

    So all up, we haven't experienced any issues with insulating and switching to a heat pump for heating, an electric car for transport (though we cycle wherever possible as that is cheaper than anything!), and generate some of that electricity ourselves with SolarPV. The payback periods for each have reduced significantly as energy costs have increased in the last two years. They've also meant a lot less anxiety about those energy costs. If you haven't considered making the same changes, I recommend you do now. 

    Post edited by Conor20 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    When you look at the night rate above and the amount of wind energy being generated at night should we not see a push towards storage heaters?

    With so many people working from home they deliver a consistent stream of heat all from electricity at off peak times. Less pressure on the grid. They could also have batteries attached or battery storage somewhere in the house, allowing use during the day but off the night rate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,688 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yes we should. I'm having an eddi installed this week and intend to use it mainly to power 2 storage heaters, with night rate and with excess PV

    We have 3 people working from home in the house every day, trying to minimise gas use, for the planet and the wallet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭Conor20


    Yes - absolutely! Both for the fact that there is more wind generation relative to demand at night, and the fact that electricity is cheaper at night with a SmartMeter or a Day/Night meter (outside of the summer months when you have excess solar generation during the day of course, which is zero marginal cost to you). Energy Storage is the answer - whether it's a storage space heater, or a battery, or underfloor heating. We installed an 8kWh battery alongside the SolarPV system and we can also time that to charge through the SolarPV portal. We have it charge overnight for the winter months so it can power the house during the day. Looking at our most recent bill, the daytime electricity cost was €0.43 / kWh and the night time is €0.26 / kWh. We charge it with 8kWh and that plus the few kWh of solar we get each day in winter gets us most of the way through the day without touching the grid. Each day that saves 8 * (€0.43 - €0.26) * 6 months around winter * 30 days per month = €244.80 each year.

    On wind generation being relatively higher in Ireland at night, you're spot on. For anyone here, you can look at the real-time current energy makeup in Ireland at https://www.smartgriddashboard.com/#all . Because demand is higher during the day, on average wind will be a higher percentage of generation at night, and sometimes it is curtailed when there is too much, so if you can move as much of your demand - charging your car, charging a battery, charging a storage heater, etc - to the night time, it will be both cheaper for you, facilitate more wind energy on the grid, and make electricity cheaper for everyone overall. It's also good in that it minimizes the amount of gas that needs to be burned to power the grid, which is obviously a useful contribution in the present gas constrained situation.

    What I like about having energy storage is it gives you a way, if you want to, of optimizing your energy costs. We continue to have fun looking for ways to do this to save more energy and money. If you remember, the last week in September was unusually warm and sunny this year. Anticipating cold temperatures and high energy prices over the winter, we decided to use the abundance of Solar generation that week to turn on the heating function of the Heat Pump and start storing lots of heat energy into the floor of the house via the underfloor heating. Underfloor heating, if you remember from photos of our install (I'll paste one below), are simply pipes connected to the hot water heating system which run through the concrete under the floor:


    The concrete is 20cm-30cm thick and covers the 65 odd square meters of the ground floor. The concrete is essentially a very large thermal mass under the house. It takes lots of heat energy to heat up to room temperature, but once it's warm, it stays warm for a long, long time. Think of it like the titanic - it takes a huge amount of energy to get it going, but once it's going, it takes miles and miles to stop it. While underfloor heating isn't essential to switch to a heat pump (I know two houses who have recently switched over to heat pumps without underfloor heating and they are warm and toasty), it is slightly more efficient with a heat pump and keeps the house at a very consistent temperature. Long story short, that week, we turned 100kWh of SolarPV, run through the heatpump at a COP of 4 because it was 19C outside, into 400kWh of heat energy stored into the concrete and tiles of the floor area of the house. The floor, and as a result the house, has been nice and warm since with minimal additional heating. We basically blunted the heating costs for the house for the first part of the winter with a week of solar generation in September. 



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